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An idea to restructure defencemen trophies

S E P H

S E P H

Cloud IX
Mar 5, 2010
32,911
18,466
Toruń, PL
Since we can all agree on that the Norris is being handed out to the defenceman who has the most points at the end of the season and defensive defencemen are not getting a fair shake, my idea to transform it into two trophies, and one main trophy that was sparked from how the MLB does its awards. This is what I had in mind...

Award these trophies first:
- Bobby Orr Trophy: Awarded to the best offensive defenceman in the league (not based on points like the Art Ross)
- Nicklas Lidstrom Trophy: Awarded to the best defensive defenceman in the league

Then this one:
- Norris Trophy: Awarded to the best defenceman in the league (either the winner of the Orr or Lidstrom trophy)

I think this will give a better chance for a defensive defenceman to win the Norris when the competition gets cut down to two overall defenders. Yes, I think the majority who would win it, would still be OFD, but with the addition of the defensive defenceman trophy, it will give an element of our game that is currently still not being valued when it should be. Pure shutdown ability is in itself, talent.

Thoughts?
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The offensive dude would still win, overcomplicated, just give a Pronger award to the best big dude. He was good at offense too, but Lidstrom was damn good at that. But ya, just 1 new award, don’t complicate it.

Edit- or maybe make the new one for highest scoring defenseman. Whoops.
 
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S E P H said:
Since we can all agree on that the Norris is being handed out to the defenceman who has the most points at the end of the season and defensive defencemen are not getting a fair shake, my idea to transform it into two trophies, and one main trophy that was sparked from how the MLB does its awards. This is what I had in mind...

Award these trophies first:
- Bobby Orr Trophy: Awarded to the best offensive defenceman in the league (not based on points like the Art Ross)
- Nicklas Lidstrom Trophy: Awarded to the best defensive defenceman in the league

Then this one:
- Norris Trophy: Awarded to the best defenceman in the league (either the winner of the Orr or Lidstrom trophy)

I think this will give a better chance for a defensive defenceman to win the Norris when the competition gets cut down to two overall defenders. Yes, I think the majority who would win it, would still be OFD, but with the addition of the defensive defenceman trophy, it will give an element of our game that is currently still not being valued when it should be. Pure shutdown ability is in itself, talent.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Would the Norris necessarily need to go to an Orr or Lidstrom winner? Imagine a situation where:

Player A, Orr winner: #1 offense, #30 defense

Player B, Lidstrom winner: #30 offense, #1 defense

Player C: #2 offense, #2 defense
 
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insomniac said:
Would the Norris necessarily need to go to an Orr or Lidstrom winner? Imagine a situation where:

Player A, Orr winner: #1 offense, #30 defense

Player B, Lidstrom winner: #30 offense, #1 defense

Player C: #2 offense, #2 defense
Click to expand...
Not at all, just spitballing ideas. However, knowing how hockey writers vote, it would either be the winner of Orr or Lidstrom just "because" hockey writers.
 
I think an award for best defensive defenseman is all we'd need. The Norris should go to the defenseman with the greatest impact/story for the year. Usually that comes with offense since... you need to produce to win and getting from the back end really helps a lot. Defense is harder to quantify (simply because a lot less effort and focus goes into stats that show defensive impact). It's also less sexy so people don't really watch the defensive metrics race all year like they do the points and goals.

We have the Vezina and we have the Jennings. We can have a Norris and a ..Whomever award.
 
It would be cool to see a best defensive award that would reward guys like Slavin. But make no mistake, the best D is probably Quinn Hughes. And if not him then Makar or Werenski.

I would not have given EK his last Norris, the D game was just too putrid. But I don't think the Norris is reflexively given to the guy with the most points. We don't need to change the Norris.

Fun fact, Paul Coffey has 1500+ pts and he only got 3 Norris Trophies. People have always understood the importance of defense for the award.
 
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What if we dropped the Norris and had one for offense like the Bobby Orr and one for defense? Chris Pronger or Denis Potvin?

For offense, we can take five on five points per 60 minutes, power play points per 60 minutes, total points. Total goals total assists and total shots on that into account.

For defense shots blocked, giveaway takeaway ratio, hits, plus minus, goals allowed for 60 minutes on the penalty kill, time spent on penalty kill. I think I would also want some stat related to the the number of penalties that the defender has taken around their net.

I think the Norris is an awesome trophy, we're in a different era of hockey now and there's at least two distinct type of defensemen and only one of them is getting appreciation these days.

majormajor said:
Fun fact, Paul Coffey has 1500+ pts and he only got 3 Norris Trophies. People have always understood the importance of defense for the award.
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My fam referred to him as Paul Cough-up for years.
 
I don't think you need to create more trophies so much as you need better voters for the Norris itself.

Strip it from the PWHA. Let the GMs vote for the Norris instead.
 
the Norris is going to guys who lead in expected goals and such stats.

Turns out spending the whole game in the offensive zone lessens the chance you get scored on.
 
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It seems like we're creating 2 more trophies, only to continuing the trend of handing out the Norris trophy to player who most likely is more productive. So 1 player gets to win 2 trophies now. I don't really like this idea and don't see too many scenario where the Norris is now awarded to an overall defensemen good at both.
 
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I would prefer we had a 'best forward' award, instead of a Selke, a Byng, A Masterton, and everyone trying to fudge their guy in for a Hart then claiming in retrospect it means best forward.

Best goalie
Best Dman
Best Forward

Close the show after half an hour and cut the bad jokes out, too.
 
S E P H said:
Since we can all agree on that the Norris is being handed out to the defenceman who has the most points at the end of the season
Click to expand...
Huh? Everyone can't possibly agree with this, it certainly isn't true.

I think a Dman needs to be productive offensively to win this award, but if some guys are really good offensively, but lacking defensively, they shouldn't win it. There have been some question marks in the past on both sides from my perspective.

This is similar to forwards, the Selke is for best defensive forward, but they still need to demonstrate offensive ability because that's part of the overall job. Same with Dmen, I don't think the best defensive Dman should win Norris if his offense is non-existent because it's still their job to contribute to offense as well.

Technically, there is a F award (Selke) and a D award (Norris).....the other awards can be won by anyone.....though, I acknowledge, the other awards are rare (almost impossible) for Dmen to win.....which leads to people suggesting an offensive defenseman award..
 
Goose said:
If you need to add, just add a defensive d-man.

But honestly, not enough NHL writers watch or understand the game well enough to be able to vote on it properly.
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Agreed, Cannot trust the voter to vote what the trophy is intended for. They don't need to complicate the meaning so just be simple around it.
 
Goose said:
If you need to add, just add a defensive d-man.

But honestly, not enough NHL writers watch or understand the game well enough to be able to vote on it properly.
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its true. I think its hard for all of us to rate properly, especially comsidering biases.

However, IF (and i do mean If) enough reporters are taking their jobs seriously, they SHOULD be getting firsthand feedback from coaches and players. Even if they dont understand what they are seeing, someone being in that position daily, who asks questions and has conversations, SHOULD be able to pick up a pretty good sense of who is blowing everyone's mind each year.
 
S E P H said:
Since we can all agree on that the Norris is being handed out to the defenceman who has the most points at the end of the season and defensive defencemen are not getting a fair shake, my idea to transform it into two trophies, and one main trophy that was sparked from how the MLB does its awards. This is what I had in mind...

Award these trophies first:
- Bobby Orr Trophy: Awarded to the best offensive defenceman in the league (not based on points like the Art Ross)
- Nicklas Lidstrom Trophy: Awarded to the best defensive defenceman in the league

Then this one:
- Norris Trophy: Awarded to the best defenceman in the league (either the winner of the Orr or Lidstrom trophy)

I think this will give a better chance for a defensive defenceman to win the Norris when the competition gets cut down to two overall defenders. Yes, I think the majority who would win it, would still be OFD, but with the addition of the defensive defenceman trophy, it will give an element of our game that is currently still not being valued when it should be. Pure shutdown ability is in itself, talent.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I think Rod Langway would make more sense if we're going to name a trophy for a defensive defenseman.
 
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CTHabsfan said:
I think Rod Langway would make more sense if we're going to name a trophy for a defensive defenseman.
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its true. Lidstrom actually led dmen in points many, many times. He was simply the best overall dman. Langway was purely defence.

Although, it still astounds me that Langway won those - just how much better can one be defensively in order to close the offensive gap? Coffey was a 10 offensively those years, Bourque could be seen as low as an 8, i suppose... but Langway was below league average... perhaps a 4. Was Coffey THAT bad defensively (when he owned the puck so much) or was Bourque not at least CLOSE to Langway in defence? Closer than their difference in offence?

Maybe too simplistic of a way of looking at it, but those two awards still surprise me.
 
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