All Purpose PK Subban Discussion Thread

[Armourboy]

Some people just aren't a big fan of big, bubbly personalities. Generally speaking they tend to get on my nerves and come off as fake most of the time, especially if it's constant.

That said I have no real issue with PK in that regard, and while he comes off as an attention seeker that is not a bad thing if you have lots of guys who don't care for the spotlight.

 

[Soundgarden]

I don't think anybody hates him or wants to run him out of town, I'm just sick of Montreal fans telling us he's the best defenseman in the league these past two seasons. He has really struggled at times and has not looked elite or even generational like some make him out to be.
Someone on the main board compared him to Lidstrom, Pronger and Chara based on his zone usage or something, it's just a little frustrating when we've seen our fair share of very good defenseman including one who could have easily won multiple Norris trophies, the Montreal hype is just ridiculous.
Not that I'm complaining, I'll gladly take a player people consider the best in the league on our team any day of the week.

His play in the playoffs last year was incredible though, some of the best shut down defending I've seen, and if he can play an entire season at that level, he'd easily have another Norris on his shelf. I'm glad his play has improved over this year too, can't wait for the playoffs.

 

[LCPreds]

He may not be generational but in my opinion he's the best d-man on the Preds roster.

 

[drwpreds]

I don't think anybody hates him or wants to run him out of town, I'm just sick of Montreal fans telling us he's the best defenseman in the league these past two seasons. He has really struggled at times and has not looked elite or even generational like some make him out to be. .

Just conversation here, not trying to be argumentative- but I don't know why people worry about what Montreal fans say? To me that should not affect your view of Subban one iota. When I look at him and judge him, what anyone else says, whether it is Montreal fans, media or anyone else, means nothing to me.

And I still say that a large number of Preds fans are completely underrating his play as a Predator. I will agree that he struggled the first half of last year. How much of that had to do with getting acclimated to new team and role and the injury, who knows?

But since then? This is just my own opinion, but starting with the second half of last year, the playoffs and the first half of this year, I think he absolutely has been elite. Not getting into hyperbole like "generational" or "best the league" Not saying that at all. But elite? Yes, absolutely.

And I still think people completely underestimate his defensive ability. My impression of him in the past had been a great offensive player and so so defense. But his defensive play has been outstanding, much better than I ever thought he was.

Again, just my opinion, but if anything, he has slightly exceeded the expectations I had when the trade was made. At worst, he has lived up to them.

 

[BigFatCat999]

I'm an accounting student. I fight my mom all the time about doing the federal taxes. Was bored and calculated how much money PK Subban saved moving from Montreal to Nashville. Sweet Mother of God.

 

[Drake744]

If Subban had played his first 7(?) years for Carolina, Florida, Arizona, New Jersey, or pretty much about 24 of the other 29 teams at the time, the "hype" surrounding him would've been much more tempered. I understand that Habs fans loved him and they're biased, which I have no problem with, I just don't think it should affect any of our opinions on him.

 

[GoldOnGold]

IMO, Subban is the best d-man on the Preds.

 

[NSH615]

Just conversation here, not trying to be argumentative- but I don't know why people worry about what Montreal fans say? To me that should not affect your view of Subban one iota. When I look at him and judge him, what anyone else says, whether it is Montreal fans, media or anyone else, means nothing to me.

And I still say that a large number of Preds fans are completely underrating his play as a Predator. I will agree that he struggled the first half of last year. How much of that had to do with getting acclimated to new team and role and the injury, who knows?

But since then? This is just my own opinion, but starting with the second half of last year, the playoffs and the first half of this year, I think he absolutely has been elite. Not getting into hyperbole like "generational" or "best the league" Not saying that at all. But elite? Yes, absolutely.

And I still think people completely underestimate his defensive ability. My impression of him in the past had been a great offensive player and so so defense. But his defensive play has been outstanding, much better than I ever thought he was.

Again, just my opinion, but if anything, he has slightly exceeded the expectations I had when the trade was made. At worst, he has lived up to them.

The only thing that bothers me about this and we have some fans who do the same. I have my own opinion about him, he drives me crazy and what not, but I've tried to be less vocal about the situation compared to 6 months to a year ago. I also do not like that if not every day, then at minimum every week on here, someone trying to shove "PK is the best thing to ever happen to hockey" down our throats on here. I think the fan craziness surrounding him actually is part of what makes me dislike him if that makes any sense. Kind of like the over the top Toronto, Edmonton, and Chicago fans have been.

 

[Soundgarden]

Just conversation here, not trying to be argumentative- but I don't know why people worry about what Montreal fans say? To me that should not affect your view of Subban one iota. When I look at him and judge him, what anyone else says, whether it is Montreal fans, media or anyone else, means nothing to me.

And I still say that a large number of Preds fans are completely underrating his play as a Predator. I will agree that he struggled the first half of last year. How much of that had to do with getting acclimated to new team and role and the injury, who knows?

But since then? This is just my own opinion, but starting with the second half of last year, the playoffs and the first half of this year, I think he absolutely has been elite. Not getting into hyperbole like "generational" or "best the league" Not saying that at all. But elite? Yes, absolutely.

And I still think people completely underestimate his defensive ability. My impression of him in the past had been a great offensive player and so so defense. But his defensive play has been outstanding, much better than I ever thought he was.

Again, just my opinion, but if anything, he has slightly exceeded the expectations I had when the trade was made. At worst, he has lived up to them.

I just find it annoying is all, but it did give me high expectations which I felt he couldn't live up to when he got here. He's definitely proven he's among the elites in this league, to say that he's unequivocally the best though just kind of gets my goat.

 

[drwpreds]

One thing I think all Preds fans can now agree on is this- just look at the Weber situation in Montreal. He is still a very good player, but he is sidelined indefinitely and certainly isn't getting any younger. Meanwhile we have an in his prime PK Subban locked up for years to come.

What a genius trade by Poile- unbelievable...........

 

[Tempfan99]

i do beleive he is still underrated by most of posters here because ive seen him play in mtl. but he used to get more ice time and PP time. that havent been the case last season.

take a d-man worh 27min average that always play on the first pp wave and give him 22min and the second pp wave and u eont get the same results.

with 4 very good D-men its pretty normal that he doesnt get the same ice time than anywhere else but still he should be the most used (lately he is).

i dont think ive seen one poster here saying they would undo the trade though. he steps his game up when the challenge is bigger. thats why u see him play way better vs elite players. not trying to do too much. the mistakes he makes are frustrating because they would be easy to fixe. thats why you dont see him do those mistakes in the playoffs. but u gotta live with them because he is great when it counts.

im a weber fan and a bigger subban fan but i used to think weber was better. now that ive seen weber a whole season, i dont.

 

[Pred303]

subban is among the top 10 overall defensemen in the league, as was weber in a different way. it was a great trade simply because subban is 4 years younger than weber and he probably fits lavy's untempo style desire. weber had a bad contract, subban had a bad contract (from dollar totals), i mean subban's cap hit this year is 11 million. it made us the only ones logically able to swap those contracts. personally i still worry about the trade because of the possible unknown recapture penalties if weber quits early, that's my only real concern over the trade and it will be until that is settled/dropped/whatever. from a player perspective the trade was fine for us.

i too find it disturbing that mostly montreal fans try to constantly statistically prove subban is the greatest d-man in the league (partly to discredit their own gm and coach who they hate), when we know josi is just as important overall to us as a team (for example, the constant use of 'defensive zone starts', when the advanced stat number they use (60%+) is really defensive zone starts plus neutral zone starts, in actuality, subban has had 25% defensive zone starts and 35% plus neutral zone starts. which 25% d-zone draw starts aren't really statistically much different than ekholm/josi/weber/irwin really have. subban has been very good lately, we don't need to exaggerate numbers to out trump the eye test. i try to not let the montreal hero worship affect me, but i admit it inevitably does, even though it shouldn't. i'm not subban's biggest fan because of it and his propensity to make last man back turnovers because of his style of play and what i perceive as his 'hey look at me' style, but i am awfully glad he's on our team and is a true allstar d-man.

 

[RickP]

subban is among the top 10 overall defensemen in the league, as was weber in a different way. it was a great trade simply because subban is 4 years younger than weber and he probably fits lavy's untempo style desire. weber had a bad contract, subban had a bad contract (from dollar totals), i mean subban's cap hit this year is 11 million. it made us the only ones logically able to swap those contracts. personally i still worry about the trade because of the possible unknown recapture penalties if weber quits early, that's my only real concern over the trade and it will be until that is settled/dropped/whatever. from a player perspective the trade was fine for us.

i too find it disturbing that mostly montreal fans try to constantly statistically prove subban is the greatest d-man in the league (partly to discredit their own gm and coach who they hate), when we know josi is just as important overall to us as a team (for example, the constant use of 'defensive zone starts', when the advanced stat number they use (60%+) is really defensive zone starts plus neutral zone starts, in actuality, subban has had 25% defensive zone starts and 35% plus neutral zone starts. which 25% d-zone draw starts aren't really statistically much different than ekholm/josi/weber/irwin really have. subban has been very good lately, we don't need to exaggerate numbers to out trump the eye test. i try to not let the montreal hero worship affect me, but i admit it inevitably does, even though it shouldn't. i'm not subban's biggest fan because of it and his propensity to make last man back turnovers because of his style of play and what i perceive as his 'hey look at me' style, but i am awfully glad he's on our team and is a true allstar d-man.

Just a quick note about defensive starts, the 60% thing is the D-zone vs O-zone ratio, it excludes neutral zone starts. Most advanced stats sites (like NaturalStatTrick) use that ratio, they don't include neutral zone start in that ratio. No player in the league actually start 60% of their shifts in the D-zone if we include neutral zone starts.

Subban had 181 O-zone starts so far this season at 5 on 5, and he had 259 D-zone starts, so in total he was on the ice for 440 zone starts (excluding neutral zone). 259 out of 440= 58.8% d-zone/o-zone ratio. That's where the number comes from. We could look at it as 78 more D-zone starts than O-zone starts. That's quite significant.

If we compare with Josi, he was on the ice for 217 O-zone starts, and 227 D-zone starts, so he was on the ice for 10 more D-zone starts than O-zone starts.

If we take for example Brent Burns, he was on the ice for 295 O-zone faceoffs vs 161 D-zone faceoffs! 134 more faceoffs in the O-zone, that's huge. Those extra O-zone faceoffs probably help his production and stats (like +/-), but it's hard to tell how much exactly. It definately impacts on the Corsi and other shot-based metrics though.

 

[anofsti]

The only thing that bothers me about this and we have some fans who do the same. I have my own opinion about him, he drives me crazy and what not, but I've tried to be less vocal about the situation compared to 6 months to a year ago. I also do not like that if not every day, then at minimum every week on here, someone trying to shove "PK is the best thing to ever happen to hockey" down our throats on here. I think the fan craziness surrounding him actually is part of what makes me dislike him if that makes any sense. Kind of like the over the top Toronto, Edmonton, and Chicago fans have been.

He is though, at least in this decade. That personality, with the skills to back it up is crucial to introducing new people to the game, and does a lot for recruiting new players too.

Also, he tends to be at his best when he needs too. If the team leads or the game is close, he'll be pretty conservative (well, for him at least), but if the team needs offense he turns on the flash - and succeeds more than he fails. Just look at his possession stats when the game is close next to regular 5vs5.

 

[Mass]

He’s playing the best hockey for a defenseman on this team, and it’s not particularly close in my opinion. He makes couple of bad lowlight worth plays a season that get a lot of attention (who doesn’t) but his ability to consistently, seamlessly, get the puck out of the defensive zone is incredible to me.

I’m saying this as a “Josi is the best defenseman on this team” believer prior to the 16-17 season, that’s been proven wrong.

 

[Peanut]

His zone entries break ups are lidstrom lite some of the stuff that goes rather unnoticed.

 

[PredsV82]

The only "downside" of Subban getting named captain every year is that under this format with only 3 D Men from each division being chosen, it almost locks out any other Preds defenseman. Admittedly, Subban deserves the nod on merit this year as well, but if this format continues we probably won't see Josi or Ellis as All Stars any time soon.

 

[LaP]

It's about context though, look at the last night's game for legitimate criticism. He turned the puck over trying to pass through the crease instead of safely getting it out by playing it off the boards, that's incredibly frustrating for such a good player. I think his play over the rest of the game made up for it though.

A giveaway should still be a giveaway. Whatever you give the puck away after using the board or not it should still be a giveaway. It's very frustrating to see 3rd line or 3rd pairing guys giving the puck away after using the board while the middle of the ice was completely open and to see them not getting any giveaway in the stats because it's seen as strong hockey play. I mean it's not a **** strong hockey play he gave the puck away. You see those kind giveaway from the board a minimum of 10 times a game. Maybe 20-25% of those maximum result in a giveaway statistically speaking.

 

[Pred303]

all giveaways are not created equal. 'official' credited giveaways can be deceiving. there are giveaways, and then there are really bad giveaways. if you giveaway the puck as last man back in open ice that is almost always many times worse than giving the puck up in the offensive zone or someone 'holding the puck in' along the boards.

to me that is often the most frustrating thing about subban's official giveaways. many of them come as last man back because of his 'style' of using his body and reach to hold off the defender instead of speed. i would go as far to say that more of subban's official giveaways result directly in more goals than any of our other dmen's giveaways because of that. it's something many out of towners and fans don't seem to fathom why his giveaways tend to drive some crazier than other guys turning the puck over when making a bad pass that's intercepted in the neutral zone.

 

[Soundgarden]

A giveaway should still be a giveaway. Whatever you give the puck away after using the board or not it should still be a giveaway. It's very frustrating to see 3rd line or 3rd pairing guys giving the puck away after using the board while the middle of the ice was completely open and to see them not getting any giveaway in the stats because it's seen as strong hockey play. I mean it's not a **** strong hockey play he gave the puck away. You see those kind giveaway from the board a minimum of 10 times a game. Maybe 20-25% of those maximum result in a giveaway statistically speaking.

In that specific play he'd have been better off clearing the puck so the 2nd defender can hurry back while the King tags up, the Kings may have gained possession but it'd lower the odds of a scoring chance 2v1 over 1v1. I don't really care if it counts as a giveaway if it might prevent a goal.

 

[bdub24]

Any discussion of PK Subban that doesn't factor in the off ice aspect of what he brings to an organization is such an incomplete take on him, it's almost completely invalid.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

I've followed this guy dating back to his Montreal days. Back a few years ago when he was still with Montreal I hoped he would win the Cup back when the Habs were the only Canadian team in the playoffs.

I hope one day he finally gets to lift that ultimate prize.

 

[JLP]

Some people just aren't a big fan of big, bubbly personalities. Generally speaking they tend to get on my nerves and come off as fake most of the time, especially if it's constant.

That said I have no real issue with PK in that regard, and while he comes off as an attention seeker that is not a bad thing if you have lots of guys who don't care for the spotlight.

People tend to overlook this point. PK is a lightning rod for media and fan attention and he thrives on it and does a great job both on-ice and off-ice. This takes the spotlight and pressure off other players who are not so inclined. But a roster full of PKs could be a problem lol

 

[Price is Wright]

The only "downside" of Subban getting named captain every year is that under this format with only 3 D Men from each division being chosen, it almost locks out any other Preds defenseman. Admittedly, Subban deserves the nod on merit this year as well, but if this format continues we probably won't see Josi or Ellis as All Stars any time soon.

Honestly Josi and Subban should be making the all-star team pretty much every year. But with three on three and every team gets one guy, it isn't about who are the top stars but just here's a celebration of the NHL as a company.

 

[Drake744]

Honestly Josi and Subban should be making the all-star team pretty much every year. But with three on three and every team gets one guy, it isn't about who are the top stars but just here's a celebration of the NHL as a company.

Which, regardless of how unfair it may be to a guy like Josi, pretty much makes it a lock that Subban should..... and will..... be in it every year.