- Jul 25, 2012
- 42,548
- 39,392
Confirmed with Link: [ANA/PHI] Cutter Gauthier for Jamie Drysdale and 2025 2nd round pick
- Thread starter MMC
- Start date
The Midnight Burrito
True Fan
Pronman's ratings are always depressing (and often wrong IMO). Zegras has average hands, Carlsson a below average skater, etc.
I really hope he does well and doesnt get eaten alive by the media. Jimmy just seems like such a good guy.
- Jul 25, 2012
- 42,548
- 39,392
I assume the fact that he’s taking gauthiers spot and happy to be there is prob a huge + for their fan base
MMC
Global Moderator
Masch78
Registered User
- Oct 5, 2017
- 2,539
- 1,691
Everyone looking at the ratings but not on conclusions? Jamie can be a GOOD defender due to his skating. Projects to play big minutes in all situation. Not likely a big point producer.
Gauthier has top line tools. Not top 6, top line.
I don't think you can reasonably be worried about him not signing here at this time based on everything we know. He gave them 18 teams he'd play for i think, sounds like it might not even be about Torts after all, rather he wanted to play this season.
Hockey Duckie
Registered User
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........ tl;dr ........
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Any RD we select in the 2024 draft will take 2-3 years of development. That's the big context missing here with trading away RD Drysdale. If the Ducks had selected scoring RW Snuggerud at 22nd overall, then we get a prospect that has played two seasons in college to potentially make the NHL jump next season and keep our RD depth at the NHL level.
Instead, we've cannibalized our NHL RD depth b/c our GM lacked the foresight of needing top-6 scoring in our system when it presented itself at 22nd overall in the 2022 draft with two scoring forward options in 6'2 RW Snuggerud or 6'0 C/LW Kulich. Verbeek prioritized a bottom-6, shutdown center over a potential top-6 scoring forwards.
Verbeek should have been playing chess instead of checkers. Because Verbeek was playing checkers, we're definitely paying extra for things we like and covet.
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The Lord of the Rings breakdown
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Whoa, whoa, whoa... There's a whole lot of context missing here.
First, you're utilizing a "prospect ranking" and missing on it are Minty (a 2022 draftee like Cutter) and Carlsson, a 2023 draftee. Oh that's right... both Minty and Carlsson aren't considered prospects since they are considered NHL mainstays.
Second, you are only looking at this trade with a micro view and not realizing what we lost by selecting shutdown C Nathan Gaucher over scoring RW Snuggerud, especially knowing we already have 24 year old, shutdown C Lundy in tow.
- Drafted
- LW Cutter = 5th, Philly
- LD Mintyukov = 10th, Anaheim
- C Gaucher = 22nd, Anaheim
- RW Snuggerud = 23rd, St. Louis
- Draft +0
- Cutter
- USHL: 22 games; 19g + 9a = 28 pts
- NDTP: 54 games; 34g + 31a = 65 pts
- WJC-18=: 6 games; 3g + 6a = 9 pts
- Snuggerud
- USHL: 26 games; 6g + 20a = 26 pts
- NDTP: 59 games; 24g + 39a = 63 pts
- WJC-18: 6 games; 3g + 4a = 7 pts
- Cutter
- Draft +1
- Cutter
- NCAA (BC): 32 games; 16g + 21a = 37 pts
- WJC-20: 7 games; 4g + 6a = 10 pts
- WC: 10 games; 7g + 2a = 9 pts
- Snuggerud
- NCAA (Minny): 40 games; 21g + 29a = 50 pts
- WJC-20: 7 games; 5g + 8a = 13 pts
- Cutter
- Draft +2
- Cutter
- NCAA (BC): 17 games; 13g + 10a = 23 pts
- WJC-20: 7 games; 2g + 10a = 12 pts
- Snuggerud
- NCAA (Minny): 20 games; 16g + 6a = 22 pts
- WJC-20: 6 games; 5g + 3a = 8 pts
- Cutter
Snuggerud has improved on his goal scoring once he hit the college scene. He's kept up with Cutter (or exceeded him in raw goal scoring) in college and WJC's. As for the latest WJC-20s, Snuggerud was sick in the exhibition rounds, which is why he played only 6 games and he had to work himself up the lineup when he was cleared to play.
This isn't a direct exchange between Cutter and Snuggerud, which is what you're implying. Cutter went 5th (Philly), Minty went 10th (Ducks), Gaucher went 22nd (Ducks), and Snuggerud went 23rd (Blues). If the Ducks wanted to trade up for Cutter, then it would have packaged the 10th, the 22nd, and maybe a 3rd round pick. Two years later from the draft, Cutter nets Drysdale and a 2025 2nd round pick.
Remember, Verbeek stated we lacked top-6 scoring in our system (because 2019 Z, 2021 Mac, and 2023 Carlsson are staying in the NHL). If Verbeek had drafted Snuggerud, then there wouldn't be this dire need to trade for Cutter. We retain Drysdale and aren't pigeon-holed on what to do with our first round in next year's draft.
I don't understand why people keep including LD prospects as a reason why to get rid of Drysdale because not many can do the switch. Minty and Vaak cannot play on their off-side, but LaCombe can. Except, recently, the Ducks are keeping LaCombe on the left side and putting older vet Fowler on the right side (which they should have done from the very start).
Ducks RD youths in the org (without Drysdale)
- NHL
- Luneau (2022 draft):
apparently knee infection at WJC... probably the same knee he had surgery on years ago
still not an NHL product and projected to be returned to juniors once infection is healed
- Luneau (2022 draft):
- AHL
- Helleson (2019 draft):
still not looking like an NHL product, but is a top-pairing RD in San Diego
he's not an offensive guy nor a shutdown guy, passed up by LD Zell (offensive) and LD Hinds (shutdown)
- Helleson (2019 draft):
- non-pro
- Warren: looks to be years away
- Moore: in junior season at Harvard and has been injured since Nov 27th. Probably could stay another year at Harvard to work on his offense, but would be prudent to sign him after this season due to necessity.
- Port: is probably a longer term project than Warren, but NHL outlook for him looks bleak
It seems painfully obvious that we need a RD with our own 1st round in the 2024 draft. Using Minty and Drysdale as our past/current experiences of defensemen making the NHL, we are going to be waiting three years to look NHL established. Minty hit a rookie wall early in his D+2 season, mostly as a 3rd pairing, sheltered LD. Drysdale was barely hanging on in his D+2 season as a top-pairing RD.
- 2024 projected top-15, Defensemen focus
Using myNHLdraft's Jan 10th iteration:- 5. LD Dickinson (OHL): 6'3, 205 lbs
- 7. LD Silayev (KHL): 6'7, 207 lbs
- 9. RD Levshunov (NCAA): 6'2, 198 lbs
- 11. LD Buium (NCAA): 6'0, 185 lbs
- 12. RD Yakemchuk (WHL): 6'3 190 lbs
- 15. RD Jiricek (Cze): 6'2, 175 lbs
Great. Now were limited only to Lev, Yakem, and Jiricek. We probably have to hope to land the 2nd overall pick to ensure we snag Lev. (Tankathon's Jan 6th, 2024 mock has Lev as the first D-man drafted at 4th overall.) What I like about Lev is he's already at the NCAA level this year and may need only one more year in the NCAA before jumping over. The extra year in the NCAA will help Lev continue to develop his body on a better schedule than whatever the Ducks are doing with Carlsson.
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Conclusion / tl;dr
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Any RD we select in the 2024 draft will take 2-3 years of development. That's the big context missing here with trading away RD Drysdale. If the Ducks had selected scoring RW Snuggerud at 22nd overall, then we get a prospect that has played two seasons in college to potentially make the NHL jump next season and keep our RD depth at the NHL level.
Instead, we've cannibalized our NHL RD depth b/c our GM lacked the foresight of needing top-6 scoring in our system when it presented itself at 22nd overall in the 2022 draft with two scoring forward options in 6'2 RW Snuggerud or 6'0 C/LW Kulich. Verbeek prioritized a bottom-6, shutdown center over a potential top-6 scoring forwards.
Verbeek should have been playing chess instead of checkers. Because Verbeek was playing checkers, we're definitely paying extra for things we like and covet.
He's going to announce he wont be signing with the Ducks, that's a huge step in his development path gotta respect it
MMC
Global Moderator
Yeah sorry but this Snuggerud shit is beyond cringe to me, dude hasn’t done squat outside of the collegiate level and Gaucher is starting to look pretty good for SD. Acting like he was some can’t miss prospect is really corny
Masch78
Registered User
- Oct 5, 2017
- 2,539
- 1,691
Thing is, we all do not know yet. This can turn out into all directions. Only time will tell. Acting 2 years later and argue what we should have done in 2022 is sort of strange. Gaucher was their choice and not PV. We have a scouting department, Martin Madden is in a prominent position. So why putting everything on PV?
Every draft we hear "in Madden we trust" we should stop this if we believe it's just PV. Sorry mate, I usually like your posts but right now it seems you are personally affected doe some reason and are trying to argue something out of it.
This trade van be judged in 2-3 years and not now.
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And then he will reveal that Hayes is indeed behind all this
Hockey Duckie
Registered User
Don't confuse me questioning Verbeek's big picture with having Cutter as our prospect today. A person can hold both views. A couple of years ago, I said Verbeek reset the rebuild and ready to hunker down for five years. I disagreed with the path, but I was on board with the path.
Acting two years later? Maybe you're new here or maybe you haven't read enough. We know you're NOT new here on HFboards. I've been on the Snuggerud (and Kulich) train at 22nd since the 2022 draft, but still supported the Gaucher trade b/c not much else we can do. There was another poster who wanted Kulich and Snuggerud at the 2022 draft too, I'm think it's @Kalv ... could be wrong. There was no point in arguing between who we picked at 22nd b/c nothing was affecting the system. Gaucher recently started to look better in San Diego, which is a plus for us.
Why is Snuggerud important now? Because Verbeek lacked foresight that we need top-6 scoring in our system despite recently opining his dying love for Cutter, a top-6 scoring forward. Verbeek drafted D Minty at 10 and then a shutdown, 3C at 22nd with Gaucher. Why did PV stray away from drafting a top-6 scoring talent at 22nd overall when he wanted one at 10th overall? Today, it's costing us a top-pairing RD that's in his D+4 season and we've don't have RD talent after Luneau that's NHL ready next year or two as well as a 2025 2nd round pick.
Cutter's a great prospect and a projected top-6 scoring forward. I support Cutter from here on out as long as he's a Duck. We needed a top-6 scoring talent in our system and before the trade, we were eyeballing forwards in the 2024 draft, which we'll probably be selecting in the top-5. Cutter is NHL-bound next year in his D+3 season. I like that a lot.
Teams will often trade for top-6 scoring forwards than bottom-6, shutdown forwards. We just did it with Cutter. Are teams lining up to trade for Gaucher? Nope. Not even we have trust in Gaucher producing top-6 offense. That's a huge problem with Verbeek's philosophy.
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Drafting late first/early 2nd trends
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Madden isn't the GM, he's the assistant GM. The final say goes to PV. Same goes with Murray. Murray took swings with his late first round picks/early 2nd rounders. PV has shown a more defensive route, renaming it "elite complementary forward" by asst GM Madden.
Murray's recent late first/early 2nd picks
- 2016
- 24th. LW Max Jones (potential goal scorer... but oft injured after his draft year)
- 30th. C Steel (late rising scorer)
- 2017
- no late first/early 2nd rd pick
- 2018
- 23rd. C Lundy (falling talent, defensive C)
- 2019
- 29th. LW Tracey (late bloomer, scoring fwd)
- 39th. LD LaCombe (high school product, scoring OFD)
- 2020
- 27th. RW Perreault (talent falling, goal scoring fwd with motor issues)
- 26th. RW Colangelo (big, goal scoring PF, USHL... not part of US NTDP)
- 2021
- 34th. LD Zellweger (small OFD... limited action... total big swing)
If there's a potential scoring forward in the draft, then Murray is usually all over it! Look at all those swings. His biggest swing was taking Tracey over Kaliyev, who had instant chemistry with Zegras at int'l tournaments.
- 2022
- 22nd. C Gaucher (shutdown C)... Snuggerud and Kulich available
- 2023
- 33rd. LW Myatovic (def minded F with offense popped in D+0 year only)
Myatovic wasn't at the top of my choice at 33rd overall. He was probably at the bottom of my 2nd round group of players I wanted. RW Haltunnen is a goal scorer, but needs to develop everywhere else (like Kaliyev and Perreault). I liked D Strbak over Myatovic. I liked C Terrance over Myatovic, but Terrance was selected 59th overall. So I can't complain (kinda like picking Rakell before Gibby).
We were desperate for offense in the 2023 draft that we did not draft a defensemen in first three rounds despite having six draft picks in the first three rounds.
Apparently, the GM has final say over an assistant GM. That's the pattern I shared above. The selections are different between GM Murray and GM Verbeek. I can only lead you to the trough.
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Effects of the trade
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Reiterating that I called out that Verbeek reset the rebuild, the effect was we will have to wait about five years to judge the reset rebuild. While many people have been complaining for the past two years and being impatient, I'm not b/c we're collecting and developing process all the while. That's the future.
I am not judging this trade. I am criticizing the effects of this trade. In your willingness to be the white knight for judging this trade, you omit the effects of this trade in our organization by "not reading" what I wrote. We lack NHL RD talent depth today and aside from Luneau, we don't have any true RD to take up a top-4 RD mantle. Any RD we draft in 2024 will need 2-3 years of development to get to the same point Drysdale was in this year.
Verbeek cited that we're in development mode for the next two seasons. That implies our 2025 2nd round pick will probably be in the top-half.
If Verbeek recognized the lack of top-6 scoring at the 2022 draft and prioritized it, then we end up with RW Snuggerud, who fits into Verbeek's 2022 draft agenda of "I want taller players" requirement. We are not losing NHL RD depth nor the 2025 2nd round pick.
Surprisingly, our 2022 fifth round pick, LW Connor Hvidston, was drafted as a shutdown forward. In the past two years, he's been playing center for Swift Current and put up offensive production akin to Gaucher. While many will point that Hvidston is doing it a year later, Hvidston is actually doing it at the same age as Gaucher b/c Hvidston is an early Sept birth. Hvidston is only a couple of months older than 2023 pick Myatovic. Finding shutdown forwards can be had in the middle of the 2nd round and beyond, unless there's no other talents late in the first round like in the 2018 draft.
duckaroosky
So sayeth Duckthulu
Needs to be in the injury thread bc this broke my heart. Best of luck to Drysdale going forward, I really do hope he stays healthy.
Maybe, 2 years ago, priorities were different. We're also adding into the equation now, guys they drafted this past season. Not everything exists in a vacuum. Things change including players, team needs, team performance.
Eakins and other who are no longer here may have had some input. Eakins system could have been a point of conversation when looking at guys. Extended time that some prospects are now taking might have not been the thought at the time. Lundy is far from a lock to be anything. So maybe, the front office at the time is looking at our roster and saying "Gaucher is the guy we need and the depth we lack right now."
Fast forward 2 years and we have a new coach, a new system, new players. Do they take Gaucher if they know they are picking Bedard/Carlsson/Fantilli the following season?
I get a lot of what you are saying but part of chess is also reacting to moves on the board. So we gave up our rook, now you have to make up for that. Now maybe you use some of the pawns on the board to take another teams rook. We have draft capital, we have cap space, we have some prospects we know we cant or wont use going forward. It doesnt have to be someone you draft, you can trade for a guy too. They can always use our pick to trade for a young RD that fits our timeline. They could draft that RD and be willing to wait, go after someone in FA.
And one other thing, maybe the Ducks just really didnt like something about Snuggy. Maybe hes not someone Madden or Beeker had faith in, didnt fit the Ducks the mold, maybe said something that made them think he didnt want to be in Anaheim. Yes, more what ifs, but unfortunately thats the name of the game. There is so much we dont know, cant know, wont know. Going off of only thing we know.... where guys were picked, what they look like now, what our situation is now, sure, i get why you have those opinions, but there is way too much unknown.
It sucks to lose Drysdale. We will probably struggle to a certain degree to replace him, but there are many ways to fill that gap. The only thing I am pretty certain of, we lost a 2/3 Dman, not a #1.
I always find the "Are you excited to be here?" questions to be pretty funny. Unless a guy gets traded to his hometown team, has a best friend on the team or something like that, these guys are probably still in shock a bit and know nothing about the team, city or Org.
What he going to say? "No, not excited at all. Pretty bummed actually to be leaving some really good friends of mine and living on the beach. Heard the cheesesteaks are good though, so there is that. Didnt you people throw batteries at Santa?"
At the time of the draft I did not have a favorite but I was a bit underwhelmed with a pick whose ceiling seemed to be a 3C. Only later I noticed how good Snuggerud and Kulich are... which again makes me doubt our scouting staffs ability to choose forwards. Because I think we'd be ecstatic to have Snuggerud and Kulich right now
- Jul 25, 2012
- 42,548
- 39,392
- Sep 21, 2018
- 3,864
- 6,112
Fishing for easy quotes for their article titles - "Drysdale 'excited' for a fresh start in Philly" etc. All in service of fanfare clickbait to drive daily traffic.
MMC
Global Moderator
GunnarStahl
Let’s go shake their hands
- Oct 13, 2020
- 2,076
- 2,896
Cutter says his choice was a personal matter that is private but denies any involvement from Kevin Hayes.
MMC
Global Moderator
Wow, Gauthier kinda sounds like Verbeek even lol, same cadence
