Player Discussion: Anthony Cirelli

[HoseEmDown]

To be honest we now have Coleman to be that shutdown center, If Cirelli is to have a home he needs to produce at the 2C level. My expectations for the 2C on this team will be 22 to 25G and 55 to 60 points. This should be totally doable considering the amount of attention the 1st line gets from opponents defensive lines. I am not sure Cirelli is the guy that can get that done. So bridge him at 2.5 to 3 allow Stephens a couple more years to see if he will be a 2C.

Coleman is not a true center, he can play there but he's better on the wing. He isn't a 2C either and his numbers aren't better than Cirelli. He has had two 20 goal seasons but his career goal per game is actually slightly less than Cirelli 0.235 to 0.237. Points wise Cirelli scores at a 0.56 clip while Coleman 0.39, Cirelli kills him there. This year Cirelli is on pace for 19 goals and 54 points so very close to what you want, all while getting limited PP time.

As for Stephens he's definitely not a 2C. Cirelli is actually younger than him, size wise they aren't too different with a few pounds going to Stephens. Junior wise they aren't too different, Stephens had the better draft year while Cirelli was down the lineup on a stacked Oshawa team that won the Memorial Cup. So Stephens was able to show more which is why he was drafted higher but skill wise he wasn't better. Cirelli outscored him the next two junior seasons. In the AHL Cirelli was scoring at a higher rate before being called up and in the NHL you can see the difference as well. Stephens is a very good player and a good two way C like Cirelli he just isn't going to be better than Cirelli. His ceiling is a 3C which isn't a knock on him, we didn't really draft either to be a 2C but good bottom 6 guys.

 

[EmptyNetAssassin]

I am thinking more like a 3 by 4million. The cap is expected to go up by 2.5 to 7 million now. Huge range and makes no sense.

 

[Byrddog]

Coleman is not a true center, he can play there but he's better on the wing. He isn't a 2C either and his numbers aren't better than Cirelli. He has had two 20 goal seasons but his career goal per game is actually slightly less than Cirelli 0.235 to 0.237. Points wise Cirelli scores at a 0.56 clip while Coleman 0.39, Cirelli kills him there. This year Cirelli is on pace for 19 goals and 54 points so very close to what you want, all while getting limited PP time.

As for Stephens he's definitely not a 2C. Cirelli is actually younger than him, size wise they aren't too different with a few pounds going to Stephens. Junior wise they aren't too different, Stephens had the better draft year while Cirelli was down the lineup on a stacked Oshawa team that won the Memorial Cup. So Stephens was able to show more which is why he was drafted higher but skill wise he wasn't better. Cirelli outscored him the next two junior seasons. In the AHL Cirelli was scoring at a higher rate before being called up and in the NHL you can see the difference as well. Stephens is a very good player and a good two way C like Cirelli he just isn't going to be better than Cirelli. His ceiling is a 3C which isn't a knock on him, we didn't really draft either to be a 2C but good bottom 6 guys.

As you point out Cirelli and Colmans GPG is within 2 onehundreths and the difference in points per game is not all that impressive both below what I would expect at the position. Thing is they are essentially interchangeable and Coleman makes 1.8. And your going to have to move Killorn to sign Cirelli????? Makes no sense. Right now you take Killorns production out of the mix and this would be a wildcard team. Who would replace that production????? The kids are still cooking none will be able to step up next season on there ELC's to replace it and again it makes little sense to sign a 15 goal guy for 3 mil and sign Cirelli for 3 mil and lose the other things Killorn does while increasing the cap hit by 1 mil.

I am thinking more like a 3 by 4million. The cap is expected to go up by 2.5 to 7 million now. Huge range and makes no sense.

I know what Dailey has said but I also know what has happened every year in recent history Dailey or Bettman throw out numbers and the cap ends up with a marginal increase. It happens every year teams that are in a crunch pump the big number and go shucking and jiving when the cap increases 1 to 2.5 mil. With the exception 18 - 19 4 mil increase since 15 the cap went up 1.6 to 2.5 in 12 -13 it was actually cut 4 mil but we all know what went on there. If I were guessing the players will not vote for the escrow again and with the whole world shitting themselves over this virus the cap will end up 1.5 to 2.5 million increase. The cap situation here is as bad as any team in the league due to the NTC's out there. When you have only Kuch, Point and a MNTC of Killorn to move to sign what you need you have placed your nuts in a vice. Three of your top 4 producing forwards and your forced to move one to sign your kids. I understand that's the way it is in the league Chicago got caught by it the Pens have danced around it better than any other team in the league. But JBB and Yzer have created the issue with NTC's. Last year it was Miller this year will be Killorn. Who next year? and when Point needs a raise the year after the house of cards will start to crash I know Palat falls off but he has to be replaced as well Ohh another ELC will cover it. This is why Chicago went into the toilet after there run.

 

[HoseEmDown]

Cirelli is 22 years old, Coleman is 28. In the next 6 years with the way he's trending Cirelli should be producing much better than Coleman. CCirellialready has two seasons of higher point production than Coleman ever has. Cirelli would be scoring 20+ if he got decent PP time, he gets less than 1 minute a game. They are not interchangeable, Coleman is a cheap complementary piece, Cirelli is the current and future 2C with Selke defense. If you sign him for 3M that's not an overpayment, it's a steal as his potential is better than Killorns. Killorn has always been worth what he makes but never till this season worth more, Cirelli should be worth more than what he makes every year if we get him around 3M.

As for if we didn't have Killorn we wouldn't be a playoff team I don't buy that. We definitely don't have anyone to completely replace that production but give Verheaghe a bigger role and he can produce a bit more. Joseph and Volkov while they've struggled a bit this year could provide some production especially if they were getting more consistent minutes and linemates. Next year we have Barre-Boulet who can come up and take Palat's spot in the top 6 then Palat takes over for Killorn on the 3rd line. We might drop a little from Palat but we might get a boost with Palat on the 3rd line. Killorns money isn't going straight to Cirelli, Sergachev and Cernak will get some of it too.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

Coleman is not a true center, he can play there but he's better on the wing. He isn't a 2C either and his numbers aren't better than Cirelli. He has had two 20 goal seasons but his career goal per game is actually slightly less than Cirelli 0.235 to 0.237. Points wise Cirelli scores at a 0.56 clip while Coleman 0.39, Cirelli kills him there. This year Cirelli is on pace for 19 goals and 54 points so very close to what you want, all while getting limited PP time.

As for Stephens he's definitely not a 2C. Cirelli is actually younger than him, size wise they aren't too different with a few pounds going to Stephens. Junior wise they aren't too different, Stephens had the better draft year while Cirelli was down the lineup on a stacked Oshawa team that won the Memorial Cup. So Stephens was able to show more which is why he was drafted higher but skill wise he wasn't better. Cirelli outscored him the next two junior seasons. In the AHL Cirelli was scoring at a higher rate before being called up and in the NHL you can see the difference as well. Stephens is a very good player and a good two way C like Cirelli he just isn't going to be better than Cirelli. His ceiling is a 3C which isn't a knock on him, we didn't really draft either to be a 2C but good bottom 6 guys.

gonna 100 % disagree on stephens one thing i have noticed all these guys came up and they go down often on boards easily stephens doesnt I think he winds up a GREAT 2 c honestly.... he will never be a huge point producer and cirelli has shown to me at least a lot more ability to create .... the thing there though is I think stephens might have best vision on team minus kucherov and wind up being the best playmaker.... might not put up a ton of points himself but his passing vision is veryyyyy strong...... i think in all other areas d wise toughness etc... stephens is better and will prove that is better then cirelli.... cirelli will have a bit of the drouin (drouin factor to his game) exciting plays etc.... the good stuff drouin had none of the bad lol....

i really LOVE what im seeing in stephens how he can play a tough style etc... and actually compete and make plays and effect a game which he does nightly.... not sure any of them palat point cirelli etc... stay on feet better then stephens has as a rookie think his game is more palat then others but his vision is excellent and he has passes that are spot on for snipes things you dont expect to get through

i doubt stephens ever becomes more then a 20-60 type guy a killer so to speak but shut down wise??? he might wind up being the new palat and ill take that..... cirelli's upside is wayyyy more offensively his dangles speed charge to nets is awesome

p.s. i really think stephens holds onto muscle weight better then others and winds up stronger because of it maybe in 210-215 range for his career where cirelli will never have that

 

[HoseEmDown]

gonna 100 % disagree on stephens one thing i have noticed all these guys came up and they go down often on boards easily stephens doesnt I think he winds up a GREAT 2 c honestly.... he will never be a huge point producer and cirelli has shown to me at least a lot more ability to create .... the thing there though is I think stephens might have best vision on team minus kucherov and wind up being the best playmaker.... might not put up a ton of points himself but his passing vision is veryyyyy strong...... i think in all other areas d wise toughness etc... stephens is better and will prove that is better then cirelli.... cirelli will have a bit of the drouin (drouin factor to his game) exciting plays etc.... the good stuff drouin had none of the bad lol....

i really LOVE what im seeing in stephens how he can play a tough style etc... and actually compete and make plays and effect a game which he does nightly.... not sure any of them palat point cirelli etc... stay on feet better then stephens has as a rookie think his game is more palat then others but his vision is excellent and he has passes that are spot on for snipes things you dont expect to get through

i doubt stephens ever becomes more then a 20-60 type guy a killer so to speak but shut down wise??? he might wind up being the new palat and ill take that..... cirelli's upside is wayyyy more offensively his dangles speed charge to nets is awesome

p.s. i really think stephens holds onto muscle weight better then others and winds up stronger because of it maybe in 210-215 range for his career where cirelli will never have that

It's hard to say how wrong you are because you called Kucherov when he was like 18 and no one else did. But there's just no way Stephens is a 20-60 player or better than Cirelli. He has alright vision, it's definitely not right behind only Kucherov, let's be serious here. He's more a dirty goal scorer than a playmaker. He may become bigger than Cirelli that doesn't mean it will mean much, Cirelli doesn't need more mass to be effective. Stephens isn't better than Cirelli offensively not is he even better than him defensively. The one spot he has over Cirelli is in the faceoff circle, besides that Cirelli is just better all around.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

I am thinking more like a 3 by 4million. The cap is expected to go up by 2.5 to 7 million now. Huge range and makes no sense.

The 7 million range is expecting a full 5% escalator. So if the cap goes up 2.5 million, with a 5% escalator, you get 7 million total.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

It's hard to say how wrong you are because you called Kucherov when he was like 18 and no one else did. But there's just no way Stephens is a 20-60 player or better than Cirelli. He has alright vision, it's definitely not right behind only Kucherov, let's be serious here. He's more a dirty goal scorer than a playmaker. He may become bigger than Cirelli that doesn't mean it will mean much, Cirelli doesn't need more mass to be effective. Stephens isn't better than Cirelli offensively not is he even better than him defensively. The one spot he has over Cirelli is in the faceoff circle, besides that Cirelli is just better all around.

i really see something in his vision honestly that and toughness and not going down easily

joseph expected to stay on feet more this year a progression he didnt so far all the guys brought up stephens is most sured or assured? to stay on feet ive been impressed and yes dirty goal scoring etc.. he has sneaky passes really good vision I DID not expect

stephens i saw in limited games in ahl had very little ability scoring wise he held own physically overall but nothing flashy or nothing that stood out etc..

not saying im 100% right or claiming i just think the kid might have a little something extra that we are missing so to speak with others.....cirelli imho is going to have a much better career but i think stephens is a guy you put in like killer and forget cause he gets the job done.... i also have been very impressed by a lot of passes lately from the boards to players sticks..... not sure he winds up better then cirelli in face offs is too early to tell long time on that debate

stephens will be different then cirelli hopefully like palat was for first couple years he will play a simpler game then point or cirelli but it might prove very beneficial in our structure.... i have nothing bad to say about the kid he is surpassing all my expectations honestly

p.s. the guy that i liked playmaking wise was raddysh when saw our kids i didnt see what im seeing in stephens so far playmaking wise or on tape passes etc..... ive been pleasantly surprised by his game in almost all areas....

i actually thought verhaegh's game would translate more to nhl even on fourth line.... you just cant always get a good feel till its off paper and on ice

 

[DFC]

I don't see much offense in Stephens. I see him as something similar to the late years of Callahan.

 

[BuiumSaveUs]

What’s Cirelli’s anticipated extension range?

 

[Zwui21]

What’s Cirelli’s anticipated extension range?

Range is from 3.33 to 4M for 3 years, but if the cap gets a big boost it'll get more likely in the 3.75-4.25M IMO

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

i can see us trying to do a deal with cirelli in up to six years

not sure of numbers yet have to look at the similar cases serge 3 years hoping around 5.2

if adding years can see cirelli anywhere from low 4s to close to 6 per year we will see

i dont have a lot of history thought on other guys centers with his numbers so these are estimates or best guess for now

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

i can see us trying to do a deal with cirelli in up to six years

not sure of numbers yet have to look at the similar cases serge 3 years hoping around 5.2

if adding years can see cirelli anywhere from low 4s to close to 6 per year we will see

i dont have a lot of history thought on other guys centers with his numbers so these are estimates or best guess for now

If he signs 6 years no way its low 4's

 

[HoseEmDown]

If he signs 6 years no way its low 4's

May not be low 4's but high 4's low 5's, not 6. Dvorak was the 58th overall pick and put up 0.44ppg during his ELC in 176 games, he signed 6 years for 4.45. Trocheck was the 64th pick and put up 0.57ppg in 146 games during his ELC, he signed 6 years for 4.75. Cirelli was the 72nd overall pick and has a 0.56ppg over 163 games on his ELC. So when it comes to draft pedigree they're all pretty close being late 2nd early 3rd's. Production wise Trocheck with the slight lead, he had 25g and 53p his last ELC year. Dvorak is known as the more defensive player while Trocheck the offensive one, Cirelli is a little of both better than Dvorak defensively but don't think his offense is as good as Trocheck. As for what he should get I can easily see it being better than both, in between both but not less. So 4.5M or better but no more than 5.3, Trocheck 4.75 was 6.51% of the cap which is about 5.3M now.

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

May not be low 4's but high 4's low 5's, not 6. Dvorak was the 58th overall pick and put up 0.44ppg during his ELC in 176 games, he signed 6 years for 4.45. Trocheck was the 64th pick and put up 0.57ppg in 146 games during his ELC, he signed 6 years for 4.75. Cirelli was the 72nd overall pick and has a 0.56ppg over 163 games on his ELC. So when it comes to draft pedigree they're all pretty close being late 2nd early 3rd's. Production wise Trocheck with the slight lead, he had 25g and 53p his last ELC year. Dvorak is known as the more defensive player while Trocheck the offensive one, Cirelli is a little of both better than Dvorak defensively but don't think his offense is as good as Trocheck. As for what he should get I can easily see it being better than both, in between both but not less. So 4.5M or better but no more than 5.3, Trocheck 4.75 was 6.51% of the cap which is about 5.3M now.

very nice hose ty was tired so didnt look up was unsure whom to look up last guy looked up was pointer and the situation is a bit different here

i love these numbers myself ... really with the bump things look a lot easier for us next year then I had anticipated we might get away with only 1 real move and a minor one?

 

[Lord Stan 2020]

I don't see much offense in Stephens. I see him as something similar to the late years of Callahan.

i expected him to have less but you look at his shift he continues to feed guys with really good chances from hard places etc... his game is WAYYY above offensively what I had thought or saw in him in minors

flat out he can play with good or better linemates and seems when does to bring a little extra from what I thought he had

i honestly had him as a 4th liner in beginning never passing that level now im not so sure hes def interesting me

 

[DFC]

i expected him to have less but you look at his shift he continues to feed guys with really good chances from hard places etc... his game is WAYYY above offensively what I had thought or saw in him in minors

flat out he can play with good or better linemates and seems when does to bring a little extra from what I thought he had

i honestly had him as a 4th liner in beginning never passing that level now im not so sure hes def interesting me

I'm not seeing the offense at all. I see flashes in Verhaeghe, but I see Stephens as an energy guy who might chip in 20-30 points someday. I just don't see the flashes of skill, at least not anywhere close as it would be with a guy who could put up real points.

Stephens hasn't been a serious scorer in any league. I don't know why we would expect that to suddenly change in the NHL.

 

[TheDaysOf 04]

Prior to the 2019-20 NHL season being put on indefinite pause, Cirelli’s name was even being mentioned among the league’s top two-way forwards alongside Patrice Bergeron, Ryan O’Reilly, Sean Couturier and other Selke Trophy contenders.

“I don’t really focus too much on that stuff. I just try to focus on our team and our game, but it’s obviously a pretty cool feeling to be put up next to those guys,” Cirelli told Hockey Central on Friday. “It’s a huge honour, but I still have a lot to learn and a long way to go.”

Brian Burke calls Cirelli in the audio "one of the most improved players in the national hockey league in the last couple years" and that the sky's the limit for him and he's going to keep getting better.

Also some high praise quotes from his coaches and teammates if you watch the video

Derek Lalonde: "He draws us into the fight. He's non-stop compete."
Kevin Shattenkirk: "He reminds me a little bit of Patrice Bergeron."
Jeff Halpern: "The best (comparison) is probably Sidney Crosby in how powerful he is in the middle of the ice."

 

[TheDaysOf 04]

 

[TheFurryPickle]

I counted 2 goals he took from my boy !!

Still Cirelli is an elite player.

 

[The Gongshow]

Do we think Cirelli's ceiling is as high as Points? Two-way top 6 Center?

 

[The Macho King]

Do we think Cirelli's ceiling is as high as Points? Two-way top 6 Center?

He already is a two way top 6 center.

My thought is this - guy with brains and a motor that doesn't quit, you don't put a ceiling on. You just wait and see how high they can go.

 

[LightningStrikes]

Plus he’s under opponents’ skins all the time. See the Boston game in March (?).

 

[HoseEmDown]

Cirelli doesn't have the offensive skill to be as good as Point. He plays too North/South which is fine but unless your Lindros isn't going to make you a ppg player. Point can play North/South but East/West as well. He has more more range in his offense as well as better vision. I don't think we'll have a Lecavalier and Richards situation where they are both 1's, i feel Cirelli will be a little lower especially if he is deployed the way he has been. Unless Stephens can come in next year and be a 30+ point 3C who can take the heavy assignments, I don't feel Cirelli will get the offensive freedom and minutes to be a 70+ guy.

 

[LightningStrikes]

Yeah we have a true scoring 1st line with Stamkos, Point, Kucherov. 2nd line is more of a two-way threat with Palat, Cirelli and whoever.