All-purpose Kessel thread (continued)

[Stephen]

Sometimes it's just right to move on from a player, and delaying the inevitable is just a waste of time.

 

[Stephen]

I'm okay with trading Kessel. I'm not okay with trading him for the sake of trading him. They need to get a real good blue chip asset back. If not, don't trade him. That's my opinion.

I agree, we need a great return, and I'd like a solid three for one package of futures in return or just one blue chip return a la Nieuwendyk for Iginla. But at the same time, in any Kessel deal, you have to consider the cap freedom moving on from him will give you. Especially if there's a cap crunch.

 

[Bomber0104]

I'm okay with trading Kessel. I'm not okay with trading him for the sake of trading him. They need to get a real good blue chip asset back. If not, don't trade him. That's my opinion.

Like it or not there has to be some sort of timeline on moving Kessel. If **** continues to hit the fan next season and he's still here, you can't continue to sit on your hands.

Obviously there has to be a good return but ultimately it's not up to you, I, or the Leafs to decide what another team will offer up. The market will decide that.

I'd realistically expect roster player, a high end prospect, and a draft pick.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Like it or not there has to be some sort of timeline on moving Kessel. If **** continues to hit the fan next season and he's still here, you can't continue to sit on your hands.

Obviously there has to be a good return but ultimately it's not up to you, I, or the Leafs to decide what another team will offer up. The market will decide that.

I'd realistically expect roster player, a high end prospect, and a draft pick.

and probably a cap dump as well.

 

[Bomber0104]

and probably a cap dump as well.

Yeah that's what I was thinking when I included a roster player as part of the return. Always a welcome addition especially if it means a juicier pick and prospect as part of the package.

 

[silentbob37*]

The benefit could be getting a better player in return. Which is a very realistic outcome if they don't settle for the best offer this summer

Or they could miss out on the best off they are going to get for him.

Your benefit is a 50/50 shot at being a negative.

 

[4thline]

Or they could miss out on the best off they are going to get for him.

Your benefit is a 50/50 shot at being a negative.

What is the absolute worst offer you would take for Kessel this summer?

 

[achtungbaby]

If they act desperate, they will be taken advantage of.

And GM's set the price on their players ALL THE TIME. I've heard plenty of times GM's didn't get what they wanted so their was no deal. Hear it every TDL. So your analogy doesn't apply, Bob. Because they don't HAVE to.

You're taking the standard trade deadline day cliches as evidence of something? I'll give you that it's true sometimes, but it's usually bull plop.

 

[Muston Atthews]

What is the absolute worst offer you would take for Kessel this summer?

I'd assume he'd give Kessel away for free. Or a cap dump

 

[4thline]

I'd assume he'd give Kessel away for free. Or a cap dump

That's pretty much what I figured.

Being 22 I wasn't around when Sittler and Murphy were run out of town, and I realize that Kessel and Phaneuf aren't them, but could any of the older folks compare the situations in terms of the relative relationships between those players and each of the fans, media and coaching/ management?

The contracts/ salary cap situation complicates and worsens the situation, but I can't understand how an organization/ city can so repetitively alienate its stars and run them out of town.

History has shown that getting rid of elite players during down years in their prime almost always bites you in the ass, why keep doing it?

Why not recognize that leverage is low and weather the storm.

Any insight?

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Based on the last 2 games, I am liking how Dion is playing out the string more than Phil is. These last 17 games are going to be a test of one's professionalism and pride. These games will matter IMO of who we keep. If I am a betting man, one of Dion or Phil will be traded this summer. How they play the string out could have a bearing on which player is deemed more expendable.

 

[Stephen]

Based on the last 2 games, I am liking how Dion is playing out the string more than Phil is. These last 17 games are going to be a test of one's professionalism and pride. These games will matter IMO of who we keep. If I am a betting man, one of Dion or Phil will be traded this summer. How they play the string out could have a bearing on which player is deemed more expendable.

Dion looks a little more energized than normal. I guess the layoff was good for him, though you do have to wonder why he doesn't prepare himself to play those hard minutes if he knows that's his job profile.

Phil just continues to be the wrong stuff.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Dion looks a little more energized than normal. I guess the layoff was good for him, though you do have to wonder why he doesn't prepare himself to play those hard minutes if he knows that's his job profile.

Phil just continues to be the wrong stuff.

Ron Wilson when asked point blank on TSN trade deadline day, who would he rather keep on his team if one of Dion or Phil was traded, he answered Dion. For reasons we have all heard, he cares, he shows up more, and he is not as bad a leader as people make him out to be. Is he Clark or Sundin, no. But he's the best of what we got right now.

 

[4thline]

Ron Wilson when asked point blank on TSN trade deadline day, who would he rather keep on his team if one of Dion or Phil was traded, he answered Dion. For reasons we have all heard, he cares, he shows up more, and he is not as bad a leader as people make him out to be. Is he Clark or Sundin, no. But he's the best of what we got right now.

Taking account likely returns and the difference in roles they can play in insulating a rebuild I'd say Dion is definitely the guy to keep.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Taking account likely returns and the difference in roles they can play in insulating a rebuild I'd say Dion is definitely the guy to keep.

I would not argue this. Phil is a talent, he can produce. Though since Carlyle has left not so much. But he has so many flaws that are hard to ignore. Dion has shown me something the past 2 games. He could have folded the tent and coasted the rest of the year, but instead he has chosen to play rather hard. That does count for something.

 

[RoyalGremlin]

Kessel may be a top 10 NHL player statistically but there's a bunch more that I'd take over him off the top of my head.
Crosby
Ovi
Malkin
Stamkos
Toews
Kane
Kopitar
...

I was wrong.

Edit:doughty, weber.

 

[RoyalGremlin]

Taking account likely returns and the difference in roles they can play in insulating a rebuild I'd say Dion is definitely the guy to keep.

But if we keep him what do we do with the C? Media treats him bad enough as it is.

 

[4thline]

I would not argue this. Phil is a talent, he can produce. Though since Carlyle has left not so much. But he has so many flaws that are hard to ignore. Dion has shown me something the past 2 games. He could have folded the tent and coasted the rest of the year, but instead he has chosen to play rather hard. That does count for something.

Exactly, I've given my reasoning in the Dion thread but that's another discussion.

As for Phil, i've said here that I'd rather keep him and hope something lights a fire under his ass than give him away for nothing, but I hope someone ponies up. He's an elite at what he does, and from what I've seen I think I'd like him as a person, but I just do not like the way he plays hockey. He has the speed and hands to be a takeaway machine without having to throw one more body check than he does now, but he just... doesn't.

That being said if the coach can finally break him, watch out. I was hoping the coach-killer thing might do it but apparently not.

 

[4thline]

But if we keep him what do we do with the C? Media treats him bad enough as it is.

Stick with him. Let him wear it until Rielly's ready, and have an orderly transition Both media and fan's should adjust expectations according to a rebuild, and I think he can salvage things here given the situation. If we were looking to be competitive next year? no, but we're not.

 

[HOCKEYGOON]

The UFA market looks pretty dry in terms of top level talent.

Could be good for offers on Kessel, Phaneuf, Bozie, Lupul, etc.

 

[Tak7]

What is the absolute worst offer you would take for Kessel this summer?

A high 1st round pick.

Anything less than that, and I think you wait and see what you can get for him moving forward.

It's been said a few times now, and Pierre LeBrun echoed it again today, that lots of teams view Dion (with retained salary) as a really good asset and that the Leafs won't have any problems moving him.

Assuming you can get Dion go, and scorch the Earth a bit with the roster, then there's really no urgency in moving Phil. He's still going to put up points here, and the team is still going to be bad enough to secure a high draft pick.

A Phil Kessel trade is your meal ticket to a successful rebuild. The Leafs HAVE to get the deal right.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Kessel may be a top 10 NHL player statistically but there's a bunch more that I'd take over him off the top of my head.
Crosby
Ovi
Malkin
Stamkos
Toews
Kane
Kopitar
...

I was wrong.

Edit:doughty, weber.

LOL what? you forgot Seguin, Tavares, Getzlaf, Giroux, Price, Backstrom I could go on. Kessel is closer to top 30 than he is top 10. Still a superstar no doubt.

 

[Mashed Potatoes]

I think Jones would fit amazingly next to rielly. Instead of trading Kessel (which obviously doesn't work) how about:

NSH
Jones

Toronto
4# overall+?

NSH gets a potential 1# center which you almost only get from Draft and we build our blueline first. How much would the + be?

 

[Dirty Dan]

I think Jones would fit amazingly next to rielly. Instead of trading Kessel (which obviously doesn't work) how about:

NSH
Jones

Toronto
4# overall+?

NSH gets a potential 1# center which you almost only get from Draft and we build our blueline first. How much would the + be?

Would make sense if NSH was going into a rebuild but they won't trade jones thats key to their defensive depth

 

[Tyler Biggs*]

I am sick and tired of the Toronto media. They are the problem with this franchise, Lupul was right to call them a poor man's TMZ when it comes to this type of reporting. Are you really going to sit back and criticize Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf for the team's performance over the past 5 years?

The only possible knock against them is the contracts they accepted - and that is the fault of management, not the players. I say boycott the Toronto media, they are the reasons players don't want to play here. Play out of your mind establishing yourself one of the best pure goal-scorers in the league and you have your character called into question? What do you honestly want out of Phil, 50 goals a year? 60?

Should Dion be playing more minutes? 35-40 a night? Would that make you happy? A hockey team needs to be solid from top to bottom. When it's not, it won't perform but please don't blame it on the top tier players for not carrying the rest of the terrible roster.