All purpose draft-gripe thread

[IDJOTBOY]

I think it was pretty clear it was just speculation.

But I don't see any real way to reconcile his actions.

He said he took Jared McCann because of "meat and potatoes" over the Russians even though the two most highly ranked Russians pre-draft are if anything moreso than McCann is in everything except nationality. That night the media and everyone made a pretty big deal over the quote and it's implications, but then the next day Benning takes a Russian out of left field with our next pick, who also happens to be the biggest player in the draft. It seems like too much to just call it a coincidence for me, although obviously I have nothing to support that other than speculation.

Well if we're speculating, I don't see how you can view it as anything other than a coincidence. As some other posters have said, the "meat and potatoes" quote may have not just been about size or nationality but how the player plays, or something, which I can get on board with. Additionally, I don't think he has some personal vendetta against Russian players considering he must have had some say in the Bruins picking Khokhlachev, but like you, I have nothing to support that other than speculation

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Well if we're speculating, I don't see how you can view it as anything other than a coincidence. As some other posters have said, the "meat and potatoes" quote may have not just been about size or nationality but how the player plays, or something, which I can get on board with. Additionally, I don't think he has some personal vendetta against Russian players considering he must have had some say in the Bruins picking Khokhlachev, but like you, I have nothing to support that other than speculation

If it's about how the player plays then that makes Benning a horrible judge of player talent given that Barbashev and Scherbak play a grittier two-way game than McCann.

Not sure which version I'd prefer to believe tbh.

 

[biturbo19]

Full exclusivity doesn't matter. He didn't need to say "all", or the question didn't have to include "all", for it to be construed as a xenophobic comment. Simply tying the passed over "Russians" (nationality) to an undesirable playstyle (not meat and potatoes) is enough. The connection should have never been made.





"Russians available" refers to "Russians available". In that range, this referenced Scherbak, Goldobin and Barbashev. All could have been readily justifiable at #24. But that's just a guess. Neither one of us truly know. But where you _choose_ to selectively limit the field by round selection, I prefer to include players that were ranked in that range and above for the better part of the year. Those players should have been in consideration for that pick.

Anyways, long story short, this is about disassociating that comment with a predilection to bigger players -- which was the focus of an earlier comment.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Overconfidence? Who is projecting on to whom now?

BC explains it well in how the question framework made the comment have xenophobic tinge but I also took it as more of a description of a playing style that could be categorized as a physical and hardworking kind of game.

With this style description and using it to compare the Russian players available to McCann, the only plausible option, in terms of the statement being correct, would have been Goldobin, as Barbashev and Scherbak play as hard aka "meat and potatoes", if not harder aka more "meat and potatoes" than McCann did or does.

IMO and in my viewings this season, McCann still plays closer to a finesse than brute or edgy game.

It's about the certainty with which the idea, "I would have considered Barbashev there ---> Benning must have been talking about him in that context as well", is projected.

And then from there, trying to spin that into some universal dislike of all "Russian players"; a notion that seemingly runs quite counter to what we know about Benning's draft preferences/record.

You look at who was drafted immediately following McCann...you've got a smallish Czech, two Russians who i certainly wouldn't refer to as "meat and potatoes" types, and the Canadian kid who is basically the antithesis of "meat and potatoes" Benning pick. A guy who Benning implied was specifically, "the guy we don't want". Does Benning now hate all Canadians too?

Those are the picks that make sense to apply Benning's answer to a loaded question to. The guys that actual NHL teams selected right after McCann. Not the guy that many on this board wanted and thought Benning should have drafted there.

It's entirely possible that this board (as a consensus) is right, and Barbashev would have been the better pick...but the overconfidence and assuredness in applying that same reasoning to Benning and his answer to a question, is the issue there. Clearly Benning did not think Barbashev was the superior prospect to McCann. Eight more teams following Benning's pick also did not take Barbashev over "their guy" for their own reasons. Why would a question about the McCann pick be answered with a response about a guy that would be picked 9 picks (a third of a round) later?

It just doesn't make sense. The "Benning hates Russians" narrative simply does not work, knowing what we do now. Yet the comment does apply pretty clearly to the guys picked immediately after McCann. And makes complete sense, in the context of a GM answering a question based on how the draft actually unfolded. Why the need to dig for something more there?

It just reeks of looking for an ulterior motive in Benning not picking "their guy" @ #24...rather than just accepting that maybe, just maybe...Benning simply had a different evaluation of Barbashev the hockey player, and did not have him valued as highly. Or that as an NHL GM at the draft, it's a lot more reasonable to talk about the draft within the framework of how the draft actually unfolded, rather than the framework of what some fans have as "draft list".

 

[Alan Jackson]

Where does the acquisition of Pedan fit into the "Benning hates Russians" narrative? Is that part of the conspiracy, too?

Some people are really looking for reasons to bash the current regime, and I don't quite understand why. The team has far exceeded everybody's expectations thus far - can't that be enough?

Let's ***** and moan when there's something to ***** and moan about.

 

[arsmaster*]

The biggest issue is that McCann is NOT a meat and potatoes player.

He's also not stupid. He was essentially traded for kesler. Of course he's going to try and project himself to this fanbase as a kesler like player.

McCann is not a gritty player. He's a two way player with a howitzer but he's not a mucker. And sorry I also don't consider him saying he likes cross checking kids in the face back on his lacrosse days as evidence. My eyes have shown me he's not what he's been portrayed to us as.

That's my gripe. Not that benning doesn't like Russians, that he took a player and tried to portray him as something he wasn't basically Stating the other guys are the opposite of meat and potatoes which to me is "vanilla".

The best "meat and potatoes" forward available was the Russian.

I hope McCann becomes a player for us, but I also hope people aren't expecting kesler level grit. It's not his game at all.

 

[Alan Jackson]

The best "meat and potatoes" forward available was the Russian.

It could be that Benning's definition of "meat and potatoes" is slightly different than yours.

 

[PRNuck]

Where does the acquisition of Pedan fit into the "Benning hates Russians" narrative? Is that part of the conspiracy, too?

Some people are really looking for reasons to bash the current regime, and I don't quite understand why. The team has far exceeded everybody's expectations thus far - can't that be enough?

Let's ***** and moan when there's something to ***** and moan about.

Doesn't fit into it, but it totally silenced the "Benning hates Lithuanians" crowd.

 

[opendoor]

It's about the certainty with which the idea, "I would have considered Barbashev there ---> Benning must have been talking about him in that context as well", is projected.

And then from there, trying to spin that into some universal dislike of all "Russian players"; a notion that seemingly runs quite counter to what we know about Benning's draft preferences/record.

You look at who was drafted immediately following McCann...you've got a smallish Czech, two Russians who i certainly wouldn't refer to as "meat and potatoes" types, and the Canadian kid who is basically the antithesis of "meat and potatoes" Benning pick. A guy who Benning implied was specifically, "the guy we don't want". Does Benning now hate all Canadians too?

Those are the picks that make sense to apply Benning's answer to a loaded question to. The guys that actual NHL teams selected right after McCann. Not the guy that many on this board wanted and thought Benning should have drafted there.

It's entirely possible that this board (as a consensus) is right, and Barbashev would have been the better pick...but the overconfidence and assuredness in applying that same reasoning to Benning and his answer to a question, is the issue there. Clearly Benning did not think Barbashev was the superior prospect to McCann. Eight more teams following Benning's pick also did not take Barbashev over "their guy" for their own reasons. Why would a question about the McCann pick be answered with a response about a guy that would be picked 9 picks (a third of a round) later?

It just doesn't make sense. The "Benning hates Russians" narrative simply does not work, knowing what we do now. Yet the comment does apply pretty clearly to the guys picked immediately after McCann. And makes complete sense, in the context of a GM answering a question based on how the draft actually unfolded. Why the need to dig for something more there?

It just reeks of looking for an ulterior motive in Benning not picking "their guy" @ #24...rather than just accepting that maybe, just maybe...Benning simply had a different evaluation of Barbashev the hockey player, and did not have him valued as highly. Or that as an NHL GM at the draft, it's a lot more reasonable to talk about the draft within the framework of how the draft actually unfolded, rather than the framework of what some fans have as "draft list".

I could be remembering incorrectly, but wasn't the whole meat and potatoes thing a response to a question about drafting the Russian players in particular?

 

[arsmaster*]

No the pedan trade just shows benning is willing to give away picks for minor leaguers. No difference than gillis moving a 4th for Dalpe I guess but at least Dalpe had games in the league and wasn't the #15 dman in he islanders organization.

 

[Jyrki21]

It would be interesting to compare the canucks' actual drafting over the last 10-15 years to what their record would have looked like if they had simply taken the B.P.A. according to the media's prospect rankings. I expect the latter would be a better group of players.

It's been done before, including most recently this summer on Canucks Army.

And yes, the Canucks would be far better off simply taking the next guy on the ranking list rather than thinking they're smarter than everyone else.

 

[biturbo19]

I could be remembering incorrectly, but wasn't the whole meat and potatoes thing a response to a question about drafting the Russian players in particular?

No. That's the thing. If Benning had stepped up to the mic and said straight up, unequivocally, "i don't draft Russian's, they don't have enough meat and potatoes", that would be a pretty open and shut case, and we'd know to cross all Russian players off our list of potential Canucks draft picks. But that isn't the case. We know that was the case with Gillis...he straight up did not draft or acquire Russians. But that's clearly not the case with Benning.

The comment was construed that way on here and in some of the media, with people reading more into a kind of clumsy foot in mouth answer to a loaded question, than was really there. Seemingly trying to come to grips with the fact that Barbashev was not a top-30 pick in the NHL draft and looking for an easy answer. And it blew up into this big hysteria about "omg our new GM is a big dumb xenophobe!!!"...and then the next day he drafted a Russian...yet somehow the misguided narrative still persists.

Nobody talks about how Benning didn't draft say, Ryan Macinnis, the biggest meatiest and potatoeyest player available @ #24. It's just a weird fixation on the fact that he didn't draft Barbashev there.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

No. That's the thing. If Benning had stepped up to the mic and said straight up, unequivocally, "i don't draft Russian's, they don't have enough meat and potatoes", that would be a pretty open and shut case,

Isn't that pretty much what he did?

https://twitter.com/botchford/status/482714006374088704

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Jason Botchford
‏@botchford
Benning: never considered a Russian "want to get this team to a meat and potato style"

 

[biturbo19]

Isn't that pretty much what he did?

https://twitter.com/botchford/status/482714006374088704

No. He simply stated that he never considered a Russian at pick #24.

That's not a statement that, "he never considered a Russian ever". That's a radically different statement, and not what was said.

Nuance and context is important.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

No. He simply stated that he never considered a Russian at pick #24.

That's not a statement that, "he never considered a Russian ever". That's a radically different statement, and not what was said.

Nuance and context is important.

Fair enough. That statement could definitely be interpreted in multiple ways, but it still means he's either prejudiced or terrible at identifying grit and two-way play in prospects.

 

[PRNuck]

Fair enough. That statement could definitely be interpreted in multiple ways, but it still means he's either prejudiced or terrible at identifying grit and two-way play in prospects.

Or he was new, bad at being interviewed in general, and said something stupid that I have a feeling he really really really regrets ever saying.

 

[banme*]

No. He simply stated that he never considered a Russian at pick #24.

That's not a statement that, "he never considered a Russian ever". That's a radically different statement, and not what was said.

Nuance and context is important.

This is the poster who thought context regarding Virtanen's "slow" start to the year meant comparing him to players in radically different situations. Don't bother.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

Or he was new, bad at being interviewed in general, and said something stupid that I have a feeling he really really really regrets ever saying.

I don't doubt he's bad at being interviewed or that he regrets making the statement. But do you really think it's more likely he somehow misspoke and said something he doesn't actually believe at all than that he misspoke and said what he actually thinks?

 

[biturbo19]

The biggest issue is that McCann is NOT a meat and potatoes player.

He's also not stupid. He was essentially traded for kesler. Of course he's going to try and project himself to this fanbase as a kesler like player.

McCann is not a gritty player. He's a two way player with a howitzer but he's not a mucker. And sorry I also don't consider him saying he likes cross checking kids in the face back on his lacrosse days as evidence. My eyes have shown me he's not what he's been portrayed to us as.

That's my gripe. Not that benning doesn't like Russians, that he took a player and tried to portray him as something he wasn't basically Stating the other guys are the opposite of meat and potatoes which to me is "vanilla".

The best "meat and potatoes" forward available was the Russian.

I hope McCann becomes a player for us, but I also hope people aren't expecting kesler level grit. It's not his game at all.

Anyone expecting Kesler levels of grit and physicality out of McCann is probably going to be pretty disappointed. But he's not exactly a powderpuff pushover either.

In any case, i'm not convinced that there's some grand insidious plot at work, with Benning trying to falsely portray McCann as something he is not just to justify the Kesler deal. Benning himself seems a lot less concerned with trying to "justify" the deal than most fans seem to be.

The whole "meat and potatoes" thing is just a vague hockey cliche. By it's nature, it's vague and malleable in meaning. Trying to search for one singular trait or collection of traits to tick off check boxes representing a vague hockey cliche is probably a fools errand.

In the sense Benning used it referring to McCann (and Virtanen)...it means that McCann plays what Benning considers a "meat and potatoes" game. So if you really want to create some check boxes for the term, start from there and work backwards. What does McCann have? Because the things that he does have...logically constitute Benning's idea of "meat and potatoes".

I think things like work-ethic, attitude toward the game, commitment to playing both ends of the rink are probably a good starting point in trying to understand what he's getting at with the term, along with pushback and grit and whatever other "intangibles" you want to throw in the hat. For me, i'd just best sum up my impression of what he's getting at by spitting out another cliche and saying, they play an "honest game". But your mileage may vary.

 

[Zarpan]

Fair enough. That statement could definitely be interpreted in multiple ways, but it still means he's either prejudiced or terrible at identifying grit and two-way play in prospects.

We actually don't even have the complete statement nor the context of it. The Russian part appears to be paraphrased by Botchford given the lack of quotation marks around it.

The meat and potatoes part was a direct quotation, but I can't jump to conclusions about the Russian part without a transcript of the conversation or at least an extended quote.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

This is the poster who thought context regarding Virtanen's "slow" start to the year meant comparing him to players in radically different situations. Don't bother.

This is now the second time you've insulted me in an unrelated thread, and worse, you can't even remember the discussion was about McCann and his chance at making the WJC, not Virtanen.

 

[biturbo19]

Fair enough. That statement could definitely be interpreted in multiple ways, but it still means he's either prejudiced or terrible at identifying grit and two-way play in prospects.

It was a fumbled response to a loaded question, no doubt. And the way it's presented there certainly leaves a lot more ambiguity than you'd like. But it's hardly the first time Botch has twisted and distorted the presentation of something to fit whatever narrative he's trying to sell on any given day.

As far as that meaning Benning is either prejudiced or terrible at identifying grit and two-way play...that's just not true either.

The McCann pick was clearly not about purely getting the meatiest and potatoeyest player available...there's an obvious "talent" or "skill" component to that pick that is glossed over. He didn't select someone like Ryan MacInnis or John Quenneville for example (and they're not Russian, also have oodles of meat and potatoes).

I don't have even the slightest problem with Benning suggesting that McCann plays a more "meat and potatoes" game than "The Russians" picked in that range (Goldobin and Scherbak).

And as far as Barbashev goes...there are any number of reasons he wasn't in consideration that don't have to lead automatically to Benning being prejudiced. Which could be as simple as Benning not thinking his "talent" was worthy of that pick over others, or that he felt there were some issues with Barbashev's "meat and potatoes" quotient (which is vague and open to interpretation in meaning to begin with, not strictly about "grit" or "two-way play" alone), despite what people on this forum think. You have to keep in mind, Benning is hardly the only GM who passed on Barbashev causing him to fall to the second round...were all of these other GMs being big xenophobic doofuses as well?

 

[Wilch]

You guys are over analyzing a quote from a terrible public speaker.

I have a feeling posters are hoping he's xenophobic because if he isn't, that means he didn't do his due diligence. The latter is much more terrifying.

 

[Vankiller Whale]

It was a fumbled response to a loaded question, no doubt. And the way it's presented there certainly leaves a lot more ambiguity than you'd like. But it's hardly the first time Botch has twisted and distorted the presentation of something to fit whatever narrative he's trying to sell on any given day.

As far as that meaning Benning is either prejudiced or terrible at identifying grit and two-way play...that's just not true either.

The McCann pick was clearly not about purely getting the meatiest and potatoeyest player available...there's an obvious "talent" or "skill" component to that pick that is glossed over. He didn't select someone like Ryan MacInnis or John Quenneville for example (and they're not Russian, also have oodles of meat and potatoes).

I don't have even the slightest problem with Benning suggesting that McCann plays a more "meat and potatoes" game than "The Russians" picked in that range (Goldobin and Scherbak).

Not sure why you're equating Scherbak and Goldobin, as Scherbak is much closer in playstyle to Barbashev. And if it were just Goldobin at least the comment would make sense. But when both the highest rated Russian pre-draft and the next Russian to be actually drafted play just as much if not more a meat and potatoes game as McCann, it makes no sense to say the reason we didn't go for a Russian was because we're trying to move towards a more meat and potatoes style of play.

And as far as Barbashev goes...there are any number of reasons he wasn't in consideration that don't have to lead automatically to Benning being prejudiced. Which could be as simple as Benning not thinking his "talent" was worthy of that pick over others, or that he felt there were some issues with Barbashev's "meat and potatoes" quotient (which is vague and open to interpretation in meaning to begin with, not strictly about "grit" or "two-way play" alone), despite what people on this forum think. You have to keep in mind, Benning is hardly the only GM who passed on Barbashev causing him to fall to the second round...were all of these other GMs being big xenophobic doofuses as well?

Well Barbashev is certainly making a lot of GMs that passed on him look like doofuses. And I'd love to hear a new interpretation of "meat and potatoes". Because right now it seems like you're not sure what it is, only that McCann has more of it. And that it's not just his Canadian birth certificate.

 

[Alan Jackson]

but it still means he's either prejudiced or terrible at identifying grit and two-way play in prospects.

No, it doesn't.

 

[Drop the Sopel]

It could be that Benning's definition of "meat and potatoes" is slightly different than yours.

Exactly what I was thinking. Fort me, meat and potatoes means a hardworking player with a two-way game - a guy that will throw himself in front of shots and sacrifice the body to win. That's meat and potatoes, and Jared McCann to a tee.

Just because he felt McCann was a better prospect than Barbashev and the other Russians doesn't mean he's anti-Russian, or didn't do his due diligence - all it means is he felt McCann was the best prospect on the board, so there was no need to consider a Russian. And based on where Barbashev went, let'sd not pretend he's the only one that felt that way - a third of the league passed on Barbashev after we took McCann - and a lot of those were strong drafting clubs to boot.

Jim Benning sounded thrilled McCann slid all the way down to 24. Time will tell where these guys go from here but to criticize this pick or the rationale behind it seems silly at this point. Jared McCann at 24 is not a pick you need to justify to anybody...