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OT: All purpose Music thread

jbeck5 said:
I think to make it big, you have to be young and good looking and/or have charisma.

I know plenty of talented people in their 30s... Some playing at Bluesfest for example...but as some random awkward 38 year old...good luck lol there's so many options that you have to really have that unique voice or sound combined with charisma or being a 10/10 in looks where someone thinks they can mold you into a star.

Gone is the "middle class" of music.

I guess someone like classified would be an example of a middle class musician...not filthy rich, but earns a good living from music...but he started 25 years ago or more.
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Your 3rd paragraph that I bolded was what I was talking about. You successfully picked up on it.
 
Stylizer1 said:
The music industry has shifted away from gate keepers to gate makers which is a good and bad thing. As gate keepers most of the music we were allowed to listen to was a fairly polished product. To make it outside of that business you had to be unique and make them notice. Back in the day most bands received pennies for royalty checks too. Unless you were a mega band album sales mostly went back to paying off the label the money they invested in you and then their cut. Bands would make their money off of shows. Today Streaming sites are controlled by the music industry but they don't control the other income streams they once did like merchandise/physical copies.

The internet gives an artist exposure and the rest is up to them.
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Ya, I was talking about that as well - see post #25.
 
Stylizer1 said:
You are describing pop music. Good music will always sell regardless of what they look like.
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I thought we were talking about pop music...as in what sells or tops the charts or makes people millions. Obviously it has to be popular music.

Also, looking at the charts, pop style music is more prevalent than any other.

Do you hear reggae topping the charts? Me neither.

Rock bands? Nope. Not consistently over the last 20 years.

Rap? Less and less of that too now. Gone are the days of regular people being able to name dozens of big current rappers.

So what does that leave us?

Wikipedia lists the top selling artists of the 2020s in no particular order: Taylor Swift, Adele, Morgan Wallen, Justin Bieber, Olivia Rodrigo, Harry styles, Bruno Mars, doja cat, the weeknd, Billie eillish, Dua Lipa, and Lil Nas x...

Mostly pop listed there. These people aren't the most talented singers this world has to offer...they bring things like looks and charisma and can be shaped into what sells.
 
jbeck5 said:
I thought we were talking about pop music...as in what sells or tops the charts or makes people millions. Obviously it has to be popular music.

Also, looking at the charts, pop style music is more prevalent than any other.

Do you hear reggae topping the charts? Me neither.

Rock bands? Nope. Not consistently over the last 20 years.

Rap? Less and less of that too now. Gone are the days of regular people being able to name dozens of big current rappers.

So what does that leave us?

Wikipedia lists the top selling artists of the 2020s in no particular order: Taylor Swift, Adele, Morgan Wallen, Justin Bieber, Olivia Rodrigo, Harry styles, Bruno Mars, doja cat, the weeknd, Billie eillish, Dua Lipa, and Lil Nas x...

Mostly pop listed there. These people aren't the most talented singers this world has to offer...they bring things like looks and charisma and can be shaped into what sells.
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Music charts were primarily based on radio play and record sales. Both have dramatically lessened over the last 10 years. The only music that tops the charts are the ones pushed to be there. Nothing is organic in the music industry. Back in the day before radio stations were all owned by conglomerates actual DJ's would break artists. I've never based my musical choice on how someone looks.

The reason the artists you listed were the top sellers is because of the marketing maching behind them. Like you said they are not the most talented.

There is new reggae music out there it just doesn't flow in your algorithm. Seen?
 
Big Muddy said:
Well, back decades ago, to make it big you needed you needed a record contract with a record label and their marketing team. But, I wasn’t really referring to that. I’m not really talking about becoming rich, but rather, just the number of opportunities to make a living playing music.

In the past, there were many clubs, dancehalls & other venues where live music was played. In the golden age of jazz, there numerous clubs and ballrooms that were packed, and they were numerous. Every other building was a club for entire sections (several blocks) where bands played live music. There isn’t that kind of thing any more.

Sure, there’s a lot of stuff on the internet, but there is no real substitute for a good teacher. Anyhow, anything I say will outside of most people’s viewpoints unless you are a relatively accomplished musician that has been playing for decades. I can see based on my posts so far, that nobody has the background to actually pick up on the more technical stuff I’m talking about. So, its probably time for me to depart this thread I suppose.
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Ok, ya, not as many live gigs these days to be sure, certainly not the golden era of jazz (what's that, the 30s?)

Making a living in music is certainly tough. You can teach, you can try to be a session musician, you can do weddings and church worship gigs, but clubs are not as common a source of income.

Agree about there being no substitute for a good teacher, I just mean the base level accessibility to educational content is far better. When I was a kid, if I wanted to learn a song, I might be able to find a tab of it on a bulletin board (pre-internet becoming mainstream...), a youtube lesson is far better than a sketchy tab. Not as good as being taught at Berkley, but hey, it's free and at your fingertips. There are actually some pretty good youtubers that do educational content of all styles and skill levels,
 
Big Muddy said:
Your 3rd paragraph that I bolded was what I was talking about. You successfully picked up on it.
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All of the music festivals we get in the city is full of middle class music and it's the big names that draw crowds. It may be that the genre you are looking for isn't as popular among the people in the scene. I'm sure 40 years ago there were a lot more Jazz clubs in general than today.

Peoples tastes have changed.

Much Music was important to exposing people to new music. College radio still does the same but who listens to the radio anymore?
 
Big Muddy said:
Your 3rd paragraph that I bolded was what I was talking about. You successfully picked up on it.
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not sure what the solution is
Stylizer1 said:
Music charts were primarily based on radio play and record sales. Both have dramatically lessened over the last 10 years. The only music that tops the charts are the ones pushed to be there. Nothing is organic in the music industry. Back in the day before radio stations were all owned by conglomerates actual DJ's would break artists. I've never based my musical choice on how someone looks.

The reason the artists you listed were the top sellers is because of the marketing maching behind them. Like you said they are not the most talented.

There is new reggae music out there it just doesn't flow in your algorithm. Seen?
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Well, it's also based on Spotify numbers too, for example, and that isn't pushed by anyone other than algorithms...so if you listen to punk rock, it will recommend and start playing popular punk rock that it thinks you'll like.

So more than ever, what's topping the charts isn't what the radio is pushing, but rather what people are listening to on their devices.

I've never either...but many have. Even talented artists like a Christina Aguilera, or Shania Twain has good looks to push. Or Rihanna or Beyonce. Etc. they're talented...but the reason they're the biggest is they're also "hot" and marketable.

I listen to reggae...I put my reggae playlist...and then it will predict songs that are similar to that list...but I haven't been impressed, which is why I asked if anyone knows any new popular reggae artists that isn't the list I provided above....because I've heard all their popular stuff and already have what I like on my reggae playlist.
 
Stylizer1 said:
All of the music festivals we get in the city is full of middle class music and it's the big names that draw crowds. It may be that the genre you are looking for isn't as popular among the people in the scene. I'm sure 40 years ago there were a lot more Jazz clubs in general than today.

Peoples tastes have changed.

Much Music was important to exposing people to new music. College radio still does the same but who listens to the radio anymore?
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But why don't they have music halls of current popular music?

Where do the locals that would perform at Bluesfest perform in Ottawa throughout the rest of the year to actually earn a living...say 50k a year...

Where are the gigs? During COVID, karaoke nights popped up everywhere...but not professional bands or singers...
 
jbeck5 said:
not sure what the solution is

Well, it's also based on Spotify numbers too, for example, and that isn't pushed by anyone other than algorithms...so if you listen to punk rock, it will recommend and start playing popular punk rock that it thinks you'll like.

So more than ever, what's topping the charts isn't what the radio is pushing, but rather what people are listening to on their devices.

I've never either...but many have. Even talented artists like a Christina Aguilera, or Shania Twain has good looks to push. Or Rihanna or Beyonce. Etc. they're talented...but the reason they're the biggest is they're also "hot" and marketable.

I listen to reggae...I put my reggae playlist...and then it will predict songs that are similar to that list...but I haven't been impressed, which is why I asked if anyone knows any new popular reggae artists that isn't the list I provided above....because I've heard all their popular stuff and already have what I like on my reggae playlist.
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The algorithms on spotify are manipulated

 
So apparently SZA broke Michael Jacksons record for consecutive weeks on the charts or something. Now I'm sure Jackson had some form of payola involved in upping those numbers but I think we can all agree there probably wasn't an artist known more worldwide than him at the height of Thriller. Would anyone consider SZA to be in the same stratosphere?

Manipulation.
 
Stylizer1 said:
You get it though, right?
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That there's manipulation in the world? Sure.

That everyone succumbs to it? Not as much.

If we succumbed to pressure equally, and are exposed to the same stuff, we would have the same exact taste....but we don't.

Manipulation may be a factor, but the biggest factor is simply people's taste.

You guys can all tell me Slipknot is great, and Spotify can play Slipknot everytime my playlist ends, and I'm still not going to start liking Slipknot...
 
We aren't talking about taste but the perception of what makes a top charting artist. You don't think the game isn't rigged and I am showing you it is.

That is all.
 
Stylizer1 said:
So apparently SZA broke Michael Jacksons record for consecutive weeks on the charts or something. Now I'm sure Jackson had some form of payola involved in upping those numbers but I think we can all agree there probably wasn't an artist known more worldwide than him at the height of Thriller. Would anyone consider SZA to be in the same stratosphere?

Manipulation.
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Well, there's also more people with access to music now.

It's possible MJ sold more or had more listens per capita.

If there's twice as many music listeners now, outselling someone from the past doesn't necessarily mean you were more popular.

In the 1980s when thriller came out, the world population was in the 4 billions...now it's 8.2 billion.

How many of the 4 billion had access to his music? How many of the 8 billion have access now?
 
Stylizer1 said:
We aren't talking about taste but the perception of what makes a top charting artist. You don't think the game isn't rigged and I am showing you it is.

That is all.
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I said the game is rigged. It's just not THAT rigged...and it's always been rigged.

I never disagreed with you...I just think the amount you think is due to rigging is higher than it is.

All the other factors come into play too...talent...looks...attitude... uniqueness...etc.

If you're THAT good, you don't stay underground for long.
 
jbeck5 said:
Well, there's also more people with access to music now.

It's possible MJ sold more or had more listens per capita.

If there's twice as many music listeners now, outselling someone from the past doesn't necessarily mean you were more popular.

In the 1980s when thriller came out, the world population was in the 4 billions...now it's 8.2 billion.

How many of the 4 billion had access to his music? How many of the 8 billion have access now?
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Yes but people don't buy albums anymore, they rent songs.

Streams are not sales.
 
Micklebot said:
Ok, ya, not as many live gigs these days to be sure, certainly not the golden era of jazz (what's that, the 30s?)

Making a living in music is certainly tough. You can teach, you can try to be a session musician, you can do weddings and church worship gigs, but clubs are not as common a source of income.

Agree about there being no substitute for a good teacher, I just mean the base level accessibility to educational content is far better. When I was a kid, if I wanted to learn a song, I might be able to find a tab of it on a bulletin board (pre-internet becoming mainstream...), a youtube lesson is far better than a sketchy tab. Not as good as being taught at Berkley, but hey, it's free and at your fingertips. There are actually some pretty good youtubers that do educational content of all styles and skill levels,
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Golden era of jazz was 1930s. I would have loved to been around then.

I’ve known some very talented musicians over the years. Some of these guys are the hired gun guitarists who very popular, well known bands pick up when they tour a certain region. They are at the top of their trade. They can play anything.

But, even a lot of very talented musicians don’t make a lot of money even if they play a fair amount of gigs. They usually teach to supplement their income, and/or have a rich (or better off) spouse LOL.

Any method of learning is good. I use internet videos myself. But, then again, I use a wide variety of methods. Just as long as I’m learning, that’s the main objective. How you do it is less important than just doing it and you are learning & improving regardless of method.

But, if you have a good instructor, there are certain advantages which I've discovered over the 60 years or so that I’ve been playing. They can see you playing and correct mistakes i.e., move your 3rd finger from the 7th fret of the B string to the 7th fret of the G string. Or, if you play this variation of the chord instead, you can just lift your finger off the F on the first string to get an open E note of the 1st string which is the next note in the melody. They can tell you that this section has a ii chord followed by a V chord, but the artist has done a tri-tone substitution of the F dominant 7 to a Bb7. You can save some time when an instructor knows their stuff and explains these kinds of things to you.

I find the best YouTube videos are the ones that also have a tab or the sheet music besides watching them play. You can’t always tell if a specific note is actually being played because fingers that are needed for that chord can block the actual notes being played, so you just can’t tell (in essence, you can’t see all the notes being played). That’s where the tab comes in handy, or the sheet music, but not all videos have that. Tab is good, and actual traditional music notation (sheet music) is the also very good (sometimes, or often better even) because it accurately spells out how long each note or rest is played. I use tab a lot, but often use the sheet music to give me the necessary rhythmic info. That’s why I mentioned the Real Book in a previous post.

One question I asked was if anybody plays chord-melody. A lot of these ideas or concepts I’ve mentioned in earlier posts come into effect if you play chord-melody. I enjoy the challenge of merging, engineering and combining the melody with the chords of a song. It presents the full picture of the song and yet (from a guitar perspective) it's just one person playing guitar that is generating the end result.
 
Stylizer1 said:
Yes but people don't buy albums anymore, they rent songs.

Streams are not sales.
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Well they track everything now...so you compare by listens or whatever

It's why it's best to compare artists within a generation and not artists from different generations...

And I think the same way with sports...

Also, music is so subjective. Is an artist actually better or more talented if they sell more, or does it just mean they're more popular?

Are the Leafs the best because they make the most money? No...so why do people think like that for music?

Some country singer may sell millions while Luke Boyd only makes thousands...doesn't stop me from thinking Luke Boyd is good and listening to his shit.
 
Stylizer1 said:
So apparently SZA broke Michael Jacksons record for consecutive weeks on the charts or something. Now I'm sure Jackson had some form of payola involved in upping those numbers but I think we can all agree there probably wasn't an artist known more worldwide than him at the height of Thriller. Would anyone consider SZA to be in the same stratosphere?

Manipulation.
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Speaking of Michael Jackson and Thriller, Quincy Jones had a lot to do with that album. There’s often some very talented behind the scenes people at work that take average music and musicians to the next level.

You don’t have to be a good musician to be a popular musician or financially successful artist. Often, the most successful music is music that is most accessible. And accessible often means simple i.e., not involving a lot of technical skill/musicianship or knowledge.
 
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Listened and watched a lot of material on Bob Dylan recently.

Last concert was Deep Purple and Yes in Montreal last August... I seldom go to concerts now and had a chance to go to this one.
I was a fan of Yes back in the day.. they were very so/so . I was not a huge Deep Purple fan but they excellent.

I like a lot of music out of NA or Britain including rock, blues, country, metal, folk, punk, R&B... my favorite genre is Blues. I am not a fan at all, will avoid Rap or Hip hop or electronic.
 
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Stylizer1 said:
The music industry has shifted away from gate keepers to gate makers which is a good and bad thing. As gate keepers most of the music we were allowed to listen to was a fairly polished product. To make it outside of that business you had to be unique and make them notice. Back in the day most bands received pennies for royalty checks too. Unless you were a mega band album sales mostly went back to paying off the label the money they invested in you and then their cut. Bands would make their money off of shows. Today Streaming sites are controlled by the music industry but they don't control the other income streams they once did like merchandise/physical copies.

The internet gives an artist exposure and the rest is up to them.
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Ya, back a few decades ago, you needed a record contract, and the label & other parties involved made a lot of the money. However, many successful bands after they got popular and learned through mistakes got better contracts.

Marketing has always been instrumental in making it big in the music business.

I’m not entirely sure about the points you are trying to make, but musical talent often doesn’t correlate very well to success. If you read the other posts I’ve made, you’ll see more details about what I am talking about. However, you may have made that point yourself in other posts. I haven’t gone through all the posts yet.
 
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