Confirmed with Link: All-Purpose Coyotes Arena Talk: [Update] Land Auction Cancelled, Meruelo waiving ownership rights.

[GhostofTommyBolin]

They were also at the arena in droves when the team was good, like the 2012 WCF team. There were plenty of white outs and fan support when the team was decent to good.

They were dead last in attendance in 2012 and 2nd to last in 2013.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

They were dead last in attendance in 2012 and 2nd to last in 2013.

New York Times, May 12, 2012: Coyotes Keep Enduring and Winning (Published 2012)

Summary (in case it's blocked):

"The Phoenix Coyotes rank last in attendance in the league."

"They have been operating in bankruptcy for three years. They are also hamstrung financially that they have trouble signing free agents."

"a team that plays in a less prestigious southern market, lacks in star power, holds an uncertain future and has never been to the conference finals, until now."

"Despite the Coyotes' league-low average attendance of 12,420, Phoenix is buzzing. Every playoff game has been sold out."

"when the Coyotes returned from winning game 4 against the Predators, there were 200 people with signs at the airport at midnight."

"Doan said that the level of enthusiasm for the team has increased drastically during the playoff run."

 

[Dead Coyote]

They were dead last in attendance in 2012 and 2nd to last in 2013.

I was clearly referring to the playoffs since that's been the only indicator that the team has been good after years of shit attendance.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I purchased two additional seats for the 2011/12 season and had them for the playoffs as well. We played the Preds on Mothers day and i could not get those tickets sold, not even for less than face value. I wound up having to give them away.

4.2M folks in the greater Phx area in those days.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

@Coyotedroppings

Just look at all those empty seats during the 2012 White Out!!!

'Muddy' Coyotes and their sale move on

 

[RemoAZ]

I think it is and has been, or I wouldn't have been saying so for 15 or so years now.

Say we get a team in the future. Would there be enough fans attending? The answer would be no, based on what I've learned on F40. The arena can't be in everyone's back yard, so we wouldn't have the fans that require a convenient location. The team won't have ever won a game, so we wouldn't have the "team has to win" fans. Ownership won't have had time to prove themselves worthy, so we wouldn't have the fans that won't attend, unless they like the owners. I'm most likely not recalling some of the other reasons to not attend, but the irony here is that all the above creates the fan who is concerned about the sustainability of the franchise and won't attend until their fears have been quelled.

Weird, reading the above is like deja vu all over again.

A new team would get that initial excitement attendance but after that wears off, yes they'd have to win just like the other 3 major sports in Arizona have to win to draw. That includes the freaking NFL. This team won very sparingly but more importantly, it NEVER put stable ownership and/or a consistent competitor on the ice to at least generate some fan loyalty. I say again, it has never and will never be about the fans or attendance. The team needs stable ownership that can actually afford the team. Best scenario would be a super rich person that hires a Shane Doan/Jerry Colangelo type to be the team president. A person that the political leaders and fans would unite behind. Of course, we've been waiting for that for almost 3 decades so...

 

[Knights2017]

I went to the first preseason game post Bankruptcy Filing and there were like 800 people in the stands at Jobing.com arena.. vs the Kings.

I also went to Game 1 of the 2009 regular season which was a fan support "White Out" to show we have fans who do care - i think it was a sellout.

Anyone blaming fans for the team being gone is unjustly angry and anything but what the problem actually was for some reason.

If a restaraunt closes because the food gives you diarrhea for 30 years regardless of who owns it, is it the restaurant patron's fault??

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

I went to the first preseason game post Bankruptcy Filing and there were like 800 people in the stands at Jobing.com arena.. vs the Kings.

I also went to Game 1 of the 2009 regular season which was a fan support "White Out" to show we have fans who do care - i think it was a sellout.

Anyone blaming fans for the team being gone is unjustly angry and anything but what the problem actually was for some reason.

If a restaraunt closes because the food gives you diarrhea for 30 years regardless of who owns it, is it the restaurant patron's fault??

A whole lot of excuses have to be made for a whole lot of people and a whole lot of happenings to get far enough down the line to attempt placing the blame on the fans.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

A new team would get that initial excitement attendance but after that wears off, yes they'd have to win just like the other 3 major sports in Arizona have to win to draw. That includes the freaking NFL. This team won very sparingly but more importantly, it NEVER put stable ownership and/or a consistent competitor on the ice to at least generate some fan loyalty. I say again, it has never and will never be about the fans or attendance. The team needs stable ownership that can actually afford the team. Best scenario would be a super rich person that hires a Shane Doan/Jerry Colangelo type to be the team president. A person that the political leaders and fans would unite behind. Of course, we've been waiting for that for almost 3 decades so...

Gotta have fans Remo, if those fans are pissed/unhappy for any reason, they're free to stop attending, but they need to understand they could lose their team. It's been obvious for decades now, that we didn't have enough fans, they chose to stay away, they chose no NHL over NHL.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I went to the first preseason game post Bankruptcy Filing and there were like 800 people in the stands at Jobing.com arena.. vs the Kings.

I also went to Game 1 of the 2009 regular season which was a fan support "White Out" to show we have fans who do care - i think it was a sellout.

Anyone blaming fans for the team being gone is unjustly angry and anything but what the problem actually was for some reason.

If a restaraunt closes because the food gives you diarrhea for 30 years regardless of who owns it, is it the restaurant patron's fault??

Thanks, I come here to read the most asinine analogies anywhere and am never disappointed! I am very sorry the Yotes gave you the trots, but that's got to be an anomaly.

I don't think anyone is blaming the fans, I'm certainly not. The facts are that if fans would have attended in sufficient numbers, the team would still be here, hell, they'd still be in Glendale, it's really that simple. Anyone contesting that is either having feelings of guilt, or just isn't too bright.

I was at both those games as well and the pre-season game is the better measure of fan interest. They were giving out tickets like candy at a parade for the welcome back white out vs Columbus. The attendance after the welcome back white out, says a lot more than a puffed up season opener.

A whole lot of excuses have to be made for a whole lot of people and a whole lot of happenings to get far enough down the line to attempt placing the blame on the fans.

Are you saying you have even more excuses as to why the fans opted out keeping the NHL here?

 

[Dead Coyote]

 

[The Feckless Puck]

You know, at first I was skeptical about whether or not to close F40. Now I'm convinced - there's nothing of value being discussed here and I can't see that changing until there is real news about a possible expansion team.

I mean, if the legacy of F40 is a bunch of us insulting each other and beating dead horses, what the hell is the point?

 

[RemoAZ]

Gotta have fans Remo, if those fans are pissed/unhappy for any reason, they're free to stop attending, but they need to understand they could lose their team. It's been obvious for decades now, that we didn't have enough fans, they chose to stay away, they chose no NHL over NHL.

And yet the only reason the team is gone is because the owner nuked his relationship with Glendale and had to play in a college arena. Attendance never got the team moved. It was the grifter that got his relocation sale $.

 

[RemoAZ]

You know, at first I was skeptical about whether or not to close F40. Now I'm convinced - there's nothing of value being discussed here and I can't see that changing until there is real news about a possible expansion team.

I mean, if the legacy of F40 is a bunch of us insulting each other and beating dead horses, what the hell is the point?

It's only if you take offense. I think we all understand that there's frustration coming out in every post that isn't personal. Most of us have been kicked in the nuts for so long, I doubt anyone is getting too fired up over a post. I will still come here to hope to see a scrap of news. It's been part of my daily routine for well over a decade and it's nice to see a few of still hanging on to that dim glimmer of hope.

 

[Knights2017]

You know, at first I was skeptical about whether or not to close F40. Now I'm convinced - there's nothing of value being discussed here and I can't see that changing until there is real news about a possible expansion team.

I mean, if the legacy of F40 is a bunch of us insulting each other and beating dead horses, what the hell is the point?

I agree at this point..

See you all in the BoH when rumors of a new Group appear in the future.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Which brick are you?

You know, at first I was skeptical about whether or not to close F40. Now I'm convinced - there's nothing of value being discussed here and I can't see that changing until there is real news about a possible expansion team.

I mean, if the legacy of F40 is a bunch of us insulting each other and beating dead horses, what the hell is the point?

Who's insulted and why?

 

[Coyotedroppings]

@Coyotedroppings

Just look at all those empty seats during the 2012 White Out!!!

'Muddy' Coyotes and their sale move on

Never have a contested the fact that valley fans will turn out for playoffs, it's the rest of the time that's the issue.

 

[Bonsai Tree]

I’m concerned that the NHL might want to ignore this market for 20 years. The baggage attached to this market won’t disappear for a generation

 

[Dead Coyote]

Which brick are you?

We're both brick walls buddy, that's the point. Nothing we say is going to convince you that the team would still have moved if it had fan support and that Glendale would have been fine with us, and that Meruelo/Bettman/Barroway would have been fine signing long term leases in Glendale. Nothing will convince you that Meruelo didn't give a shit about fan support and would have sold the team anyways. Nothing will convince you that the same is true of Barroway, Moyes and Ellman, Ice Arizona, etc.

I’m concerned that the NHL might want to ignore this market for 20 years. The baggage attached to this market won’t disappear for a generation

I don't think it'll be that long. I see probably 10 years being likely as it'll be a long enough time away that Utah will be established and most of the Coyotes saga will be forgotten. Could be shorter than that if the league wants to get more expansion teams before the next CBA (quite possible players are going to push to have their portion of expansion fees) but that would require a lot of luck.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

We're both brick walls buddy, that's the point. Nothing we say is going to convince you that the team would still have moved if it had fan support and that Glendale would have been fine with us, and that Meruelo/Bettman/Barroway would have been fine signing long term leases in Glendale. Nothing will convince you that Meruelo didn't give a shit about fan support and would have sold the team anyways. Nothing will convince you that the same is true of Barroway, Moyes and Ellman, Ice Arizona, etc.

Meh, with fan support we'd have never had Meruelo.

I can't discern (with certainty) what you think my opinion on Glendale is, but I believe it's incorrect. I mean, if attendance was better (much better) two of the three you mentioned would have been fine with Glendale imo. As I see it though, Glendale (when it was all said and done) was a mistake because folks showed they didn't care enough to make that arduous journey across the valley. Having said that, I do believe Glendale may have had a better chance had the perfect storm of 2004 lockout, loss of all-star game and 2008 economic collapse not happened.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I’m concerned that the NHL might want to ignore this market for 20 years. The baggage attached to this market won’t disappear for a generation

Folks around and close to the NHL are talking positively, but let's face it, it's no time to shit on the small handful of fans, like yourself that really did care and bothered to show up to support.

 

[RemoAZ]

Meh, with fan support we'd have never had Meruelo.

I can't discern (with certainty) what you think my opinion on Glendale is, but I believe it's incorrect. I mean, if attendance was better (much better) two of the three you mentioned would have been fine with Glendale imo. As I see it though, Glendale (when it was all said and done) was a mistake because folks showed they didn't care enough to make that arduous journey across the valley. Having said that, I do believe Glendale may have had a better chance had the perfect storm of 2004 lockout, loss of all-star game and 2008 economic collapse not happened.

I think they got exactly what they wanted. Every owner pushed the narrative that it couldn't work in Glendale without subsides so they had to have a new building. Marketing pretty much disappeared as did all the corporate partners. No effort was made to improve either. Then Meruelo took it one step further by trying to strong arm the city and got kicked out which was the beginning of the end. I'd bet he brags about his genius move to maximize ROI and screw us over behind closed doors.

 

[Arizonatah Coyetis]

Never have a contested the fact that valley fans will turn out for playoffs, it's the rest of the time that's the issue.

I call coyotedroppings.

When you said that you couldn't re-sell your extra two tickets for a Mother's Day playoff game against the Preds, what did you mean if it wasn't a jab at the Coyotes playoff attendance?

Were you just pointing out that no one was willing to sit next to you unless the tickets were free? Please explain it for all of us with poor comprehension.

FYI, I think that the game on Mother's Day 2012 was actually game 1 against the Kings.

We played the Preds on Mothers day and i could not get those tickets sold, not even for less than face value. I wound up having to give them away.

 

[Dead Coyote]

Meh, with fan support we'd have never had Meruelo.

I can't discern (with certainty) what you think my opinion on Glendale is, but I believe it's incorrect. I mean, if attendance was better (much better) two of the three you mentioned would have been fine with Glendale imo. As I see it though, Glendale (when it was all said and done) was a mistake because folks showed they didn't care enough to make that arduous journey across the valley. Having said that, I do believe Glendale may have had a better chance had the perfect storm of 2004 lockout, loss of all-star game and 2008 economic collapse not happened.

I believe your opinion has always been, much like you said here, that if we had sellouts and fan support/better attendance that we wouldn't have moved from Glendale, that Glendale would have been happy with us, and that all of our previous owners wouldn't have sold the team (or most of them) if we did have that support.

But no, I don't think that's true. I don't think selling out would have erased the debt we already had at that time, nor do I think it would have prevented Moyes and Ellman, IA, or Barroway or Meruelo from selling the team.

It might have prevented Gretzky from getting involved and it might have prevented our roulette of arenas if we were immediately successful at what is now Footprint but let's be real, our attendance was pretty decent for years (plenty of near max capacity at Footrpint and a few pretty high ones at Glendale) and we had really good pre season attendance and playoff attendance when the team was exciting for a few years, especially right after Winnipeg moving.

But ticket sales aren't the end all be all to a franchise's success. Neither is merch and events and shit, but those are just as important. So is business outreach. Businesses make up a huge portion of box seats and I don't think we had those much at all at any Arena. Same as how Winnipeg even now wasn't making money with full fan support because they didn't have business support buying boxes so fans were the ones doing that and since Covid fan support, even in Winnipeg, has been down. It was only this last year that it bounced back and we're still seeing it have an effect. The Jets for example went on a business campaign to get people in the boxes.

Arizona has supposedly been profitable for a few of it's years but if the team is profitable in Utah I can tell you right now it won't be because of fan support.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

I think they got exactly what they wanted. Every owner pushed the narrative that it couldn't work in Glendale without subsides so they had to have a new building. Marketing pretty much disappeared as did all the corporate partners. No effort was made to improve either. Then Meruelo took it one step further by trying to strong arm the city and got kicked out which was the beginning of the end. I'd bet he brags about his genius move to maximize ROI and screw us over behind closed doors.

We'll never know the intent of any of the groups, but I don't agree. I'm sure they all wanted to make money in the end, as team values rise. The prudent way to look at it (imo) is that given the obvious lack of fan interest, they weren't going to spend more now, to get less in the end.