All the goal scoring greats start their career in 2005-06. Who outscores Ovechkin?

No there are just 5X the number of top 50 goal scorers born in the 60s because there were 5X as many good scorers 😉

Brother many of the players of today haven't even finished their careers and played the amount of requisite games to climb the list, even the reductio ad absurdum you are getting at falls flat for just that superficial reason, at least go by single season numbers to make this point lol
 
Brother many of the players of today haven't even finished their careers and played the amount of requisite games to climb the list, even the reductio ad absurdum you are getting at falls flat for just that superficial reason, at least go by single season numbers to make this point lol
A player born in 1989 is 36 right now… I gave credit to Kane for a few more goals. Not sure how many more guys you think are going to crack top 50.
 
What reason do you say this? If you are going to quote leaguewide goals per game and use that to make a simplistic value judgement that it was "far easier to score" because the number is higher, then quite frankly we aren't even on the same level axiomatically to be able to avoid talking past each other.

I’m fine with that.

All I’m depending on is 4 decades of comprehensive data across every team and every player and every single goal scored that is validated by stats and trends from elite player comparisons.
 
There were 84 fifty goal seasons by other players during Lemieux's first 15 seasons in the NHL.

There were 14 fifty goal seasons by other players during Ovechkin's first 15 seasons in the NHL.

It's a significant difference.
 
If you watch Ovechkin highlights from 06-10 he was a really good stick handler. Not in the Kane tier but just below.

I have to assume that accumulated wrist injuries or something just destroyed his handle over the years.

So I feel like “make everyone else magically healthy” without giving Ovechkin the same benefit is kind of an unfair and pointless thing to do.
 
It certainly wouldn't be easy for anybody to score 900 goals in this era (or multiple eras). What Ovechkin has done is unbelievably great.

I guess we can start with Matthews, who's 12 years younger than Ovechkin, and has an easy 400 goals currently. Can he get to 900? It's possibly, and it's very difficult.

Lemieux and Bure are the other fairly recent guys who'd have a chance. Lemieux's the best ever and Bure is right up there. Lemieux could do it all as a goal-scorer. Bure probably utilized speed, and combination speed and stickhandling, better than any of the great goal-scorers.

Of the other guys who scored a lot of goals, probably Gretzky and Esposito are the most suspect in this time period.
 
One thing I don’t see considered her yet is Ovi is 39 and still has the 2nd highest gpg mark in the league. He could realistically stick around and add another couple hundred goals if he had the proper motivation. And maybe chasing this record would provide that motivation.

I mean think about that. He’s in year 20 and hasn’t even really hit a decline yet. So the real answer is nobody.
 
The Hulls, Esposito, M Lemieux, P Bure probably could challenge Ovechkin.

But again - if Ovechkin doesn't have any injuries, he'll probably will be in the region of 1,000 goals by now
 
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Mario is my first guess. Health is a big issue. From a goals per game standpoint Mario is king here. Bossy is too, but Mario just had a more broad arsenal. Gretzky is in the mix too. For whatever reason people forget just how natural of a goal scorer he was in the early stages of his career.
 
I don't understand these "time travel" topics about players from vastly different eras. Honestly, these topics just seem silly. Obviously, if Charlie Conacher was suddenly born in 1995 instead of 1909, he's going to play like a 2020s'-era player, not a 1930s' era player. Obviously, if Wayne Gretzky was born in 1995 instead of 1961, he's going to grow up with a whippy stick and learn to score on goalies of today's style, not goalies of 1970s/80s/90s' styles. And obviously if Mario Lemieux was born in 1921 instead of 1965, he would have developed skills and strategies alongside Maurice Richard's, not Gretzky's or Yzerman's.

Certainly we can discuss how certain players aged or developed over a span of time, and likewise we can try to rank the best / greatest goal-scorers or whatever, but in my view we simply cannot (and really, shouldn't) even get into these time-travel topics.

Rant over...

With that out of the way, I think, given no major injuries and everything else being equal, I would probably rank the best goal-scorers something like this:

Tier 1
Maurice Richard
Bobby Hull
Mario Lemieux
Alex Ovechkin

Tier 2
Gordie Howe
Mike Bossy
Wayne Gretzky
Brett Hull
Pavel Bure

Tier 3
Charlie Conacher
Phil Esposito
Jaromir Jágr
Teemu Selänne
(Probably Sergei Makarov, but hard to evaluate in context)

Tier 4
Several, including: Geoffrion / Lafleur / Kurri / Yzerman / Shanahan / Iginla / Crosby / Stamkos, etc., etc....
 
Here is the official memo from NHL:
Old heads punching air right now knowing that the guy that:

A) has the most raw goals in history
B) has the most adjusted goals in history
C) has lead the league in goals the most times in history

Got officially crowned that by the NHL itself LOL
 
Same as the consensus, Mario. I think that regardless of era, if his health is not an issue, he's the best.
 
Alex Ovechkin, recently crowned as the greatest goal scorer of all time by virtue of raw totals as well, got his NHL career started in 2005. We know he's been incredibly consistent and durable, almost scoring 50 in three different decades (paced for over 50 this season). The raw peak of 65 goals is good but not incredible. Then again, it's still estimated as the 2nd best OAT in adjusted goals (after Brett Hull, if my memory serves). Most people would likely agree Gretzky reached his peak of 92 and 87 (pace of 94) goals in pretty much optimal conditions and wouldn't gotten so high once goaltending and defensive schemes markedly improved. Maybe the same can be said of other snipers whose MO was slapshot. Mario Lemieux, probably the most talented and versatile goal scorer, stayed effective heading to the dead puck era and even torched the league in one of his comebacks in 2000-01, though the sample size wasn't ample. Pavel Bure seemed quite unphased by changes in league wide scoring but wasn't built for a long career. Brett Hull might've had the best peak but how much of it do we credit Adam Oates for, and how would that short-lived companionship have played out during the post lockout salary cap era? Do we even care to think of the early forefathers, the likes of Frank Nighbor and Joe Malone? This kind of thought excercise may raise more questions than answers but it's always fun to speculate.

For the purposes of this excercise I think it's fair to allow players reasonable health improvement, at least for the fact that they'd be able to enjoy the fruits of 2000s medicine including improved surgery techniques and rehab, changes in playing styles, rules (no red line, no clutch and grab), lifestyle (no-one smokes anymore etc.), advances in equipment and goaltending etc. Not sure about the effect of salary cap (unlikely Bossy gets to play with Trottier et al. his whole career).

I suspect Mario would be, perhaps rather narrowly but still clearly more prolific than Ovechkin in this scenario. Howe in 2000s environment might have even better longevity than Ovi and with a prime almost as good as Lemieux. Ovi might take third place. Bure would be close but he loses in longevity. Bobby Hull would be up there, maybe better than Brett whose peak was short. Not sure with Esposito here, does Orr play in the 2000s as well, lol. Bossy is a curious case as a great candidate for the oft-quoted demand for 20x45 goals (to get to 895). No idea with Rocket Richard. I think one clear loser here is Matthews who doesn't get any advantage of what if - if anything, his numbers would drop. Of other notables I'd see an increase in Teemu Selänne's numbers even though he'd be hard pressed to reach his career high of 76 goals. As for The Great One I don't know how to place him but I don't think he makes the top3 and it's unlikely he gets the single season record either, looking at how he used to get his goals in the 80s -- then again you're reminded how much better he was than everyone, including Bossy... But given how much more talent there's today I think he really goes wild as the best playmaker.

Gretzky would still take off in early years and probably be #1, or close....but eventually he slows down and gets surpassed (as his goal-scoring career played out in reality).

Ovechkin has excellents odds to be #1 by 2025, 20 years later. In fact, he's definitely the favorite to me. Gretzky wouldn't keep up over the long-term, by year ~15 Ovi would pass him. Here are the few names who might keep up:

1. Mario Lemieux. He's a better goal-scorer than Ovechkin (or anyone else). Give him perfect health & longevity, and he's #1 all-time, and by a lot. I think OP is implying some reasonable health improvement - but it's hard to figure out exactly what that means. If he plays enough healthy seasons, he's #1

2. Bobby Hull. Tremendous goal-scorer. He doesn't really contend for most raw goals ever for two big reasons. First, his era was very low scoring. Second, he left for the WHA. In this hypothetical - neither dynamic is in play, so I think he would be Ovechkin's biggest threat. I still see Ovechkin finshing ahead though - it might be close through age ~35 or so, but Ovechkin simply hasn't slowed, and I think he would win the marathon of a race

3. Mike Bossy. If you ask me who the most consistent goal-scorer of all-time in their prime was, I'm tempted to have Bossy #1, or close. Up until he retired early. So - his whole 30s is a huge question mark. Is he the type to age well with good health? It's possible. My guess is he stays close to Bobby Hull and Ovechkin for a while, but I think he slows down a lot by age ~33-35 and doesn't keep up long-term. But - it's just a guess, since we didn't see him age out.

4. Auston Matthews. Tremendous goal-scorer. Injuries have hurt him quite a bit too...no major injuries, but just nagging ones that have definitely impeded his goals in some years. If you improve that for him a bit health-wise, I think through age 27 (his current age) he'd be ahead of Ovechkin in goals. Obviously the huge question mark is how long does he keep it up, and how well does he age? One more issue - I don't know that I see Matthews as the type of person who wants to be playing up to age ~40. I could see him retire early, rich and enjoy life by age ~35-36, and if so he won't contend for raw goals. But - if he did play a full career, he'd be a contender.

I don't think anyone else challenges Ovechkin. Both Maurice Richard and Gordie Howe would score a ton of goals and rank very high (possibly even top 3-5), but Ovechkin remains ahead.

So - for me it's Ovechkin #1 for raw goals, with Lemieux being the only one who can top him, but it all comes down to health.
 
A lot of people snoozing on Maurice Richard in this thread. (I think only me and one other poster have mentioned him...?)

-- The Rocket's Hockey-Ref. "adjusted" goals are 653 goals in only 978 games. This works out to 0.67 goals per game over 18 seasons. But let's imagine that, from 2005, The Rocket played 17 full seasons (nothing special for elite players nowadays). Ovechkin played 1274 games during that span, scoring 780 goals. If The Rocket plays these extra 296 games (he missed those games because of shorter seasons back then), he adds on about 198 goals. This brings his career "adjusted" total to 851 goals in just seventeen seasons -- 71 more goals than Ovi in the same period, roughly speaking. If he plays three more years, although getting older, he would easily score 43 more goals to tie the Gretzky mark, and then...?

-- For 46 years from 1917 to 1963, nobody scored more NHL goals than Maurice Richard.

-- Rocket scored a staggering (esp. considering how low-scoring the NHL was for much of his career) 82 playoff goals in 132 games (or, 81 goals in 121 games -- 55 goals per 82GP -- before he aged out). He wouldn't have so many chances to win Cups, obviously, in the recent era, but he might play just as many playoff games in the four-round era. (Ovechkin has already played almost 20 more playoff games than Richard ever appeared in, scoring 10 fewer goals.)
 
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One thing Richard would have to contend with is the hard cap/draft system which would mean he’s not going to just play on the best team for his entire career, which helps a goal scorer a good bit.
 
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-- The Rocket's Hockey-Ref. "adjusted" goals are 653 goals in only 978 games. This works out to 0.67 goals per game over 18 seasons.
This is a specific flaw in H-R's adjustments, especially now that you can toggle per-game stats in every table.
The adjusted goal totals are fit to an 82 game season, but the games played totals stay the same. That way you have Jagr's 1994-95 season showing as 2.52 adjusted points per game, miles ahead of any other season he played, when we know Jagr performed at about the same level as 1995 for the next decade or so.
 
This is a specific flaw in H-R's adjustments, especially now that you can toggle per-game stats in every table.
The adjusted goal totals are fit to an 82 game season, but the games played totals stay the same. That way you have Jagr's 1994-95 season showing as 2.52 adjusted points per game, miles ahead of any other season he played, when we know Jagr performed at about the same level as 1995 for the next decade or so.
That's right. Frustratingly, HR.com calculates adjusted games played, but it doesn't show the result. Richard got credited with 1,255 adjusted GP. So he "only" scored 0.52 adjusted goals per game (which is lower than what he actually scored).
 
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This is a specific flaw in H-R's adjustments, especially now that you can toggle per-game stats in every table.
The adjusted goal totals are fit to an 82 game season, but the games played totals stay the same. That way you have Jagr's 1994-95 season showing as 2.52 adjusted points per game, miles ahead of any other season he played, when we know Jagr performed at about the same level as 1995 for the next decade or so.
I was not aware. Then, my point above, does not stand.

That said, I seem to remember that when someone did the VsX for goal scorers in history -- I think, for the ten-year period -- Richard was #1 all time?
 
One thing Richard would have to contend with is the hard cap/draft system which would mean he’s not going to just play on the best team for his entire career, which helps a goal scorer a good bit.
Contrary to uninformed opinion, Richard did not play for the best team for his entire career. When he joined the Canadiens in 1942, they had just come off a .402 season, finishing 6th of 7 teams. In 1948, the Canadiens fell to 6th place of 7 teams and missed the playoffs (Richard finished 3rd in goals scored). Similarly, in 1949, 1950, and 1951, the Canadiens were just an average team in wins vs. losses and only made the playoffs because two or three clubs were really bad. In '51, the Canadiens were 4th of 6 clubs in offense, scoring only 2.47 goals per game, and Richard thrived, doubling his next-best teammate in goals, and scoring only 1 goal less than Gordie Howe at his peak.
 
In '51, the Canadiens were 4th of 6 clubs in offense, scoring only 2.47 goals per game, and Richard thrived, doubling his next-best teammate in goals, and scoring only 1 goal less than Gordie Howe at his peak.
Yeah, that's the other rub, he and Gordie Howe are only seven years apart, and Howe finishes with 257 more career goals, so I probably need a bit more to show he's getting passed Howe in career totals before getting to Ovechkin. I guess we can say that's the 7-year difference between Howe and Richard is enough to get Howe into Expansion to really help prolong dominance into ages player "shouldn't", with half the league diluted over night. But even still, somewhat conveniently, Gordie Howe's age 38 season was the last of the Original Six, 1966-67, and age 38 was Richard's last season. After 1966-67, Howe is at 649 goals, over 100 ahead of Richard's 544 career total. Maybe we still get there with GPG, but Richard is benefitting from World War II era silliness in terms of league quality/scoring as well, which Howe does not.
 

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