America WJC

[c_mak]

All right... I'll make two points, and then call it a day.

1)When Americans play sports they are generally pationate about them. Look at the members of team USA this year, and tell me that they're not warriors too. JR and Hatcher and Chelios and Tkachuk and Amonte are just as passionate about hockey as any Canadian players. And when I look at the average QB or running back, or whatever in the NFL... those guys are warriors too.

2)I know Canadians are pationate... but size is just too much. Newfoundland is very pationate about hockey, and there are half a million people in the province. This is close to the team that they field if they ever made a provincial team

Dan Cleary - Jason King - Michael Ryder
Darren Langdon - Harold Druken - Terry Ryan
Tony White - Andy Sullivan - Alex Faulkner
Chad Penney - Dwayne Norris - Jason Morgan

John Slaney - Keith Brown
Brad Brown - Dave Pichette
Bob Gladney - Joe Lundrigan

Doug Grant - Mark Fitzpatrick

It's fine, but look at the team with about six times NFLD's size in BC.

Kariya-Sakic-Recchi
Ronning-Yzerman-McCarty
Deadmarsh-Morrison-Niedermayer
Horcoff-Scatchard-Stevenson

Brewer-Niedermayer
Hannan-Jackman
Hamhuis-Montador

Osgood

Now tell me that the newfies wouldn't get crushed... it's not because they lack passion or anything... they just don't have the numbers.

Loved this post ..puts things into perspective...the U.S. is sports crazy...witness the fact that they give athletic scholarchips and Canadinas give only academic ones..(does that mean we Canadinas are smarter... ) anyhow the states junoirs beat us..ahh well w'ell get 'em next year or the year after that either way one thing is always for sure Canada cares more about junior hockey and will always be in the medal running finally..... isn't Yzerman form Ottawa?

 

[stockwizard*]

You can't say that the advantage is nullified unless you have some proof that blacks wouldn't be able to skate faster.

Just because skating is not running that doesn't mean they wouldn't have the same advantage.

I have to give proof that blacks wouldn't necessarily be able to skate faster. Get real.

Should I ask for proof that blacks can run faster, even though this is obviously the case.

 

[degroat*]

I have to give proof that blacks wouldn't necessarily be able to skate faster. Get real.

Yes.

You're stating that you know blacks wouldn't have a skating advantage.

Prove it.

Until then black people may or may not have a skating advantage.

 

[Slay]

Well laid out argument.

Canada does have 30 million people to draw from though. Look at Russia, they have 150 million and a love for the game. We still routinely beat them. I understand they don't have the resources as the U.S., but still.

With this logic we can bring here China. 40 times bigger population than Canadian. But it is not only about population. It is about rinks, equipment, level of coaches... and as a result - beautiful hockey. With all of this popularity and passionate will come.

The Russia example is a good one, although I wonder what percentage of Russian youths play hockey as opposed to soccer, tennis, chess, or vodka-ing...

It is not "vodka-ing", it is "litreball"

Russia develops almost every sport and doing pretty well at them. The place for hockey is not that big as someone may think. Small amount of rinks limits hockey development.. kids go to another sports:

The most popular team sports in Russia besides hockey are:
-soccer (a lot of kids play it but the level of competition is pretty average, I think amount of players more than in hockey),
-basketball (also a lot of kids play it, every big city has the team, Russia has a good youth, one of the best in Europe),
-volleyball (also very popular sport, Russia have one of the most talented youth in the world, also Russian Volleyball League probably the strongest in Europe alongside with the Italian League),
-handball (developed pretty good since Russia could build the team and win 3 of the last 4 Olympics),
-water polo (national team is very strong but looks like youth is not that good),
-bandy (very popular in few cities, national team is one of the strongest in the world),
-rugby (popular in few cities, level of competition is average).

Not team sports:
-swimming (popular, youth is top 1-2 in Europe but small number of pools slows down its developing),
-underwater swimming (beautiful sport, popular in several cities, especially in Siberia, youth is one of the best in the world),
wrestling, boxing, diving, fencing, shooting, acrobatics, gymnastics, weightlifting, canoe... - very well developed sports producing top end athlets, Olympic gold medalists.

Now I'll bring an example of my city Krasnoyarsk. Most popular and developed sports here are bandy (top 2 team in Russia), rugby(2 best teams in Russia), wrestling(few active Olympic champions), basketball (low level), soccer(low level), underwater swimming (good level), rock-climbing and many others. We have a hockey team (back after bankruptcy a year ago) that plays somewhere in 2rd League. Our 1 million city have just 1 indoor hockey rink. I can imaging if most resources would be dropped into hockey instead all those sports... though I wouldn't want it... but few more hockey rinks wouldn't hurt and I hope they will be built soon.

 

[Steve Latin*]

Should I ask for proof that blacks can run faster, even though this is obviously the case.

Is it? I think I could outrun Shaq or Warren Sapp. Does that mean that whites are faster than blacks?

There's a large variety of body types in Africans, and African Americans (believe it or not, there is a difference). I don't think you can make gross generalizations on skin color alone. Just because Kenyans win the Boston marathon every single year doesn't mean that a Pygmy could do the same thing.

S L

 

[nomorekids]

I think the point that Mobey\Rabid Ranger\et al. is trying to make, stockwizard...isn't that the kids in the US that play hockey aren't the best athletes..but rather, if hockey were as popular on the whole in the United States as it is Canada...this discussion would probably be completely irrelevant. It's nothing against Canada, but the sheer population\wealth of a country like the US would suggest that if hockey were one of the 'big three,' the US would likely be the best in the world. right now..the best hockey athletes in the US eventually make it to the NHL..through either the NCAA, the NDTP or even the CHL. these kids are drawn from the 5 or 6 hotbeds(various places in minnesota, massachusetts, new york, maine, connecticut and michigan), that is...the places with developed hockey programs. now...could you imagine what would happen...if that type of exposure was multiplied by ten? or even more..considering that even in the places where hockey is its' most popular in the united states...it still takes a backseat to the other sports. the results would be pretty astounding. there are millions of kids in the united states that go into football, baseball, basketball or even soccer...that have never and may never see a hockey game. is this to say that if they had made a different choice or lived somewhere else....they couldn't have been good hockey players? of course not. the football analogy applies..though maybe someone like ray lewis is a bad example. think instead...someone like emmitt smith or barry sanders. i guarantee you that with their level of athleticism...if they had strapped skates on at age 4...and started the long road toward pro hockey in the US or Canada...you'd probably looking at two solid NHL players. it's impossible to say for sure, of course...but I feel pretty confident in such an inferrence. I think the point that's being made isn't that the best athletes in the US don't play hockey...because I'm sure that some of the US's better players should be considered "up there." rather, i think the idea is that the US doesn't have the POOL of great athletes to draw from, solely because of the fact that hockey is considered by most in the US to be a second tier sport. when you consider that...in SPITE OF this...the US is still one of the top hockey nations in the world...having won the WJC this year and even giving Canada a pretty stiff match in the gold medal game of the Olympics...it's impossible not to think that if hockey had even twice as many youth participants as it does now...the result would be the strongest team in the world. what people like rabid ranger often say...is that hockey is slowly gaining popularity. i grew up in nashville and played hockey my entire life..and that was before the Preds even came to town. since that happened? the youth hockey program has exploded, and there's some good kids coming out of the system. no one NHL or even CHL caliber..but a few have gone on to play college hockey. as money increases and development\programs get better...it could only be a matter of time before the non-traditional markets start contributing\attracting more kids...and then what? time will tell.

 

[stockwizard*]

Yes.

You're stating that you know blacks wouldn't have a skating advantage.

Prove it.

Until then black people may or may not have a skating advantage.

Why don't you prove that blacks would have a skating advantage over whites?

Whites might even have a skating advantage over blacks. Who knows.
Who cares.

There are enough blacks playing hockey, and no one has ever won the faster skater.

Obviously there has never been a scientic study as to which can skate faster, so there is no absolute proof. Just like there is no proof that whites can skate faster.

 

[stockwizard*]

I think the point that Mobey\Rabid Ranger\et al. is trying to make, stockwizard...isn't that the kids in the US that play hockey aren't the best athletes..but rather, if hockey were as popular on the whole in the United States as it is Canada...this discussion would probably be completely irrelevant. It's nothing against Canada, but the sheer population\wealth of a country like the US would suggest that if hockey were one of the 'big three,' the US would likely be the best in the world. right now..the best hockey athletes in the US eventually make it to the NHL..through either the NCAA, the NDTP or even the CHL. these kids are drawn from the 5 or 6 hotbeds(various places in minnesota, massachusetts, new york, maine, connecticut and michigan), that is...the places with developed hockey programs. now...could you imagine what would happen...if that type of exposure was multiplied by ten? or even more..considering that even in the places where hockey is its' most popular in the united states...it still takes a backseat to the other sports. the results would be pretty astounding. there are millions of kids in the united states that go into football, baseball, basketball or even soccer...that have never and may never see a hockey game. is this to say that if they had made a different choice or lived somewhere else....they couldn't have been good hockey players? of course not. the football analogy applies..though maybe someone like ray lewis is a bad example. think instead...someone like emmitt smith or barry sanders. i guarantee you that with their level of athleticism...if they had strapped skates on at age 4...and started the long road toward pro hockey in the US or Canada...you'd probably looking at two solid NHL players. it's impossible to say for sure, of course...but I feel pretty confident in such an inferrence. I think the point that's being made isn't that the best athletes in the US don't play hockey...because I'm sure that some of the US's better players should be considered "up there." rather, i think the idea is that the US doesn't have the POOL of great athletes to draw from, solely because of the fact that hockey is considered by most in the US to be a second tier sport. when you consider that...in SPITE OF this...the US is still one of the top hockey nations in the world...having won the WJC this year and even giving Canada a pretty stiff match in the gold medal game of the Olympics...it's impossible not to think that if hockey had even twice as many youth participants as it does now...the result would be the strongest team in the world. what people like rabid ranger often say...is that hockey is slowly gaining popularity. i grew up in nashville and played hockey my entire life..and that was before the Preds even came to town. since that happened? the youth hockey program has exploded, and there's some good kids coming out of the system. no one NHL or even CHL caliber..but a few have gone on to play college hockey. as money increases and development\programs get better...it could only be a matter of time before the non-traditional markets start contributing\attracting more kids...and then what? time will tell.

I would agree with what you are saying.

This is not however what the others were saying, and I was not the only one confused by them. I have no idea however, what they meant to say because I am not a mind reader and all I have to go by is their written words.

 

[Bure9*]

I think the point that Mobey\Rabid Ranger\et al. is trying to make, stockwizard...isn't that the kids in the US that play hockey aren't the best athletes..but rather, if hockey were as popular on the whole in the United States as it is Canada...this discussion would probably be completely irrelevant. It's nothing against Canada, but the sheer population\wealth of a country like the US would suggest that if hockey were one of the 'big three,' the US would likely be the best in the world. right now..the best hockey athletes in the US eventually make it to the NHL..through either the NCAA, the NDTP or even the CHL. these kids are drawn from the 5 or 6 hotbeds(various places in minnesota, massachusetts, new york, maine, connecticut and michigan), that is...the places with developed hockey programs. now...could you imagine what would happen...if that type of exposure was multiplied by ten? or even more..considering that even in the places where hockey is its' most popular in the united states...it still takes a backseat to the other sports. the results would be pretty astounding. there are millions of kids in the united states that go into football, baseball, basketball or even soccer...that have never and may never see a hockey game. is this to say that if they had made a different choice or lived somewhere else....they couldn't have been good hockey players? of course not. the football analogy applies..though maybe someone like ray lewis is a bad example. think instead...someone like emmitt smith or barry sanders. i guarantee you that with their level of athleticism...if they had strapped skates on at age 4...and started the long road toward pro hockey in the US or Canada...you'd probably looking at two solid NHL players. it's impossible to say for sure, of course...but I feel pretty confident in such an inferrence. I think the point that's being made isn't that the best athletes in the US don't play hockey...because I'm sure that some of the US's better players should be considered "up there." rather, i think the idea is that the US doesn't have the POOL of great athletes to draw from, solely because of the fact that hockey is considered by most in the US to be a second tier sport. when you consider that...in SPITE OF this...the US is still one of the top hockey nations in the world...having won the WJC this year and even giving Canada a pretty stiff match in the gold medal game of the Olympics...it's impossible not to think that if hockey had even twice as many youth participants as it does now...the result would be the strongest team in the world. what people like rabid ranger often say...is that hockey is slowly gaining popularity. i grew up in nashville and played hockey my entire life..and that was before the Preds even came to town. since that happened? the youth hockey program has exploded, and there's some good kids coming out of the system. no one NHL or even CHL caliber..but a few have gone on to play college hockey. as money increases and development\programs get better...it could only be a matter of time before the non-traditional markets start contributing\attracting more kids...and then what? time will tell.

You talk about hockey only getting talent out of select hotbeds in the country. What about basketball and football? It can be argued that these kids are only coming out of a select number of inner-cities. Where are the suburbanites? Or I guess since most people in the suburbs are white they suck.

 

[degroat*]

Why don't you prove that blacks would have a skating advantage over whites?

Perhaps because I never said that they did?

You're the one saying that they wouldn't/won't/don't. So...

Prove it.

 

[stockwizard*]

Perhaps because I never said that they did?

You're the one saying that they wouldn't/won't/don't. So...

Prove it.

Let's get this straight. You want me to prove that blacks are no better at skating than whites.

Nice self loathing.

Obviously you can't give scientic proof.

I could say since in the Olympics the speed skater champions are all white, therefore we are better skaters. But I know this won't prove anything.

Skating and running are totally different and results speak for themselves.

I was friends with someone in high school and we both started skating at the same time.
He could kill me in a running sprint, and I was much faster than him on the ice.

 

[degroat*]

No, what I really want you to do is admit that you have no clue whether or not black people would have an advantage in ice skating ability because there is no evidence to support your claim.

 

[nomorekids]

You talk about hockey only getting talent out of select hotbeds in the country. What about basketball and football? It can be argued that these kids are only coming out of a select number of inner-cities. Where are the suburbanites? Or I guess since most people in the suburbs are white they suck.

well, even if that argument weren't flawed...there's a lot more inner cities than there are "hockey hotbeds," but the idea that all the best football and basketball players come out of inner-cities is questionable and troublesome in itself. i mean, i realize that straight-gangsta eli manning may have come up on the mean streets of mississippi, but that's not the case for everyone

 

[Bure9*]

No, what I really want you to do is admit that you have no clue whether or not black people would have an advantage in ice skating ability because there is no evidence to support your claim.

There's enough black players in the NHL to determine how they can stack up against the current talent. As far as skating goes, look at Mike Grier or Laraque. They aren't very quick on their feet. Certainly not on Modano's level or a Fedorov. There are also players like Daley and Iginla who are good skaters as compared to Dale Purinton.

 

[degroat*]

There's enough black players in the NHL to determine how they can stack up against the current talent. As far as skating goes, look at Mike Grier or Laraque. They aren't very quick on their feet. Certainly not on Modano's level or a Fedorov. There are also players like Daley and Iginla who are good skaters as compared to Dale Purinton.

There are also players like Jamal Mayers whose speed before he tore his ACL and MCL was as good as any player in hockey. Then there's Shawn Belle who Jarmo Kelelainen called the best skater he has ever seen.

 

[college hockey]

You talk about hockey only getting talent out of select hotbeds in the country. What about basketball and football? It can be argued that these kids are only coming out of a select number of inner-cities. Where are the suburbanites? Or I guess since most people in the suburbs are white they suck.

Sure most basketball players come out of the inner cities,but far more football players come from the suburbs. As far as most people being white in the suburbs take a look around they're a lot more diverse now then 15 years ago.