Post-Game Talk: An official loss

Bring Back Bucky

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May 19, 2004
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Big time. We are older, slower and softer. Jackson blew it up this offseason, and it's a disaster. McDrai has been supporting the D at a level we have never seen before, which is obscuring how big of step backwards we took imo.

How good would a fast defensively responsible 25 yr old on a 2 million contract look right now? How about a fast, gritty, goalscorer for Leon at 2.3 million?


JSkinner costs 3 million to tank the third line so someone might trade for him. I like Arvy, but not at the cost of Holloway, and we are in win-now mode but traded Mcleod for 5'10 magic beans that is looking a hell of a lot like XB right now.
How the f*** can you say Savoie is looking like Xavier Borgault? Third year pro Borgault is on pace for 25 points in the AHL. First year pro Savoie is on pace for 53, including 10 pts in his last 10 games. I would say his first year against grown men is shaping up according to expectations. You realize that if we hope to contend for cups the next three or four years, we will need low cost contributions from young legs.

When Kane is back we are not softer than last year. Podz has shown plenty of grit. . Philp is on his way in the new year and he’s not soft. This isn’t the roster you’ll see in April and I’m certain the changes will bring more speed in.
 

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
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I actually disagree. The hit stats are not a reliable indicator of a team's ability to play in a physical environment. If they were you would have proof that Guys like Draisaitl and Hyman, or even McDavid were soft as butter. Do you think they are?

There are 415 forwards who have played 15+ games this year. Loen is 398th on the hit rate list. By the way Koptar is 396th on that list. He is another guy that I doubt many would call soft.
I think that it provides a general sense of how physical the team is.
Pulling out specific stats for specific players doesnt change that.
 

Fourier

Registered User
Dec 29, 2006
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I think that it provides a general sense of how physical the team is.
Pulling out specific stats for specific players doesnt change that.
In terms of the bolded actually it doesn't. And of course pointing out specific players shows this. First off the hit stats vary wildly from city to city. This has always been the case. They can also be skewed by a few players. Moreover, it depends a lot on who is physical and who is not. The Oilers top six is not soft at all but the hit stats would say they are.

A guy like Ekholm is perfectly physical when it counts but hit stats don't tell you this. Partly because when he is on the ice the Oilers tend to have the puck and partly because he is smart enough to nit chase hits and put himself out of position. In fact on the back end some of the big hitters are also guys who get caught out of position the most.

One of the things that has made the Oilers pp so effective is their ability to control the wall and retrieve loose pucks. This is very much about playing physically. Yet the guys on the pp are statistically amongst the "softest players in the league" if you believe what you said.

I don't say this because I don't think hitting matters. It does but volume means less than timing. Hit stats are like FO%. Both stats can lead you to wildly incorrect assertions. In fact, detailed studies have shown that hit stats are negatively correlated with winning.
 
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Whoshattenkirkshoes

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Aug 11, 2014
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Foegele being the same old crap was a big fast guy who had 20 goals and 41 points. I will take that any day to additions we brought in this year. We lost a ton of speed and some size with Holloway, Foegele, and McLeod leaving. All three were younger guys that you know will get better, and we swapped that for older. guys in hopes they can repeat some of their best past years. It was a mistake.

We were one goal away, why change that many players when we could have signed them all?
Foegele got benched in the playoffs. His time was done here. Arvidsson is a much better winger for Drai and I don’t think that’s debatable.
 

Throttlehead

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Jan 22, 2014
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Foegele got benched in the playoffs. His time was done here. Arvidsson is a much better winger for Drai and I don’t think that’s debatable.
Who said Foegele had to be Draisaitl's winger? Arvidson is on course to have worse numbers than Foegele while playing on Draisaitl's wing, while Foegele was playing 3rd line minutes. Foegele still had the 7th most points on the team in the playoffs and killed penalties. I don't see anywhere where Arvidson is better and how exactly was his time done in Edmonton other than whining on HF?
 

Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
Oct 8, 2017
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Who said Foegele had to be Draisaitl's winger? Arvidson is on course to have worse numbers than Foegele while playing on Draisaitl's wing, while Foegele was playing 3rd line minutes. Foegele still had the 7th most points on the team in the playoffs and killed penalties. I don't see anywhere where Arvidson is better and how exactly was his time done in Edmonton other than whining on HF?
To add that Foegele is in prime, has more battle on puck and is simply stronger and faster player and even better in EV scoring for several seasons than Arvid.

Theres a real want from a player like Foegele for him to show more often because he does have some hands. But he's like many tweener scorers everywhere is that theres times where its just not potting for him. Still, 20 goals, that was nothing to sneeze that and we only have 3 forwards this season that are even on a 20 goal pace. Sobering reality.
 
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guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
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In terms of the bolded actually it doesn't. And of course pointing out specific players shows this. First off the hit stats vary wildly from city to city. This has always been the case. They can also be skewed by a few players. Moreover, it depends a lot on who is physical and who is not. The Oilers top six is not soft at all but the hit stats would say they are.

A guy like Ekholm is perfectly physical when it counts but hit stats don't tell you this. Partly because when he is on the ice the Oilers tend to have the puck and partly because he is smart enough to nit chase hits and put himself out of position. In fact on the back end some of the big hitters are also guys who get caught out of position the most.

One of the things that has made the Oilers pp so effective is their ability to control the wall and retrieve loose pucks. This is very much about playing physically. Yet the guys on the pp are statistically amongst the "softest players in the league" if you believe what you said.

I don't say this because I don't think hitting matters. It does but volume means less than timing. Hit stats are like FO%. Both stats can lead you to wildly incorrect assertions. In fact, detailed studies have shown that hit stats are negatively correlated with winning.
It definitely depends on how you utilize them so we dont disagree entirely.
Lets use FO% as an example...context matters and for example losing the draw in the D zone on the PK or in the O zone on the PP makes a big difference.
Its all about possession however unlike puck retrieval it doesnt require nearly as much time and energy to win a faceoff. So its very important.

I also didnt come to the 'soft' conclusion just from the hitting stats alone.

The primary reason why I emphasize how soft this team is because I dont think they are gritty enough to beat the teams they will need to beat to win the SC. I see the team getting pushed out of games against big heavy teams. Always being the nail (instead of the hammer) isnt an effective strategy against heavier teams like Florida, Vegas and LA.
Especially in a 7 game series. If the Oilers end up playing LA then Vegas and then Florida again I see that as a problem without (at the very least) having Kane in the lineup.
 
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Soundwave

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Mar 1, 2007
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Well it depends on how you utilize them.
Lets use FO% as an example...context matters and for example losing the draw in the D zone on the PK or in the O zone on the PP makes a difference. So if you are suggesting that the stat should be outright dismissed then we arent going to agree at all.

I also didnt come to the 'soft' conclusion just from the hitting stats alone.

I see the team getting pushed out of games against big heavy teams. Always being the nail (instead of the hammer) isnt an effective strategy against heavier teams like Florida, vegas and LA.

We were physically pushing Vegas around for a lot of that series (to the point where Pietrangelo got so frustrated he snapped and Desharnais was cross checking Stone in the back over and over again) ... and lost.
 

Whoshattenkirkshoes

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Aug 11, 2014
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Who said Foegele had to be Draisaitl's winger? Arvidson is on course to have worse numbers than Foegele while playing on Draisaitl's wing, while Foegele was playing 3rd line minutes. Foegele still had the 7th most points on the team in the playoffs and killed penalties. I don't see anywhere where Arvidson is better and how exactly was his time done in Edmonton other than whining on HF?
Arvidsson is better than Foegele. It’s not all about numbers….

Also management clearly thought his time here was over.
 

harpoon

Registered User
Dec 23, 2005
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The more I think about it, the more I’m very unhappy with the gesture Byfield made at the end of the game. I guess I must be on an island though because nobody else seems too bothered.

Throat slashing gestures are inappropriate behavior for professional athletes. Allowing players to get away with that tarnishes the image of the league. I know, I know, it’s not like the NHL has such a sterling reputation to protect, but there are kids out there watching these games. For the league to have no comment is kinda of surprising to me.

Any quick search will show that a wide array of leagues have either banned the gesture outright, or investigated and fined players who make it.

NFL

NBA

MLB

FIFA

Rugby

Even the paralympics

There’s simply no place for thug like behavior like that in the NHL. Byfield set a terrible example for young kids. He made himself look stupid. He embarrassed his teammates and everyone associated with the LA Kings. I can’t believe that nobody seems to even care. He definitely deserves some supplementary discipline and the opportunity to avail himself of some training in how to act like a basic, decent human.
 

Fourier

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Dec 29, 2006
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Waterloo Ontario
It definitely depends on how you utilize them so we dont disagree entirely.
Lets use FO% as an example...context matters and for example losing the draw in the D zone on the PK or in the O zone on the PP makes a big difference.
Its all about possession however unlike puck retrieval it doesnt require nearly as much time and energy to win a faceoff. So its very important.

I also didnt come to the 'soft' conclusion just from the hitting stats alone.

The primary reason why I emphasize how soft this team is because I dont think they are gritty enough to beat the teams they will need to beat to win the SC. I see the team getting pushed out of games against big heavy teams. Always being the nail (instead of the hammer) isnt an effective strategy against heavier teams like Florida, Vegas and LA.
Especially in a 7 game series. If the Oilers end up playing LA then Vegas and then Florida again I see that as a problem without (at the very least) having Kane in the lineup.
With respect to faceoffs you are conflating two different things. Yes losing a faceoff impacts immediate possession but the real issue is does it impact the score. People have done very thorough analysis of the impact of faceoffs by looking at tens of thousands of actual instances. Statistically the loss of a faceoff on the pk will result in an additional goal against about one out of 40 or so times. A generic faceoff it is about one in 75.

Derek Ryan for example took an average of 112 short handed faceoffs over the last three years. If you replaced him with a guy who won 10% fewer draws that would be about 11 more lost faceoffs on the pk or statistically that would cost you on average about one goal every 4 years. What a player is capable of doing after the faceoff turns out to be far more impactful than winning or losing a draw. Despite strong evidence to the contrary people place a much higher importance on FO% than it deserves because the very rare instances when a big goal is scored after a lost draw stick in peoples minds to a far greater degree than the events following a generic draw. And in doing so they ignore the fact that generic faceoff wins are close to random events in terms of the two players involved.

I will also add that further studies on faceoffs have shown that assessing a player's value in term of winning draws is far more complicated than raw FO% can capture. How clean is the win and were the puck is directed have a bigger impact on actual goals than simply wins vs losses. Some players have lower winning percentages but are more adept at how the wins are generated.

As far as softness is concerned you are again conflating two different things. Lack of hits are not a sign of softness. Nor are they an indicator of success. Exactly the opposite in fact. There is a fairly strong negative correlation between hits and winning over many years. In fact as I pointed out the Oilers have a 10-2-1 record vs the top ten teams in terms of hitting this year.

If you look at the Oilers losses over the last three playoffs it would be hard to put any on softness and certainly not on hits. Colorado was not a physical team in terms of hits. They were 27th in hits per game the year they won. Vegas beat the Oilers not because of their 4th liners who were very physical but because of the Marchessault-Eichel line picking apart the Oilers man to man defense and a difference in the net. Vegas' 4th line did play very physically and through a ton of hits but the Oilers actually dominated those guys when they were on the ice.

Florida was by far the most physical of the three teams they lost to. But the series did not turn on that. It came down to one goal and in reality it is easy to see a different outcome if Skinner makes the save and if Bouchard's shot goes in.

As I pointed out, many of the Oilers best players have very low hit totals but they are not at all soft. In fact, I don't see this team as being soft where it counts. They will also add Kane if you want another guy who can punish the opposition. Something that can help to turn a game. But like FO's such instances are far more rare than people's perception makes them out to be. The playoffs are also a very different environment. The intensity of the competition tends to up the physical aspect of the game for many players.
 
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