Rumor: ALL PURPOSE JT MILLER THREAD PT2 - It's Been 84 Years....

Ruthervin

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Jul 30, 2022
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Seattle
Meh, I think Bratt > Miller in terms of value and Severson + 2nd for Garland is fine. I would do this and run away laughing actually.
I would definitely do Garland + 2nd if the Devils were down. I get what you mean about Bratt > Miller in terms of value, but do the Canucks need another smallish forward? We already have too many of these do we not? Having 1-2 small players is ok in my opinion, but size and physicality always becomes a much bigger factor come playoff time.

I'd do Garland + 2nd for Severson but would pass on Miller for Bratt.
 

Ruthervin

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Jul 30, 2022
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You could remove Miller and Canucks still say no.
Really? A guy like Coyle would help our PK tremendously and would be able to take on the tougher defensive match-ups. From a stats perspective, wasn't Coyle considered to be one of the best underrated defensive forwards in the league almost right up there with Zac Aston Reese, Nikhushkin, Eriksson-Ek, etc? A guy like Coyle could help free up Horvat for more offensive deployment. Also, as a self-proclaimed #1 fan of Chris Tanev, wouldn't you of all people appreciate a top 4 stay at home right sided defenseman that can move the puck? :-p. Carlo has a concussion history yes, but seems to be over it. He played 79 games last season.
 

Peen

Rejoicing in a Benning-free world
Oct 6, 2013
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Jesper Bratt turned 24 yesterday JT Miller is 29. Both are looking for long term contracts, who would you rather sign?

Kevin Fiala got a very good return, I don't think the "small winger market" applies as much to sub 25 year old play drivers.

If the Canucks traded JT Miller for Jesper Bratt straight up I would celebrate.
Garland, Buchnevic, Bjorkstrand, Arvidsson, Rakell

Can't remember anyone else off the top of my head. None of these guys went for 1sts or prime young pieces.

Edit: With Garland, I'm talking about what Shah has reported on what the Canucks were offered for Garland (essentially crap).

The only guy who's beaten the market is the guy who's scored 40 goals twice and paced at over 40 in the shortened bubble year. Even then, there's questions on whether the Senators paid too much given he can walk in two years.
 

MatthewMurdock

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Jul 25, 2022
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I would definitely do Garland + 2nd if the Devils were down. I get what you mean about Bratt > Miller in terms of value, but do the Canucks need another smallish forward? We already have too many of these do we not? Having 1-2 small players is ok in my opinion, but size and physicality always becomes a much bigger factor come playoff time.

I'd do Garland + 2nd for Severson but would pass on Miller for Bratt.
Bratt is a guy that you can staple to Pettersson for the next 10 years and see success. You assemble the best hockey team possible then worry about adding grit later as I do believe it's a bit more important than the advanced stats nerds think.

Tampa added guys like Goodraw, Coleman, Maroon etc as supplementary pieces not in their core.

Garland, Buchnevic, Bjorkstrand, Arvidsson, Rakell

Can't remember anyone else off the top of my head. None of these guys went for 1sts or prime young pieces.
Garland was traded for the 9th overall pick. Buchnevic fair. Bjorkstrand was traded by a team in a cap crunch with zero leverage he is also 27. Arvidsson was 28 coming of a 25 point season. Rakell was a penal UFA.
 
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Peen

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Bratt is a guy that you can staple to Pettersson for the next 10 years and see success. You assemble the best hockey team possible then worry about adding grit later as I do believe it's a bit more important than the advanced stats nerds think.

Tampa added guys like Goodraw, Coleman, Maroon etc as supplementary pieces not in their core.


Garland was traded for the 9th overall pick. Buchnevic fair. Bjorkstrand was traded by a team in a cap crunch with zero leverage he is also 27. Arvidsson was 28 coming of a 25 point season. Rakell was a penal UFA.
dude cmon he's the exception to the rule and we know why

1659391921424.png

no one has wanted to give us anything close to that for him in the last 8 months that they've been open to moving him
 

MatthewMurdock

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Jul 25, 2022
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dude cmon he's the exception to the rule and we know why

View attachment 574058
no one has wanted to give us anything close to that for him in the last 8 months that they've been open to moving him
Fair but again you're comparing 50 point Garland to 70 point Bratt, I also debunked pretty much every other comparison you had.

Bratt is closer to Fiala then he is to any of the other guys you mentioned.
 

Peen

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Oct 6, 2013
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Fair but again you're comparing 50 point Garland to 70 point Bratt, I also debunked pretty much every other comparison you had.

Bratt is closer to Fiala then he is to any of the other guys you mentioned.
Even if we were to go with that, you said Bratt's value > Miller's value. If Bratt is equivalent to Fiala, you think Miller's value is less than Faber and a 1st?
 

MatthewMurdock

Registered User
Jul 25, 2022
130
230
Even if we were to go with that, you said Bratt's value > Miller's value. If Bratt is equivalent to Fiala, you think Miller's value is less than Faber and a 1st?
I would say so, yes. Fiala is also two years older then Bratt which makes me say he's the more valuable piece.
 
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MarkusNaslund19

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Dec 28, 2005
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Garland, Buchnevic, Bjorkstrand, Arvidsson, Rakell

Can't remember anyone else off the top of my head. None of these guys went for 1sts or prime young pieces.

Edit: With Garland, I'm talking about what Shah has reported on what the Canucks were offered for Garland (essentially crap).

The only guy who's beaten the market is the guy who's scored 40 goals twice and paced at over 40 in the shortened bubble year. Even then, there's questions on whether the Senators paid too much given he can walk in two years.

If you haven't watched Bratt, don't try to fill in the blanks strictly with stats or 'he's a winger' devaluation comments.

Bratt is younger than Miller and isn't on the precipice of being UFA. If we could get Bratt straight up for Miller we would take it in a heartbeat. The Devils would have to be really stupid to do that unless they were positive on extending Miller, and even then Bratt seems like the kind of guy you keep unless he's demanding like 9+ and refuses to see reason. He's the kind of guy who tips the ice and creates no matter who he's with.
Not really. Other centers on the UFA market got signed without waiting for Kadri.

The reality is that JR/Allvin overplayed their hand with Miller, and now every club has made their big move and/or are capped-out.

Miller should've been traded at the deadline as a two playoff run rental to a contender.
You keep saying this and it's framed far too authoritatively. For one thing, I guarantee you would have led the chorus saying that about Sakic with Duchene, and secondly, we don't know what's been offered.

To be honest, process matters more than results in terms of building something long term. So personally, if we were low-balled at the deadline, even if the weird flat cap and seemingly new valuation for players (who thought Bjorkstrand and Patches would be basically free players this off season?) means we get less than we want, it was still the move to make.

But at the very least, wait until we make a move before you authoritatively state what happened behind closed doors.
 

Peen

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If you haven't watched Bratt, don't try to fill in the blanks strictly with stats or 'he's a winger' devaluation comments.

Bratt is younger than Miller and isn't on the precipice of being UFA. If we could get Bratt straight up for Miller we would take it in a heartbeat. The Devils would have to be really stupid to do that unless they were positive on extending Miller, and even then Bratt seems like the kind of guy you keep unless he's demanding like 9+ and refuses to see reason. He's the kind of guy who tips the ice and creates no matter who he's with.

You keep saying this and it's framed far too authoritatively. For one thing, I guarantee you would have led the chorus saying that about Sakic with Duchene, and secondly, we don't know what's been offered.

To be honest, process matters more than results in terms of building something long term. So personally, if we were low-balled at the deadline, even if the weird flat cap and seemingly new valuation for players (who thought Bjorkstrand and Patches would be basically free players this off season?) means we get less than we want, it was still the move to make.

But at the very least, wait until we make a move before you authoritatively state what happened behind closed doors.
Work on your reading comprehension before you respond with unintelligent assumptions
 

Ruthervin

Registered User
Jul 30, 2022
1,228
870
Seattle
If you haven't watched Bratt, don't try to fill in the blanks strictly with stats or 'he's a winger' devaluation comments.

Bratt is younger than Miller and isn't on the precipice of being UFA. If we could get Bratt straight up for Miller we would take it in a heartbeat. The Devils would have to be really stupid to do that unless they were positive on extending Miller, and even then Bratt seems like the kind of guy you keep unless he's demanding like 9+ and refuses to see reason. He's the kind of guy who tips the ice and creates no matter who he's with.

You keep saying this and it's framed far too authoritatively. For one thing, I guarantee you would have led the chorus saying that about Sakic with Duchene, and secondly, we don't know what's been offered.

To be honest, process matters more than results in terms of building something long term. So personally, if we were low-balled at the deadline, even if the weird flat cap and seemingly new valuation for players (who thought Bjorkstrand and Patches would be basically free players this off season?) means we get less than we want, it was still the move to make.

But at the very least, wait until we make a move before you authoritatively state what happened behind closed doors.

Agreed.

1) The Canucks were legitimately in the playoff race at the deadline and any Miller move at that time would have received NUCLEAR heat from both the players and fans.

2) People keep saying that we missed the boat as far as this summer goes and moving Miller, but trade deadline always fetches the highest returns for sellers.

The Canucks should do whatever they can do make the playoffs and beyond this coming season. If we are out of the race at the deadline, then we will get another chance to sell high on Miller. Period. Don't make moves for the sake of making moves, and never accept low ball offers. Alvin and Rutherford are playing the Miller situation smart.
 

SelltheTeamFrancesco

Registered User
Aug 11, 2015
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If you haven't watched Bratt, don't try to fill in the blanks strictly with stats or 'he's a winger' devaluation comments.

Bratt is younger than Miller and isn't on the precipice of being UFA. If we could get Bratt straight up for Miller we would take it in a heartbeat. The Devils would have to be really stupid to do that unless they were positive on extending Miller, and even then Bratt seems like the kind of guy you keep unless he's demanding like 9+ and refuses to see reason. He's the kind of guy who tips the ice and creates no matter who he's with.
The problem with Bratt is he is going to arbitration where he will get a proposed one-year deal and a two-year deal the team gets to pick because Bratt elected to go to arbitration. The team will likely choose the one-year deal so he doesn't go straight to UFA. If this happens he is going straight to UFA the next year after taking another one-year deal. So potentially if you trade Bratt for Miller you only have one more year of control (and no cost certainty which teams hate). This isn't like Fiala who wanted to sign a long-term deal but the team didn't. I think the Devils want a long-term deal also, the Devils and Bratt are 2.35 million apart in their arbitration filling (not a great sign). My point could be moot if he signs tomorrow and avoids arbitration but who knows. But all I am saying is that trading for Bratt like Miller has a lot of risks.
 
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MarkusNaslund19

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Dec 28, 2005
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The problem with Bratt is he is going to arbitration where he will get a proposed one-year deal and a two-year deal the team gets to pick because Bratt elected to go to arbitration. The team will likely choose the one-year deal so he doesn't go straight to UFA. If this happens he is going straight to UFA the next year after taking another one-year deal. So potentially if you trade Bratt for Miller you only have one more year of control (and no cost certainty which teams hate). This isn't like Fiala who wanted to sign a long-term deal but the team didn't. I think the Devils want a long-term deal also, the Devils and Bratt are 2.35 million apart in their arbitration filling (not a great sign). My point could be moot if he signs tomorrow and avoids arbitration but who knows. But all I am saying is that trading for Bratt like Miller has a lot of risks.
Agreed that there is risk there, and if someone behind the scenes knows Bratt's troublesome, or driven exclusively by money, then don't make that deal.

But just because he may feel ambivalent to staying in Jersey (which he would have to to take 2 one year deals as you suggest) doesn't necessarily mean that he couldn't find a home in Vancouver.

Our team is one of the more Swedish teams in the league and has quite a legacy for it. The Sedins are in upper management, Alvin is a Swede, etc. If you think a guy can be swayed by being happy and feeling comfortable, I think Bratt's a good enough player that it's a swing you take.

But I think it's moot. I'll be shocked if the Devs trade Bratt for less than a haul. Seriously, if we get him for Miller I'll be thrilled. Other pieces can be moved for an RD or a 1st rounder.
 

MarkusNaslund19

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Dec 28, 2005
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Agreed.

1) The Canucks were legitimately in the playoff race at the deadline and any Miller move at that time would have received NUCLEAR heat from both the players and fans.

2) People keep saying that we missed the boat as far as this summer goes and moving Miller, but trade deadline always fetches the highest returns for sellers.

The Canucks should do whatever they can do make the playoffs and beyond this coming season. If we are out of the race at the deadline, then we will get another chance to sell high on Miller. Period. Don't make moves for the sake of making moves, and never accept low ball offers. Alvin and Rutherford are playing the Miller situation smart.

I think the Canucks were legitimately in the playoff race insofar as you couldn't trade Miller unless the haul was knock your socks off good. If Lafraniere was on the table, or a Seth Jones haul, you do it.
But to dump him for an extra 2nd rounder's worth of value instead of seeing the year out and making a similar trade less a 2nd rounder or so in the summer, you make that trade.
A young team getting important experience of playing meaningful games, particularly coming off of what was clearly a really dysfunctional period in our history is worth a 2nd rounder.
 
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bossram

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Sep 25, 2013
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You keep saying this and it's framed far too authoritatively. For one thing, I guarantee you would have led the chorus saying that about Sakic with Duchene, and secondly, we don't know what's been offered.

To be honest, process matters more than results in terms of building something long term. So personally, if we were low-balled at the deadline, even if the weird flat cap and seemingly new valuation for players (who thought Bjorkstrand and Patches would be basically free players this off season?) means we get less than we want, it was still the move to make.

But at the very least, wait until we make a move before you authoritatively state what happened behind closed doors.
The Duchene deal is not analogous. Sakic was not in the same position Allvin is in now. Duchene was traded in 2017-18, but he was not on the last year of his contract going into that season. Miller is. So no, I wouldn't have said Sakic had to trade Duchene the previous season - because he didn't. He literally had more time.

I agree, process matters more. I haven't seen evidence of what "process" the new regime is going by. Whatever direction or plan or strategy there is, it's pretty hard to discern.

And I mean, I think we can be fairly confident the offers for Miller haven't gotten better since the deadline (which is clearly what management was hoping for), considering Miller is still on the team.
 
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