Lafleurs Guy
Guuuuuuuy!
- Jul 20, 2007
- 75,694
- 45,902
Weise for Diaz was extremely hated for a while. Even when Weise was a playoff hero you had people criticizing saying just watch, Diaz will come around.
This isn't directed just at you, because many others in the thread have done the same thing, but why do people keep harping on offensive production as if it somehow a barometer to measuring this players worth?
It's pretty clear - and again, I don't mean you specifically - that there are a lot of people in this thread that really don't have a clue what kind of player Andrew Shaw is or what it is that he will bring to the Canadiens, so they dismiss him as a "grinder" or harp on his point totals as if that is somehow a measuring stick that "proves" he is a third line player.
There are a few nonsense arguments that keep coming and then get repeated as fact. It's like the Republic Party talking points in here. A bunch of lies and half-truths keep getting repeated until they become "fact."
Let's go through a few of these "talking points"...
1) Shaw "only" got 30 points while playing with Chicago's high end players, he'll do much worse with the Montreal's inferior offensive players.
There are a few issues with this, that have been pointed out in this thread already, but ignored because they don't fit the narrative. First of all, if Shaw is plugged into a second line agitator/go-to-the-net role that I suspect he will be, he will be playing with guys with the exact same, if not better, offensive totals than Jonathan Toews and Marian Hossa. Look at the numbers. This argument is just plain nonsense.
He spent a lot of time in Chicago playing with those two on a top six line that was given a lot of shutdown assignments by coach Quenville. This was an excellent line. Shaw helped make room, went to the net, caused distractions and was a major pain in the ass.
Even if there was a big difference between the offensive calibre of Toews/Hossa and say, Galchenyuk and Max or Plex and Gallagher - with there isn't - the notion that he is somehow "leaching" off these star players is also a total misnomer. Anybody that is familiar with his game knows that he is a thorn in the side of opponents, a guy that goes to the net, battles for rebounds, plays at the edge of the paint and tries to tip pucks and distract defensemen into battling with him instead of paying attention to the pass lanes, etc. This game would translate anywhere and with anybody. He doesn't rely on his line mates to prop him up. He wants to create situations where they can do what they do best.
2) He is a third line player
He could certainly be used on the third line. His physical play, defensive awareness and work ethic would make him excellent in that regard, but I think he would be much better deployed in the Top Six where he could really compliment two offensive players, help to create room for them and distract the other team. The simple fact that he was a Top Six player on a team that won the Cup twice and is widely regarded as one of the best teams in the league but all of the detractors here want to call him a "third liner" and a "grinder" is frankly bizarre. If he's a Top Six guy on a great team, why is he a bottom six guy on a team with issues on the wing. This makes no sense at all and is a pretty big credibility hit to any poster that keeps parroting this.
This claim becomes even more dubious when the detractors point to his 34 points as "proof" that he isn't a Top Six player. Look at the league. Look at the point totals of players on the second line. 34 points is in no way out of line with what second line guys put up on the vast majority of teams in the league. Not to mention, if you think Andrew Shaw's acquisition is strictly about the points he will personally produce, it's crystal clear that you aren't really aware of what kind of player he is.
3) This is way too much money for a player like this. This contract is a disaster.
I can at least understand the basis of the argument that people don't like a six year contract. I personally have no issue with it, because of his age and the fact that a six year deal could lower the cap hit, but to dispute how much he's being paid is really quite strange. There are tons of comparables of guys making similar money or in many cases more to do a lot less than Andrew Shaw. This is market value. Casey Cizaks, Brandon Sutter, Cody Eakin, Brooks Laich, Ryan Callahan, etc. This is by now means an outlier for a contract.
4) He's not even better than Lars Eller
How anybody could watch Andrew Shaw play and arrive at this conclusion is completely beyond me. I have seen people in this thread claiming that Eller is actually a *better* player, then they parrot off a bunch of stats. Andrew Shaw's direct contribution to the score sheet is NOT the way to gauge his value. Many Montreal fans have seen the way that Brendan Gallagher can get plugged into a line and become the engine of that line. His relentless hard work, his compete level, and his passion effects the entire line. This is what Andrew Shaw does. He does not have the offensive skill set of Brendan Gallagher, but he has the same fire, the same compete level, the same doggedness. Comparing a player like this to Lars Eller is essentially like saying "I actually don't know much about Shaw, but I looked up his numbers on the internet." Speaking of things you don't get from "the numbers..."
5) Intangibles are overrated
This is such a silly and vague argument. Just seems like a great way to dismiss the things that make the player so valuable and special. It's almost too dumb to even get into, so all I will say is Joel Quennville and Stan Bowman really disagree with the "experts" here and I will take their word on what matters when building a winning team over the HFBoard's geniuses any day of the week.
I was ecstatic when that trade went through. Diaz is the poster boy for why possession stat watching is flawed. The guy was able to move the puck when he had a ton of time and space, and he loved throwing weak, saveable shots on net. Apply an ounce of pressure on him and he'd willingly give up the puck.
There's more to hockey than possession stats.
Good for you but that wasn't the common view here: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1597235&highlight=diaz+weise
Theres two other parts.
Several posters thought this was a good deal. Diaz is not and was not an NHL defenseman, while Weise is a capable 3rd liner. Was a great trade.
It was a great trade. More were on the side of Andrew Berkshire and his ilk that Montreal let go of one of their best defencemen for a grinder. Much of those same folks still make the same posts every day about grinders.
Good for you but that wasn't the common view here: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1597235&highlight=diaz+weise
Theres two other parts.
Oof.I think most of the ire is also directed at the context of this Shaw acquisition... The organization prioritizing bottom6ers over top6ers at every opportunity.
Oof.
This tired rhetoric again. It’s as if the chronology of the off season moves actually matters. Now we won’t just be happy IF he gets a Top 6 player, apparently he has to get that Top 6 player FIRST before doing anything else?
Chronology matters when cap-space matters.Oof.
...
If Shaw is his only move, you’ll have a point. But maybe, just maybe, MB knows what he’s doing, as evidenced by the fact that he’s moved out Eller in conjunction with adding Shaw and has accumulated $7.4 million in cap space to use on UFA day in 3 days. Maybe Shaw was part of the plan, and a UFA is another, larger part but won't be physically possible until Friday.
Yup.Speaking of tired things.
How many artificial timelines is this now?
Oh wait till the draft, umm, july 1st..... all off season... he has lots of time til the trade deadline, he cant fix things, you dont make those moves at the draft......
Ok you may finally have a point if Shaws his only move but not really because i will move the goal post again
Thats true but which of MB's recent move warrant a positive reaction ? He deserves the hate.
Good contract. No NTC or anything like it.
Needed to be quoted for the new thread.
This isn't directed just at you, because many others in the thread have done the same thing, but why do people keep harping on offensive production as if it somehow a barometer to measuring this players worth?
It's pretty clear - and again, I don't mean you specifically - that there are a lot of people in this thread that really don't have a clue what kind of player Andrew Shaw is or what it is that he will bring to the Canadiens, so they dismiss him as a "grinder" or harp on his point totals as if that is somehow a measuring stick that "proves" he is a third line player.
There are a few nonsense arguments that keep coming and then get repeated as fact. It's like the Republic Party talking points in here. A bunch of lies and half-truths keep getting repeated until they become "fact."
Let's go through a few of these "talking points"...
1) Shaw "only" got 30 points while playing with Chicago's high end players, he'll do much worse with the Montreal's inferior offensive players.
There are a few issues with this, that have been pointed out in this thread already, but ignored because they don't fit the narrative. First of all, if Shaw is plugged into a second line agitator/go-to-the-net role that I suspect he will be, he will be playing with guys with the exact same, if not better, offensive totals than Jonathan Toews and Marian Hossa. Look at the numbers. This argument is just plain nonsense.
He spent a lot of time in Chicago playing with those two on a top six line that was given a lot of shutdown assignments by coach Quenville. This was an excellent line. Shaw helped make room, went to the net, caused distractions and was a major pain in the ass.
Even if there was a big difference between the offensive calibre of Toews/Hossa and say, Galchenyuk and Max or Plex and Gallagher - with there isn't - the notion that he is somehow "leaching" off these star players is also a total misnomer. Anybody that is familiar with his game knows that he is a thorn in the side of opponents, a guy that goes to the net, battles for rebounds, plays at the edge of the paint and tries to tip pucks and distract defensemen into battling with him instead of paying attention to the pass lanes, etc. This game would translate anywhere and with anybody. He doesn't rely on his line mates to prop him up. He wants to create situations where they can do what they do best.
2) He is a third line player
He could certainly be used on the third line. His physical play, defensive awareness and work ethic would make him excellent in that regard, but I think he would be much better deployed in the Top Six where he could really compliment two offensive players, help to create room for them and distract the other team. The simple fact that he was a Top Six player on a team that won the Cup twice and is widely regarded as one of the best teams in the league but all of the detractors here want to call him a "third liner" and a "grinder" is frankly bizarre. If he's a Top Six guy on a great team, why is he a bottom six guy on a team with issues on the wing. This makes no sense at all and is a pretty big credibility hit to any poster that keeps parroting this.
This claim becomes even more dubious when the detractors point to his 34 points as "proof" that he isn't a Top Six player. Look at the league. Look at the point totals of players on the second line. 34 points is in no way out of line with what second line guys put up on the vast majority of teams in the league. Not to mention, if you think Andrew Shaw's acquisition is strictly about the points he will personally produce, it's crystal clear that you aren't really aware of what kind of player he is.
3) This is way too much money for a player like this. This contract is a disaster.
I can at least understand the basis of the argument that people don't like a six year contract. I personally have no issue with it, because of his age and the fact that a six year deal could lower the cap hit, but to dispute how much he's being paid is really quite strange. There are tons of comparables of guys making similar money or in many cases more to do a lot less than Andrew Shaw. This is market value. Casey Cizaks, Brandon Sutter, Cody Eakin, Brooks Laich, Ryan Callahan, etc. This is by now means an outlier for a contract.
4) He's not even better than Lars Eller
How anybody could watch Andrew Shaw play and arrive at this conclusion is completely beyond me. I have seen people in this thread claiming that Eller is actually a *better* player, then they parrot off a bunch of stats. Andrew Shaw's direct contribution to the score sheet is NOT the way to gauge his value. Many Montreal fans have seen the way that Brendan Gallagher can get plugged into a line and become the engine of that line. His relentless hard work, his compete level, and his passion effects the entire line. This is what Andrew Shaw does. He does not have the offensive skill set of Brendan Gallagher, but he has the same fire, the same compete level, the same doggedness. Comparing a player like this to Lars Eller is essentially like saying "I actually don't know much about Shaw, but I looked up his numbers on the internet." Speaking of things you don't get from "the numbers..."
5) Intangibles are overrated
This is such a silly and vague argument. Just seems like a great way to dismiss the things that make the player so valuable and special. It's almost too dumb to even get into, so all I will say is Joel Quennville and Stan Bowman really disagree with the "experts" here and I will take their word on what matters when building a winning team over the HFBoard's geniuses any day of the week.
I agree. I'd say it's probably a year and $150k to 400k more than I had hoped, but I'll gladly look the other way for a deal without a NTC.
Over the life of Shaws contract we have to remember the % of cap space 3.9M represents will continue to shrink. If we assume a cap increase of 5% a year over the total term of this deal, this is how his cap % would be (I didn't have the aid of a calculator, I was doing the numbers long hand so I rounded numbers off).
Year 1-contract represents 5.3% of team cap. In terms of 2016-2017 cap dollars that works out to 3.9M against a $73M cap.
Year 2-contract represents 5.03% of team cap. In terms of 2016-2017 cap dollars that would be like a 3.67M cap hit.
Year 3-contract represents 4.77% of team cap. In terms of 2016-2017 cap dollars that would be like a 3.48M cap hit.
Year 4-contract represents 4.53% of team cap. In terms of 2016-2017 cap dollars that would be like a 3.30M cap hit.
Year 5-contract represents 4.30% of team cap. In terms of 2016-2017 cap dollars that would be like a 3.14M cap hit.
Year 6-contract represents 4.08% of team cap. In terms of 2016-2017 cap dollars that would be like a 2.97M cap hit.
Needed to be quoted for the new thread.
Very good post. But 5% by year seems to me a bit high. This year, cap raised of only 2,4%...