Anyone else like to think that the Senators have 0 Cups (rather than 11)

[Stonewall]

For several reasons.

1. It's obviously not the same franchise.

2. All but one of those teams weren't the champions of the NHL. And when you look at the Challenge Cup era you can see a system that obviously wasn't well-refined like it is today. In the Challenge Cup era there were multiple Cup winners every year.

3. All this happened in the early 1900s. There aren't many hockey fans alive today, let alone on HFBoards, who saw the Senators win the Stanley Cup even in 1927 (a series that had tie games BTW).

Of course the original team should be remembered, but it's just not the same. When the Kings won the Cup, they had the distinction of being the first Kings team to win it all. The modern Sens should get the same.

 

[Benjamin]

They count. Same franchise.

 

[One M0RE YEAR]

if leaf fans chirp i say we have 11 cups. reality is the new franchise has 0..

 

[SensHero]

No. You take credit for everyone we have.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Original 6 teams count the cups they won while playing in different arenas for different owners. The only constant has been the team name.

Im not sure how the Senators are all that different. Todays Sens have as much in common with their cup wins as the Habs, Leafs and Bruins have with their earliest championships.

Whatever though, it doesn't mean much at the end of the day.

 

[McManked]

I asked this question last year.

Here were the results:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1146995&highlight=

 

[SensHero]

I asked this question last year.

Here were the results:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1146995&highlight=

Maybe if someone asks again this year the answer will be different.......

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Maybe if someone asks again this year the answer will be different.......

It's the offseason. We need something to discuss

 

[saskriders]

The team technically didn't fold, but "suspended operations" or something like that. (The Renegades did the same thing, and Jeff Hunt purchased them instead of an expansion team) The league gave the team a "certificate of reinstatement", so I guess from a business point of view you could say that the team is the same.

 

[Stonewall]

Original 6 teams count the cups they won while playing in different arenas for different owners. The only constant has been the team name.

Im not sure how the Senators are all that different. Todays Sens have as much in common with their cup wins as the Habs, Leafs and Bruins have with their earliest championships.

Whatever though, it doesn't mean much at the end of the day.

If you ask me, Original 6 teams taking credit for their Cup wins before expansion is sort of silly. They were still beating up on the expansion teams until the Flyers finally won in 74.

But still, at least all but 3 of those happened in the NHL Champion era. And the teams that won those 3 other Cups directly became the Habs and Leafs of today.

 

[McManked]

For those who are wondering, the NHL officially recognizes that modern Ottawa Senators as the same team as the old Ottawa Senators.

In the NHL's eyes, as well as the organizations, the cups belong to the same organization.

 

[canadiancreed]

If you ask me, Original 6 teams taking credit for their Cup wins before expansion is sort of silly. They were still beating up on the expansion teams until the Flyers finally won in 74.

Should we discount Cups won because there wasn't as many teams as today? By that logic all cups before 1998 were "easier" since it wasn't the same amount of teams as current champions had to fight through.

Diminishing Cup wins because of era is pretty insulting to the effort the former champs had to make to get there, be it two rounds, four, multiple defense per year, or what have you.

tl;dr: Same team, Cups count. The end.

 

[Brodie]

For those who are wondering, the NHL officially recognizes that modern Ottawa Senators as the same team as the old Ottawa Senators.

In the NHL's eyes, as well as the organizations, the cups belong to the same organization.

no they don't, if you get the NHL's official record books annually they list the Sens as having never won the Cup and having been founded in 1990. There was a big to do at the time with the NHL "reactivating" the team, but it appears that it was all PR.

Now, you guys are welcome to think of the team as having won 11 Cups. But the NHL doesn't count all of them, just like they don't count all the Habs or Leafs claimed Cups.

 

[Stonewall]

For those who are wondering, the NHL officially recognizes that modern Ottawa Senators as the same team as the old Ottawa Senators.

In the NHL's eyes, as well as the organizations, the cups belong to the same organization.

When did that happen? When they first granted Ottawa an expansion team I doubt Senators was an absolute lock as the name.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

If you ask me, Original 6 teams taking credit for their Cup wins before expansion is sort of silly. They were still beating up on the expansion teams until the Flyers finally won in 74.

But still, at least all but 3 of those happened in the NHL Champion era. And the teams that won those 3 other Cups directly became the Habs and Leafs of today.

Agreed, what happened before I was born when it comes to something as superficial as sports doesn't really concern me. I enjoy watching it now, I hope the team I decided to root for wins the big prize at some point in my life.

 

[Iggy77]

Why are the banners hanging in the arena if it's not counted as the same franchise(yes technically it isn't)? Why is Frank Finnigan's number retired here? Did the NHL "reinstate us"?

 

[McManked]

no they don't, if you get the NHL's official record books annually they list the Sens as having never won the Cup and having been founded in 1990. There was a big to do at the time with the NHL "reactivating" the team, but it appears that it was all PR.

Now, you guys are welcome to think of the team as having won 11 Cups. But the NHL doesn't count all of them, just like they don't count all the Habs or Leafs claimed Cups.

Whatever.

The org recognizes it by having banners in the rafters.
The league recognizes it by saying that they are the same franchise, even if it was PR.

The record book doesn't really matter.

 

[saskriders]

Here is another thing to note.

Defending the Stanley Cup didn't count as a win (unless it is a new year or something, a little unclear. The Sens won or defended the cup 18 times (19 if you count a tied series). That makes their Stanley cup finals record 18-4-1 (if you count 2007)

 

[McManked]

^The banners are right there. It's clear that some part of the organization and league recognize them

-

That being said, I haven't personally experienced my beloved team winning a Stanley Cup, and really, that's what matters.

Technically, the Sens were given a certificate of reinstatement when they re-entered the league, so technically yes.

From the last thread.

 

[Stonewall]

Should we discount Cups won because there wasn't as many teams as today? By that logic all cups before 1998 were "easier" since it wasn't the same amount of teams as current champions had to fight through.

Diminishing Cup wins because of era is pretty insulting to the effort the former champs had to make to get there, be it two rounds, four, multiple defense per year, or what have you.

tl;dr: Same team, Cups count. The end.

I didn't say they shouldn't, I just said it's silly. Montreal will probably keep its most Cups record for another century (to be fair to them they also have the most Cups since expansion).

 

[Knave]

I wasn't alive back then, same thing with most Leaf fans on these boards for their cups.

So if anyone is going to get into a debate about cups, I really couldn't care less if we had 11 or 0 in our history. I want to see them win one while I'm cheering them on, right now.

 

[BK201]

In my mind we have 0 cups.

But tbh the leafs haven't had one in 50 years or so, so I don't think teams like that have a lot to brag about either or a lot of relevance.

 

[Fandlauer]

0 cups.

When a team disappears for 60 years, I do not consider the reincarnation of it to be the same team.

 

[Iggy77]

When did that happen? When they first granted Ottawa an expansion team I doubt Senators was an absolute lock as the name.

I may be wrong but I believe the original Senators were officially known as Ottawa HC(Hockey Club). They were called the Senators and Silver Seven but that was never the official name of the team.

Although I grew up in Ottawa and had no idea this city once had an NHL team until they started bidding for a franchise

 

[FuriousSenator]

I find the opinion that the current franchise won those 11 cups completely laughable.

Sorry, no, the Ottawa Senators that currently play in Kanata have 0 cups since their founding in 1992-1993.

Hanging the banners makes a nice homage to previous teams that played in this city in the past, but is nothing more than that. Anything else is completely absurd. Outside of name and locale, there is absolutely nothing linking the two franchises.

I think an appropriate 'grace period' where an old franchise folds and a new franchise emerges (and takes on the old championships/records and such) would be like...20 years? Maybe 40. But 60 odd years between franchises?? That's just too big of a stretch.

The Leafs and Canadiens have sufficient claim on their earliest cups simply because of their unbroken history in my opinion.