Anyone else feel you cant just analyze secondary assists at face value?

[Filthy Dangles]

To me secondary assists should hold no value. Even i can get a secondary assist in NHL and i havent been on ice since i was 7. Say i am the goalie and i gently pass the puck to Bobby orr who bring it up to wayne who shots it in the goal. What did i do here that could be as meaningful as the goal?

It doesnt have to be orr or wayne it can be Cale and Mcdavid too. it should be 0,25 0,5 for secondary/primary/1 for goal if anything.

I'm never leaving this website

 

[WarriorofTime]

How many more secondary assists would a player like Ovechkin have if they awarded an assist to a goal scorer who passes to the player who passed it back to them prior to the goal? I imagine a fair chunk of them. In that way, secondary assists are 'rewarding' non goal-scorers a bit too heavily.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

You cannot analyze secondary assists, nor primary assists, nor goals, at face value.


But we're dealing with averages here. Secondary assists are less predictive of success than primary assists or goals. This is verifiable by just looking at data.

Drop the word 'success', the information only says they are harder to predict in the future than goals/Assists not having anything to do with success.

As others have said, that doesn't mean they were any less valuable in terms of the creation of the goal(s).

Perhaps, I am just not a fan of sloppy secondaries.

Dion Phaneuf has entered the chat.

 

[WarriorofTime]

This is another reason why I’m so skeptical of offensive d-men who suck in their own zone but also aren’t goal scorers in their own right.

You're "skeptical" of puck movers? It might be the most important thing a defenseman does.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

I'm never leaving this website

That's the funniest argument in here , even I can score a tap in to mcdavid or get an apple playing with Ovi. Really shows how clueless people are

Its hilarious , as if these players haven't spent their entire lives working hard to play on a NHL top line 18+ minutes a night.

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

They told me to forget everything I know about slip covers... So I did

 

[Ratsreign]

You just can’t throw a blanket over all of them. They vary from the goalie stopping and leaving the puck behind the net to a brilliant rush out of the d-zone into the o-zone.
I agree that some secondary assists probably shouldn’t get a point, but many of them are probably worth two points.

 

[banks]

So you dont think passing to the guy who make the final play to score the goal is easier than scoring the goal? Ask yourself, Would you be able to be on an NHL team and fumble your way up the ice and score a goal against defenders and an NHL goalie or would it be more likely for you to get a point by passing it to Mackinnon a few times and hope that he get it up the ice and score?

What about times when the defenceman springs a 2-on-1, and the puck carrier isn't confident to shoot, and looks for the pass the whole way, makes the pass and the shooter scores. That primary assist was the gimmie, but the goal and the secondary were the big deal.

Or what about a tic-tac-toe passing play on a PP where the goalie get's overcommitted before the puck ends up with the bumper guy beside the net. That's a gimmie goal, created by both creative passers who got assists.

There's times when each component is the gimmie.

I could stand beside the net on a PP like Darcy Tucker and wait for some tap-in goals a lot easier than a I could make clean outlet pass out of my zone under pressure (landing a secondary).

 

[sinDer]

So you dont think passing to the guy who make the final play to score the goal is easier than scoring the goal? Ask yourself, Would you be able to be on an NHL team and fumble your way up the ice and score a goal against defenders and an NHL goalie or would it be more likely for you to get a point by passing it to Mackinnon a few times and hope that he get it up the ice and score?

The only answer to this is: it depends.

I wouldn’t be able to carry the puck and make plays, but I could just be standing by the net and a puck could hit me and go into the net.

For players, I think it all evens out at the end. Sometimes they’ll get « easy » points and other times they won’t even get a point after a big play.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

You can't analyze a single stat on face value. There are a lot of manufactured stat lines that have no correlation to winning.

 

[Slapshot Sultan]

Current point system indicates that the 2nd assist is not just sometimes the most important play, it's the most important play as often as a goal or 1st assist. So on average a goal is as impressive as 2nd assist.

 

[Rodgerwilco]

Very few stats in hockey (or most sports for that matter) can be analyzed at face value. There is so much nuance and situational differences to statistics.

You can come up with countless examples of how a goal, primary assist, and secondary assist would each have different levels of 'importance' to scoring. What I've noticed is that most people who fixate on secondary assists are doing it to criticize specific players and downplay their impact on the ice and/or justify ranking another player above them.

 

[Grifter3511]

Drop the word 'success', the information only says they are harder to predict in the future than goals/Assists not having anything to do with success.

As others have said, that doesn't mean they were any less valuable in terms of the creation of the goal(s).


Dion Phaneuf has entered the chat.

You got it backwards! Double Dion was all about Avery's sloppy seconds.

 

[Budz]

I would like to see them captured as such.

Goals
Primary Assist
Secondary Assist

 

[zappa4ever]

it's the awarding of the assists/secondary assists

some are deserved, some aren't, sometimes it's the tertiary pass that was the catalyst, sometimes it's the goal scorer who "should" have the 2nd assist, sometimes it's simply deflected off someone's ass unbeknownst to the player

a lot of ins, a lot of outs, a lot of what have yous

 

[NVious]

Secondary assists and empty net goals shouldn't be counted (unless my favorite player is getting them)

 

[Randyne]

Current point system indicates that the 2nd assist is not just sometimes the most important play, it's the most important play as often as a goal or 1st assist. So on average a goal is as impressive as 2nd assist.

Then why goalscorers are not rewarded if they touched the puck before the goal?

 

[dgibb10]

You're "skeptical" of puck movers? It might be the most important thing a defenseman does.

Tbf

I'm always skeptical of dmen with good individual point totals but poor on ice generation.

A dmen can be heavily involved in offense, without actually being helpful to his team offensively.

The equivalent to a Russell Westbrook in basketball. Individual volume numbers look great, but if you're not efficient, every shot you take becomes a hinderance rather than a help.

A dman can have an offense run through him and get lots of individual chances and assists and shot assists, but not actually be helping his team, if he's not very efficient with converting possession to offense, and that possession is taking away opportunities for the flow of offense.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Tbf

I'm always skeptical of dmen with good individual point totals but poor on ice generation.

A dmen can be heavily involved in offense, without actually being helpful to his team offensively.

The equivalent to a Russell Westbrook in basketball. Individual volume numbers look great, but if you're not efficient, every shot you take becomes a hinderance rather than a help.

A dman can have an offense run through him and get lots of individual chances and assists and shot assists, but not actually be helping his team, if he's not very efficient with converting possession to offense, and that possession is taking away opportunities for the flow of offense.

That guy should have rather poor per 60 numbers (or is leaching off a good team, in which case you'd still expect the other D to have as good or better per 60).

 

[PenguinSuitedUp]

If we’re going to argue that secondary assists don’t count, then I don’t think players should be awarded goals if the puck deflects off of anything before going into the net.

 

[ijuka]

Drop the word 'success', the information only says they are harder to predict in the future than goals/Assists not having anything to do with success.

They are significantly less predictive of goals than either goals or primary assists.

I'm not trying to predict secondary assists, never crossed my mind.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

They are significantly less predictive of goals than either goals or primary assists.

I'm not trying to predict secondary assists, never crossed my mind.

There's a strong correlation between secondary assists, and the puck going into the net:

Here's some secondary assist leaders (From Reddit, not sure how official):

 

[kerrabria]

You're "skeptical" of puck movers? It might be the most important thing a defenseman does.

It definitely is not.

 

[rojac]

Yes I think we all agree on that but I think we also also agree that it’s fun to rag on secondary assists because you gotta rag on something.

You really don't.

 

[Obvious Fabertism]

I think there should be a stat for Possession Points and Takeaway Points. Possession points apply to anyone that touched the puck during a clear possession chain prior to a goal, useful in the modern NHL where you can have 4-5 guys passing it around successfully. And Takeaway points would apply to someone that forces a turnover and leads to a goal in the ensuing possession, I see that as being highly valuable and worth tracking who is getting clean turnovers and causing valuable transition offense.