Coach Discussion: All Purpose Coaching Thread Part III

[Adam da bomb]

While I think line decisions are important, I don't think they're as key to success as many here seem to think. Whether Maurice was "forced" to move Wheels to center or not is far less important than how he has the team playing as a whole. My personal guess is that Maurice took the opportunity to move Wheels to 2C partially as a way to split Wheeler and Scheifele, who weren't playing great together but are both leaders on the team who want to play together, without ruffling any feathers.

I know people have been calling to split up that duo for ages. But the timing of when to do that can be important as well, in terms of player morale. Doing it both when it must have become obvious to Scheif & Wheels that the line wasn't working, in addition to having an obvious need at 2C which appeals to Wheeler's "do anything for the team" attitude may go a long way towards keeping everyone happy and playing hard for the coach. A good manager knows when to use a carrot, and when to use a stick. Sometimes a bit of finesse is a good thing. You can't just flip around your lines constantly. You want to find the best time to do it, with the greatest chance of success.

Yep we just think of players as machines and it’s all about on ice production darn what it does in the locker room.

 

[surixon]

While I think line decisions are important, I don't think they're as key to success as many here seem to think. Whether Maurice was "forced" to move Wheels to center or not is far less important than how he has the team playing as a whole. My personal guess is that Maurice took the opportunity to move Wheels to 2C partially as a way to split Wheeler and Scheifele, who weren't playing great together but are both leaders on the team who want to play together, without ruffling any feathers.

I know people have been calling to split up that duo for ages. But the timing of when to do that can be important as well, in terms of player morale. Doing it both when it must have become obvious to Scheif & Wheels that the line wasn't working, in addition to having an obvious need at 2C which appeals to Wheeler's "do anything for the team" attitude may go a long way towards keeping everyone happy and playing hard for the coach. A good manager knows when to use a carrot, and when to use a stick. Sometimes a bit of finesse is a good thing. You can't just flip around your lines constantly. You want to find the best time to do it, with the greatest chance of success.

While this is likely true, Maurice doesn't just manage Scheifele and Wheeler. He manages 21 other players as well including a number of them them would also want to play in more advanced roles. At the end of the day it's his job to try to put the players in the best spots possible to optimize the teams on ice performance. Part of that is to work with the individual players and pitch and sell different configurations and rolls on the team.

I'm not going to give him too much credit for needing to wait until he is required to make a decision before he split them.

The increased performance and better balance among lines and ice time should be all the evidence you need to indicate that it should have happened sooner.

With how things are now Maurice isn't riding his top line into the ground and he has three solid lines he can use.

While the people aspect is important it is ultimately his job to manage it effectively and I fail to see how letting Scheife and Wheeler stay together until essentially forced is properly managing those relationships.

 

[Puckatron 3000]

While this is likely true, Maurice doesn't just manage Scheifele and Wheeler. He manages 21 other players as well including a number of them them would also want to play in more advanced roles.

I agree with this sentiment. But I don't think it applies to this particular debate on Scheifele and Wheeler. They're both always going to play in your top 6, on any team in the NHL. The only player who has moved into a more advanced top-6 role is Roslovic, which is a result of Little being injured. And that's what you'd expect with Roslo - a talented young player who pushes into the top 6 of a stacked forward talent team when the opportunity arises.

The increased performance and better balance among lines and ice time should be all the evidence you need to indicate that it should have happened sooner.

Had it happened sooner, we don't know how it would have worked out. That's my point. You almost certainly would have had a disgruntled Little, and maybe a pissed-off Wheeler and Scheifele. I think your argument ignores these factors. Wheeler may have felt like crap displacing his long-time team mate and friend as 2C as well.

You can argue it's Maurice's job to put players where they are most effective on paper. I'm arguing that managing player morale should factor in as well.

With how things are now Maurice isn't riding his top line into the ground and he has three solid lines he can use.

This I agree with 100%. I've always thought one of the most valid critiques of Maurice is his ice time distribution. I'm glad he's migrated towards a more balanced approach.

 

[surixon]

I agree with this sentiment. But I don't think it applies to this particular debate on Scheifele and Wheeler. They're both always going to play in your top 6, on any team in the NHL. The only player who has moved into a more advanced top-6 role is Roslovic, which is a result of Little being injured. And that's what you'd expect with Roslo - a talented young player who pushes into the top 6 of a stacked forward talent team when the opportunity arises.



Had it happened sooner, we don't know how it would have worked out. That's my point. You almost certainly would have had a disgruntled Little, and maybe a pissed-off Wheeler and Scheifele. I think your argument ignores these factors.

You can argue it's Maurice's job to put players where they are most effective on paper. I'm arguing that managing player morale should factor in as well.



This I agree with 100%. I've always thought one of the most valid critiques of Maurice is his ice time distribution. I'm glad he's migrated towards a more balanced approach.

You are right that he has to manage morale and I took it into account. My point was that it isn't just the veteran players morale that needs to be managed.

He needs to be able to balance the happiness of the players with icing the best team possible. I'm not saying he should have just moved Wheeler down the line up, I'm saying he should have been working (full cummunication) on How moving things around would be beneficial to the team. As a coach he is essentially a sales man and he could have sold a more balanced top 6 plan over the off-season. It shouldn't have been such a difficult sell based on how last year went.

Based on things were handled for the last year or so it seems likely Maurice just gave both Scheifele and Wheeler what they asked for. There are puts and takes in every relationship and Maurice's relationship with those two appeared one sided.

 

[Puckatron 3000]

As a coach he is essentially a sales man and he could have sold a more balanced top 6 plan over the off-season. It shouldn't have been such a difficult sell based on how last year went.

I'm not so sure about this. They still had a 100 point season, and lost in 6 to the eventual Stanley Cup winners. I bet a lot of players on the team think they did their job to get into the playoffs, and just lost to the best team in the league.

No doubt the Jets were worse statistically. But I'm not sure Maurice showing Wheeler a bunch of graphs telling him how bad the Jets are would have made the situation any better.

Regardless, we'll never know how things would have panned out had Maurice made changes earlier. Maybe you're right, maybe I am. But what Maurice is doing now seems to be working, and there's more going on with that than just a line-up shuffle IMO.

 

[surixon]

I'm not so sure about this. They still had a 100 point season, and lost in 6 to the eventual Stanley Cup winners. I bet a lot of players on the team think they did their job to get into the playoffs, and just lost to the best team in the league.

No doubt the Jets were worse statistically. But I'm not sure Maurice showing Wheeler a bunch of graphs telling him how bad the Jets are would have made the situation any better.

Regardless, we'll never know how things would have panned out had Maurice made changes earlier. Maybe you're right, maybe I am. But what Maurice is doing now seems to be working, and there's more going on with that than just a line-up shuffle IMO.

No doubt, it seems like the joy is back. Whether that is due to putting less pressure on themselves, the players being more accepting of their roles, and knowing the system more I am not sure but I like the effort and improved cohesiveness of the group. I'd still do some systematic stuff differently but I don't have that many complaints at the moment.

 

[Adam da bomb]

While this is likely true, Maurice doesn't just manage Scheifele and Wheeler. He manages 21 other players as well including a number of them them would also want to play in more advanced roles. At the end of the day it's his job to try to put the players in the best spots possible to optimize the teams on ice performance. Part of that is to work with the individual players and pitch and sell different configurations and rolls on the team.

I'm not going to give him too much credit for needing to wait until he is required to make a decision before he split them.

The increased performance and better balance among lines and ice time should be all the evidence you need to indicate that it should have happened sooner.

With how things are now Maurice isn't riding his top line into the ground and he has three solid lines he can use.

While the people aspect is important it is ultimately his job to manage it effectively and I fail to see how letting Scheife and Wheeler stay together until essentially forced is properly managing those relationships.

Yes but Schief and wheeler are the leaders. It’s important to keep the guys who have the most influence in the dressing room happy. If Laine became a diva since he is so important he could be disruptive and most likely has more influence than Perrault. Does that mean he is a more important human being? No. Is it important to keep your influencital guys happy? Yes.

 

[surixon]

Yes but Schief and wheeler are the leaders. It’s important to keep the guys who have the most influence in the dressing room happy. If Laine became a diva since he is so important he could be disruptive and most likely has more influence than Perrault. Does that mean he is a more important human being? No. Is it important to keep your influencital guys happy? Yes.

Your Influential guys should be more understanding of team needs and are willing to put the team first. If they are so insistent on getting everything they want then you have the wrong people in influential positions.

Look at Morrissey, one of the team leaders but only this year is getting top ice time. He also doesn't seem to be having much of an issue being played with a rookie, having his PK time clawed back or bouncing around between the first and second pp unit. It is likely a strategy to ensure that Maurice can maximize his minutes at 5 on 5. If Maurice is capable of doing that with one key leader I Morrissey then he should be able to do that with Blake and Mark.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Your Influential guys should be more understanding of team needs and are willing to put the team first. If they are so insistent on getting everything they want then you have the wrong people in influential positions.

Look at Morrissey, one of the team leaders but only this year is getting top ice time. He also doesn't seem to be having much of an issue being played with a rookie, having his PK time clawed back or bouncing around between the first and second pp unit. It is likely a strategy to ensure that Maurice can maximize his minutes at 5 on 5. If Maurice is capable of doing that with one key leader I Morrissey then he should be able to do that with Blake and Mark.

They never tried breaking Trouba and Mo up so they could have one strong D on each pairing.
Chariot Trouba
Kulikov buff
Mo Myers
And I think Mo would also be really upset and throwing his weight around. I’m sure no player minds losing pk minutes for pp minutes which he wasn’t given regularly last year.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

my god who else was going to play center at the time with experience? no coach would have put a young player at center when you have a player with experience such as wheeler. yes of course he had no choice!

My god, who else?? LOL.

Copp
Roslovic
Perreault
Lowry could have moved up, backfilled with a Moose C like Harkens

So, once again, plenty of choices, and the one he decided to go with was outside of the box, which he deserves full credit for. Nothing close to a forced move, as he had other options.

The best part of your take is that most chastised Maurice the first time he moved Wheeler to the center spot, as an example of his incompetence.

Now the revisionist view is moving Wheeler to C is and always was a no brainer, that every coach would have done in a heartbeat, while Maurice had to be forced into it.

This "he was forced into it" crap is so transparently out to lunch, but keep moving the goal line till it fits your narrative.

 

[cbcwpg]

Well I guess if I have 10 choices and 9 of them are bad and only 1 is good, it still means I had a lot of choices.

 

[Adam da bomb]

My god, who else?? LOL.

Copp
Roslovic
Perreault
Lowry could have moved up, backfilled with a Moose C like Harkens

So, once again, plenty of choices, and the one he decided to go with was outside of the box, which he deserves full credit for. Nothing close to a forced move, as he had other options.

The best part of your take is that most chastised Maurice the first time he moved Wheeler to the center spot, as an example of his incompetence.

Now the revisionist view is moving Wheeler to C is and always was a no brainer, that every coach would have done in a heartbeat, while Maurice had to be forced into it.

This "he was forced into it" crap is so transparently out to lunch, but keep moving the goal line till it fits your narrative.

Now he just needs to try moving Connor down and one of Ehlers Roslovic up. Better line with Ehlers, more balance with Roslovic.

 

[wasup]

Now he just needs to try moving Connor down and one of Ehlers Roslovic up. Better line with Ehlers, more balance with Roslovic.

Now he just needs to try moving Connor down and one of Ehlers Roslovic up. Better line with Ehlers, more balance with Roslovic.

Quit screwing with what's working . You don't need to fix it if it's working .

 

[Ducky10]

Well I guess if I have 10 choices and 9 of them are bad and only 1 is good, it still means I had a lot of choices.

I don’t think Copp or Roslo are bad choices, Perreault either for that matter.

I understand you’re having a hard time with this, but Maurice made the right move. He could have made others, he didn’t .

 

[rkp]

My god, who else?? LOL.

Copp
Roslovic
Perreault
Lowry could have moved up, backfilled with a Moose C like Harkens

So, once again, plenty of choices, and the one he decided to go with was outside of the box, which he deserves full credit for. Nothing close to a forced move, as he had other options.

The best part of your take is that most chastised Maurice the first time he moved Wheeler to the center spot, as an example of his incompetence.

Now the revisionist view is moving Wheeler to C is and always was a no brainer, that every coach would have done in a heartbeat, while Maurice had to be forced into it.

This "he was forced into it" crap is so transparently out to lunch, but keep moving the goal line till it fits your narrative.

there was and is no way he would have moved copp roslo or mp in the center role in little's injury...did he not sit out roslo a few games last season!!!

revisionist, that is rich....where was it said I chastised pomo for moving wheeler to the center position!!!!

 

[Guffman]

there was and is no way he would have moved copp roslo or mp in the center role in little's injury...did he not sit out roslo a few games last season!!!

revisionist, that is rich....where was it said I chastised pomo for moving wheeler to the center position!!!!

95% of the forum chastised Maurice for moving Wheeler to 2C. Most wanted Roslovic.

I should know...I was part of the 5% who was fine with trying out Wheeler there.

Sorry, but since most of you made a stink about Maurice’s move, and the move paid off, props have to be given to the coach.

 

[MrBoJangelz71]

there was and is no way he would have moved copp roslo or mp in the center role in little's injury...did he not sit out roslo a few games last season!!!

revisionist, that is rich....where was it said I chastised pomo for moving wheeler to the center position!!!!

There is no way he would move Copp in the center role in Little’s injury, minus the fact he did move Copp in the center role in Litte’s injury.

I said most chastised Maurice for the move, which may or may not have included you. I highly doubt you were applauding Maurice for the move but who’s to say other than you.

 

[Ducky10]

Mod note.
Critique posts, not posters.

Thread bans will follow for those that just won’t follow the rules.

 

[Hunter368]

I absolutely did not pick them to be a top 7 team in the NHL more then 25% into the season.......full credit to the players and the coaches for a great job especially considering the D core being gutted and most NHL man games missed if you include Buff. I'm extremely impressed by the team this year and coaching staff. Pmo made a good decision moving Wheeler to 2C, I hope he keeps him there regardless when Little returns. Put Little on the 4th line and this team is crazy 4 lines deep with good forwards on every line.

 

[PhilJets]

That's the key here

This team can stack 4 lines

Have a vezina caliber goalie

Defense was suspect. But
Pionk is rising to the challenge.
So jets have 2 pairs that can hold head above water.


This team is not as bad as people make it up to be. Jets only really lost a Trouba .
Buff still i considered injured, whixh all teams go through. So thry went from a top 3 team or the deepest team in the league to what should be a playoff team.

The magic wand IMO is the movement of the 2 leaders being split up.


Made the team much deeper
Made the minutes spread out
Made the rest of the team follow. Knowing its not about pleasing 2 people anymore.

Happy people does a lot more in a good working environment. You see it now in the body language. It wasn't there for a few months last year.

Though It should hVe been done last year.
Sure we dont know what could have happened. But this was the right move.

That is why Maurice is a good coach.

But a great coach can anticipate much earlier.....

Props to coach and players to the resurgence.
Hoping they (him) can adjust quickly when the next hurdle comes and it will.



I noticed Maurice teams plays way better when pressure is off.
Like already missed the playoff all of a sudden they can be dominant. Or when less expectation this year.
I wonder how Maurice prepares his team when expectation is that much greater?

One controbuting factor last year to what i call miss opportunity is the pressure on both Maurice and Wheeler. It ate them up (ad the cup wS withint the reach), to the point as leaders, the decision makings in terms of people management were not hitting the right buttons.

 

[LowLefty]

That's the key here

This team can stack 4 lines

Have a vezina caliber goalie

Defense was suspect. But
Pionk is rising to the challenge.
So jets have 2 pairs that can hold head above water.


This team is not as bad as people make it up to be. Jets only really lost a Trouba .
Buff still i considered injured, whixh all teams go through. So thry went from a top 3 team or the deepest team in the league to what should be a playoff team.

The magic wand IMO is the movement of the 2 leaders being split up.


Made the team much deeper
Made the minutes spread out
Made the rest of the team follow. Knowing its not about pleasing 2 people anymore.

Happy people does a lot more in a good working environment. You see it now in the body language. It wasn't there for a few months last year.

Though It should hVe been done last year.
Sure we dont know what could have happened. But this was the right move.

That is why Maurice is a good coach.

But a great coach can anticipate much earlier.....

Props to coach and players to the resurgence.
Hoping they (him) can adjust quickly when the next hurdle comes and it will.



I noticed Maurice teams plays way better when pressure is off.
Like already missed the playoff all of a sudden they can be dominant. Or when less expectation this year.
I wonder how Maurice prepares his team when expectation is that much greater?

One controbuting factor last year to what i call miss opportunity is the pressure on both Maurice and Wheeler. It ate them up (ad the cup wS withint the reach), to the point as leaders, the decision makings in terms of people management were not hitting the right buttons.

I like your post and would add a comment or two to your closing paragraph -
Last years team, regardless of the players and their potential, lacked the maturity this team is showing TY.
Personally, I wouldn't point at a player or coach as being the major impacting factor and I don't see it as a missed opportunity - I see it more as a team that needed to work through a tough time in order to learn from it:

Wheeler is a different player because he learned through the experience of leadership and the challenges that come with it.
Ehlers took time to reflect on his game and has made huge strides
Looks like Roz has also recognized that there is more to the game than showing up.
Laine is a new player - I'm sure something clicked during the off season and he decided to buy in.

With all the above taking place, the team as a whole was in a much better position to learn systems and stick to the plan - without the top players leading the charge, it's hard to drive a message and evolve.

I don't believe the issue LY was the plan - it was more to do with the learning curve - most playoff teams will go through a similar stage before they can take the next step in building a "Team".

 

[Deedog99]

No doubt, it seems like the joy is back. Whether that is due to putting less pressure on themselves, the players being more accepting of their roles, and knowing the system more I am not sure but I like the effort and improved cohesiveness of the group. I'd still do some systematic stuff differently but I don't have that many complaints at the moment.

No Buff around seems to be a big positive to the room as well

 

[KingBogo]

No Buff around seems to be a big positive to the room as well

This is an interesting comment. Not sure if it has any validity but there is the possibility of the removal of a dominant presence in Buff and a dialed back Wheeler as left a little more breathing space for the young core and they have embraced it.

 

[Eyeseeing]

I like your post and would add a comment or two to your closing paragraph -
Last years team, regardless of the players and their potential, lacked the maturity this team is showing TY.
Personally, I wouldn't point at a player or coach as being the major impacting factor and I don't see it as a missed opportunity - I see it more as a team that needed to work through a tough time in order to learn from it:

Wheeler is a different player because he learned through the experience of leadership and the challenges that come with it.
Ehlers took time to reflect on his game and has made huge strides
Looks like Roz has also recognized that there is more to the game than showing up.
Laine is a new player - I'm sure something clicked during the off season and he decided to buy in.

With all the above taking place, the team as a whole was in a much better position to learn systems and stick to the plan - without the top players leading the charge, it's hard to drive a message and evolve.

I don't believe the issue LY was the plan - it was more to do with the learning curve - most playoff teams will go through a similar stage before they can take the next step in building a "Team".

I think growth has come through the players and the coaches.
Many people said it would happen I didn’t think Maurice would adapt but he’s very willing to change and that’s a double win.

 

[Jets 31]

This is an interesting comment. Not sure if it has any validity but there is the possibility of the removal of a dominant presence in Buff and a dialed back Wheeler as left a little more breathing space for the young core and they have embraced it.

I have no idea what the Jets room is like and i don't really know Buff but i would think Buff is a joker and not too serious about anything . You could be right that without Buff in the room the young guys could feel free to do or say stuff without being put in their place by a joke from Buff .