All Encompassing Tortorella..ella..ella..eh..eh...and Glen Cigar Thread Part IV

[PlamsUnlimited]

Gaborik left his cloaking device here. Aka the coaching style. Seriously, just let then open up a little on offense. Get a LEGIT offensive system...

 

[3rd Guy High]

I can tell you that neither Gaborik, Richards nor Nash have been the big Torts retractors/sceptics in the room this year. There is one key player that is though, amongst others, and that is a big problem there. And it is not Ryan Callahan.

Don't know who it is, but if I had to guess it would be Lundqvist. I just remember him saying something in a post game earlier in the year that everyone passed over but rubbed me in the wrong way. Don't remember exactly what it was though. And he's got every right to be upset with torts so it makes sense. He's an elite goalie, yet theyre collapsing to block shots for him, which a lot of the time turn into deflections that end up in the back of our net.

Not to mention the offensive support. That goes without saying.

 

[Kreider Typical]

Don't know who it is, but if I had to guess it would be Lundqvist. I just remember him saying something in a post game earlier in the year that everyone passed over but rubbed me in the wrong way. Don't remember exactly what it was though. And he's got every right to be upset with torts so it makes sense. He's an elite goalie, yet theyre collapsing to block shots for him, which a lot of the time turn into deflections that end up in the back of our net.

Not to mention the offensive support. That goes without saying.

i could see lundqvist being an issue... always seems to act like he knows better than everybody else... said the 3 is the magic number thing, complained that we're not scoring goals, complains all the time about offense... but idk if the guys would blame him for that. i think he just translates the anger of the room with whatever the issue is.

guys that worked hard are gone. maybe guys thought if you do what torts says and follow the system good things will happen and you'll be rewarded with a spot on the team... then out of nowhere some of our hardest workers in dubi, anisimov, prust, and feds get sent packing even though they were doing what worked and we got where we needed to. we were first place and there was a lot of rumors about trades (when we started to fall off towards the end of the season)... then they actually got sent away even though they were clearly putting 100% effort in.

it almost seems like we have more talent on this team than we should with this system. we upgraded our bottom six in terms of player quality, but none of them consistently work at 100%. i liked newbury and haley here... both seemed to work their ***** off every shift(and they could handle that with their limited minutes) and had a team-first mentality... i know they bring little to nothing offensively and they're not the best at possession or size or anything, but sometimes you just need somebody to light a fire under the ***** of your skilled guys. haley and newbury gave 100% every shift. i'd rather either guy over pyatt.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

i could see lundqvist being an issue... always seems to act like he knows better than everybody else... said the 3 is the magic number thing, complained that we're not scoring goals, complains all the time about offense... but idk if the guys would blame him for that. i think he just translates the anger of the room with whatever the issue is.

guys that worked hard are gone. maybe guys thought if you do what torts says and follow the system good things will happen and you'll be rewarded with a spot on the team... then out of nowhere some of our hardest workers in dubi, anisimov, prust, and feds get sent packing even though they were doing what worked and we got where we needed to. we were first place and there was a lot of rumors about trades (when we started to fall off towards the end of the season)... then they actually got sent away even though they were clearly putting 100% effort in.

it almost seems like we have more talent on this team than we should with this system. we upgraded our bottom six in terms of player quality, but none of them consistently work at 100%. i liked newbury and haley here... both seemed to work their ***** off every shift(and they could handle that with their limited minutes) and had a team-first mentality... i know they bring little to nothing offensively and they're not the best at possession or size or anything, but sometimes you just need somebody to light a fire under the ***** of your skilled guys. haley and newbury gave 100% every shift. i'd rather either guy over pyatt.

Yep. Just look how guys reacted during the lockout when the Detroit exec (iirc) called players cattle. If the players feel in any way the coach, GM or other exec is doing the 'churn 'n burn' method with players, they'll tune out in a hurry.

I can't help but think of that post game where Torts basically told reporters to go into the locker room and 'ask the players the tough questions.' Even though the players played like garbage that game, having the coach that normally has their backs suddenly throwing the whole team under the bus like that was a shocker. It's hard to regain the trust in the room after that.

 

[Ail]

I can tell you that neither Gaborik, Richards nor Nash have been the big Torts retractors/sceptics in the room this year. There is one key player that is though, amongst others, and that is a big problem there. And it is not Ryan Callahan.

I think that was made obvious by the Avery tweet.

Although some people here still choose to deny that had any real connection to the team.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

I can tell you that neither Gaborik, Richards nor Nash have been the big Torts retractors/sceptics in the room this year. There is one key player that is though, amongst others, and that is a big problem there. And it is not Ryan Callahan.

Not this crap again

These are men who are paid quite well to play a game. Their job is to listen to the coach. If any player is *****ing about it and not buying in 100% then he should be thrown off the ****ing team for being an immature baby. I hate to see fans take the side of the spoiled rotten children in these situations. This kind of **** has made the NBA unwatchable, lets not bring this soft coddling attitude to the NHL now.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Not this crap again

These are men who are paid quite well to play a game. Their job is to listen to the coach. If any player is *****ing about it and not buying in 100% then he should be thrown off the ****ing team for being an immature baby. I hate to see fans take the side of the spoiled rotten children in these situations. This kind of **** has made the NBA unwatchable, lets not bring this soft coddling attitude to the NHL now.

No, their job is to win games. If the coach jumps off a cliff, should every player blindly follow out of pure obedience? Respect and trust for a coach is not automatic and not inherited, it has to be earned.

This season has been a trainwreck and the coaching staff has alot to do with it in several key areas. The next time I see Dan Girardi man the PP point fumbling it up, that's not Dan's fault. The next time I see Richards fumble it up on the point, that's not Brad's fault. That's on the idiots behind the bench who do things exactly the same way and expect different results. The definition of insanity.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

No, their job is to win games. If the coach jumps off a cliff, should every player blindly follow out of pure obedience? Respect and trust for a coach is not automatic and not inherited, it has to be earned.

This season has been a trainwreck and the coaching staff has alot to do with it in several key areas. The next time I see Dan Girardi man the PP point fumbling it up, that's not Dan's fault. The next time I see Richards fumble it up on the point, that's not Brad's fault. That's on the idiots behind the bench who do things exactly the same way and expect different results. The definition of insanity.

Wow, you're just wrong. Objectively and flat out wrong. That's not how sports at any level work. That's dysfunction by definition. You can't have every player making his own decisions about what he wants to do or doesn't want to do, when he wants to listen and when he doesn't want to listen. In that way madness lies. You don't have to like a coach as a player, but you damn sure have to listen to him and do as he says out there. I feel like I'm explaining team sports to a child right now. I really hope this is just your view and not shared by anyone else out there. Scary stuff.

I guess you loved the story about how Titus Young decided to line up wherever he felt like on the field and run whatever routes he wanted to. That's just a player who is doing what he thinks is right. He didn't feel like the coach earned his trust and respect so he didn't jump off the bridge with him. Sad to see no one has scooped up such a smart young man yet.

 

[Ail]

Wow, you're just wrong. Objectively and flat out wrong. That's not how sports at any level work. That's dysfunction by definition. You can't have every player making his own decisions about what he wants to do or doesn't want to do, when he wants to listen and when he doesn't want to listen. In that way madness lies. You don't have to like a coach as a player, but you damn sure have to listen to him and do as he says out there. I feel like I'm explaining team sports to a child right now. I really hope this is just your view and not shared by anyone else out there. Scary stuff.

I guess you loved the story about how Titus Young decided to line up wherever he felt like on the field and run whatever routes he wanted to. That's just a player who is doing what he thinks is right. He didn't feel like the coach earned his trust and respect so he didn't jump off the bridge with him. Sad to see no one has scooped up such a smart young man yet.

You must be unfamiliar with the phrases "losing the team" and "tuning out the coach." Most players will give every coach an opportunity and chance to lead a team, some get longer leashes than others. Nothing lasts forever. Losing the team or individuals happens in pro sports. Get over it.

 

[Chimpradamus]

Wow, you're just wrong. Objectively and flat out wrong. That's not how sports at any level work. That's dysfunction by definition. You can't have every player making his own decisions about what he wants to do or doesn't want to do, when he wants to listen and when he doesn't want to listen. In that way madness lies. You don't have to like a coach as a player, but you damn sure have to listen to him and do as he says out there. I feel like I'm explaining team sports to a child right now. I really hope this is just your view and not shared by anyone else out there. Scary stuff.

I guess you loved the story about how Titus Young decided to line up wherever he felt like on the field and run whatever routes he wanted to. That's just a player who is doing what he thinks is right. He didn't feel like the coach earned his trust and respect so he didn't jump off the bridge with him. Sad to see no one has scooped up such a smart young man yet.

Allurohile just gave you two definitions of known terms when a team quits on their coach. You call that childish? I call you narrowminded. You call that scary, then I have to ask you, have you ever heard of the Milgram experiment? What is your definition of authority and if someone has it, do you always obey? That is scary, people who are indoctrinated into not thinking for themselves and putting their responsibility on someone else.

No one is above the team, the coach included. The coach just has a role in it all, he's not the team and he's not a monarch chosen to rule until he dies, like you seem to imply. You also make it sound like some total chaos erupts where people arrive at practice whenever they want or decide to flip the puck up in the stands instead of trying to score a goal. Can we assume professional players are not drunken pirates when the coach doesn't look?

There's an extreme difference between justifiably quitting on a coach because he isn't getting the job done for various reasons and quitting because you don't like him on a personal level, which is childish indeed. You don't seem to see the distinction, hence you blow things out of proportion.

These players have tried to listen and obey Torts for several seasons, he's had the fingers in handpicking the players he wants for his useless defense factory hockey and what do we have to show for it? A mediocre bubble team that would sniff good draft picks if we didn't have that goalie.

On another note, you are just defining one role a coach can have. The dictatorship one, which supposedly is common in your sports culture. Let me tell you for a fact, there are other ways to coach a team. If all that matters is winning, who cares about sports doctrines?

Let me also tell you of the national coach for the Swedish handball team that was a power house during the 90s. You know his secret? He allowed the veteran players to take part of the strategy themselves. They were the ones who ultimately had to take care of business, so why should they not be involved in the discussion how to win the games and how to improve? During timeouts, he rarely said a word. Instead, it was up to his players to pep talk and discuss the situation at hand. And he never verbally ripped his players apart, because that's not how he would have wanted to be treated as a player himself.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

Allurohile just gave you two definitions of known terms when a team quits on their coach. You call that childish? I call you narrowminded to the point of the extreme. You call that scary, then I have to ask you, have you ever heard of the Milgram experiment? What is your definition of authority and if someone has it, do you always obey?

No one is above the team, the coach included. The coach just has a role in it all, he's not the team and he's not a monarch chosen to rule until he dies, like you seem to imply. You also make it sound like some total chaos erupts where people arrive at practice whenever they want or decide to flip the puck up in the stands instead of trying to score a goal. Can we assume professional players are not drunken pirates when the coach doesn't look?

There's an extreme difference between justifiably quitting on a coach because he isn't getting the job done for various reasons and quitting because you don't like him. You don't seem to see the distinction, hence you blow things out of proportion.

These players have tried to listen and obey Torts for several seasons, he's had the fingers in handpicking the players he wants for his useless defense factory hockey and what do we have to show for it? A mediocre bubble team that would sniff good draft picks if we didn't have that goalie.

On another note, you are just defining one role a coach can have. The dictatorship one, which supposedly is common in your sports culture. Let me tell you for a fact, there are other ways to coach a team. If all that matters is winning, who cares about sports doctrines?

Have you? Because you're sort of comparing taking orders from a hockey coach in how to play the game of hockey to intentionally physically harming another human being because a guy in a white coat tells you to at best or to taking orders from a Nazi telling you to go do Nazi things at worst. Both of which seem somewhat inappropriate in this circumstance.

 

[The Gloaming]

Lundqvist "complaining" about the offense isn't a problem in the locker room.

If Torts has a problem with Hank, he can go pack his bags and leave. Hank, unlike Tortorella, is actually important to the well-being of the team.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The matter of the fact is that there are players on EVERY roster that aren't very good. They're 4th line players for a reason.

The thing is, were not playing to our strengths and were not using our players as best we can. That is a coaching problem. We do have some very good players here.

Hags-Stepan-Callahan
Zucc-Richards-Nash
Clowe-Brassard-Dorsett
Asham-Boyle-Powe

McDonagh-Girardi
Staal-Stralman
Del Zotto-Moore

Lundqvist

Those are some very good hockey players, and a very solid core. We should not be struggling to beat a bunch of mercenaries in the caps.

Thats a "very good" lineup to you? Especially at forward?

This year, only Stepan and Nash could be considered "very good" in my eyes. And my definition of very good are players that fill roles successfully to a Stanley Cup caliber. Callahan is always good, but I dont think hes been overly impressive this season. Hagelin is all speed and little anything else. Zuccarello looks like a wizard against the dregs of the NHL, and is a non-factor against top-half teams. Richards? Do we even need to get into him, and the season hes having?

The bottom 6 has been a comically tragic revolving door all season. Guys like Brassard and Dorsett, members of the NHL's doormat for years, are supposed to save it? Clowe? Too bad hes not the old broken down version we've acquired, or I might be able to give a "very good" award to him.

Pyatt? Boyle? Asham? Powe? Lets put our hands together for them. These are the guys, often 33% of the forward roster, that literally serve little to no purpose on any given night. You're trying to say that 4th liners are, by definition, not very good? Maybe they wont go coast to coast and score a beautiful goal, but there are tons of 4th liners that know, accept, and execute their roles -- usually to provide hitting and energy. We've got none of that.

I've readily admitted there are systemic problems with this team. Namely their grotesque transition game in the neutral zone. But to push this false illusion that this roster is a cup contending team, and a coaching change is all thats standing in their way, is an absurd notion.

 

[Leetch2McDonagh27]

SYSTEMIC and COACHING issue. Clear, cut, and dry. TORTORELLA is the problem here. You guys want a Hockey Team that will actually play with even a sense of offensive creativity. Or at the VERY LEAST connect 3 passes in the offensive zone (like most teams) instead of grinding our own players to a pulp? Or perhaps score a Damn GOAL on our own POWER PLAY? Kind of like most average teams out there? Or how about score a goal OFF A REBOUND by going hard in front of the net? When was the last time you saw that from this team?

It is mindboggling and frustrating watching EVERY SINGLE OTHER PLAYOFF GAME/SERIES......and all of them play hard, fast, with a transition game and creativity off the rush as well as in the offensive zone. EVERY SINGLE OTHER PLAYOFF TEAM or GAME has these elements. Except for our boring *ss, grind it out, dump into the corner but never chase, chip it out by using the walls only, collapsing to the middle leaving the points wide open, zero offensive structure or creativity because we never practice offense, sorry ass of a PP, genius of a caveman style TORTS BRAND OF HOCKEY.

I love our team, I am a die-hard Ranger fan......which is why I am so frustrated watching this sh*tshow that TORTS has created. Freaking watching grass grow or paint dry is more entertaining to watch this trainwreck of a system that Torts has been teaching and preaching here for 5+ years.

Torts has to go. There is no other way. At this point, I'd take ANYONE over this idiot. If anyone is happy with this brand of hockey that Torts puts out there, esepcially with the personnel and talent this NY Ranger team has, well then........

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

SYSTEMIC and COACHING issue. Clear, cut, and dry. TORTORELLA is the problem here. You guys want a Hockey Team that will actually play with even a sense of offensive creativity. Or at the VERY LEAST connect 3 passes in the offensive zone (like most teams) instead of grinding our own players to a pulp? Or perhaps score a Damn GOAL on our own POWER PLAY? Kind of like most average teams out there? Or how about score a goal OFF A REBOUND by going hard in front of the net? When was the last time you saw that from this team?

It is mindboggling and frustrating watching EVERY SINGLE OTHER PLAYOFF GAME/SERIES......and all of them play hard, fast, with a transition game and creativity off the rush as well as in the offensive zone. EVERY SINGLE OTHER PLAYOFF TEAM or GAME has these elements. Except for our boring *ss, grind it out, dump into the corner but never chase, chip it out by using the walls only, collapsing to the middle leaving the points wide open, zero offensive structure or creativity because we never practice offense, sorry ass of a PP, genius of a caveman style TORTS BRAND OF HOCKEY.

I love our team, I am a die-hard Ranger fan......which is why I am so frustrated watching this sh*tshow that TORTS has created. Freaking watching grass grow or paint dry is more entertaining to watch this trainwreck of a system that Torts has been teaching and preaching here for 5+ years.

Torts has to go. There is no other way. At this point, I'd take ANYONE over this idiot. If anyone is happy with this brand of hockey that Torts puts out there, esepcially with the personnel and talent this NY Ranger team has, well then........

If you continue to severely overrate the talent this squad has, I could see how this could work you into a frenzy.

 

[Trxjw]

Of those players you named only Drury and Redden turned out badly in the long run. The rest played well or became trade assets.

You don't sign FA's to become trade assets. You sign them to help your team. Sather lucked out in being able to trade Kotalik and Gomez for useful pieces.

Of all those FA's listed, not a single one has played with the Rangers for the duration of the contract he signed. If that's not mismanagement, I don't know what is.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

We do have some very good players here.

Hags-Stepan-Callahan
Zucc-Richards-Nash
Clowe-Brassard-Dorsett
Asham-Boyle-Powe

It's not a great team on based purely on offense:

• Nash is the only legit top line player.

• Stepan needs to repeat this year's production and play before I put him in that category.

• Hagelin is not a top line player on a Cup contender.

• I love Callahan, but he's not a top 3 player either.

• Richards is on the downside of his career.

• Zuccarello is still an unknown entity who still has not played a full NHL season's worth of games.

• Brassard has shown flashes which is nice. But it also means he's inconsistent.

• I don't feel like I have a good grasp on what Dorsett is, but to pencil him in on the third line is presumptuous.

• Clowe has seen his production go down each of the last three seasons.

• The fourth line is devoid of offense.

So, no it's not a great team based on offense.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

You don't sign FA's to become trade assets. You sign them to help your team. Sather lucked out in being able to trade Kotalik and Gomez for useful pieces.

Of all those FA's listed, not a single one has played with the Rangers for the duration of the contract he signed. If that's not mismanagement, I don't know what is.

Great post. I don't give credit to the guy who dumps trash on my porch but then cleans it up. Don't dump the trash in the first place.

 

[NYR Viper]

You don't sign FA's to become trade assets. You sign them to help your team. Sather lucked out in being able to trade Kotalik and Gomez for useful pieces.

Of all those FA's listed, not a single one has played with the Rangers for the duration of the contract he signed. If that's not mismanagement, I don't know what is.

IMO, that shows good asset management, planned or not. They were able to get good assets for players they signed for nothing but money.

 

[Blueshirt Believer]

Thats a "very good" lineup to you? Especially at forward?

This year, only Stepan and Nash could be considered "very good" in my eyes. And my definition of very good are players that fill roles successfully to a Stanley Cup caliber. Callahan is always good, but I dont think hes been overly impressive this season. Hagelin is all speed and little anything else. Zuccarello looks like a wizard against the dregs of the NHL, and is a non-factor against top-half teams. Richards? Do we even need to get into him, and the season hes having?

The bottom 6 has been a comically tragic revolving door all season. Guys like Brassard and Dorsett, members of the NHL's doormat for years, are supposed to save it? Clowe? Too bad hes not the old broken down version we've acquired, or I might be able to give a "very good" award to him.

Pyatt? Boyle? Asham? Powe? Lets put our hands together for them. These are the guys, often 33% of the forward roster, that literally serve little to no purpose on any given night. You're trying to say that 4th liners are, by definition, not very good? Maybe they wont go coast to coast and score a beautiful goal, but there are tons of 4th liners that know, accept, and execute their roles -- usually to provide hitting and energy. We've got none of that.

I've readily admitted there are systemic problems with this team. Namely their grotesque transition game in the neutral zone. But to push this false illusion that this roster is a cup contending team, and a coaching change is all thats standing in their way, is an absurd notion.

Considering the players coming up through the system in the next couple seasons, our bottom six is going to change yet again. Guess what? We are getting smaller, not bigger(with the exception of Mcilrath). We are getting smaller but also faster and more skilled.

Are personnel is turning into a puck possession roster and Torts isn't going to be the guy to get the most out of that.

But lets speak of personnel currently. I only see one really true need on this team and thats a right handed PP triggerman. Ya they could maybe use a left winger, but Krieder could fill that role(with the right system). Richards may or may not get bought out, and then you may have to figure out a center position. But then again you already have Stepan, Brassard, (probably) Miller, and Lindberg. So, its not exactly completely desperate.

The team doesn't need a whole lot of tweaking imo. The roster is pretty much there, but the players aren't going to get a fair shake until we see a new coach. I mean we both agree that the transition is the albatross of the NYR. Its been a problem the entire tenure of Torts. Why? Cause he can't coach a transition game post 05 lockout. It was partly the reason why he was sacked in Tampa Bay. Fixing the transition alone would dramatically change this team. Thus, I want him gone.

I can't complain about the players until that happens, its not fair to anyone.

You can make an argument that perhaps this team isn't perfect to play in Torts system. I can see that. We aren't big enough up front. But the coach makes a system around the players he has not necessarily what he wants.

 

[truebluegoalie]

If you continue to severely overrate the talent this squad has, I could see how this could work you into a frenzy.

I think they are as good as a number of other teams in the league. I don't think they are in the same category as teams like Pittsburgh, Chicago, etc. But they are certainly better than some of the teams who had similar offensive numbers this year. Are they worse than the Islanders, Philly, or Tampa? (Stamkos obviously skews TB's stats) What about Dallas? The Rangers scored the same amount of goals as them this year? how about calgary who only scored 2 less goals? The Rangers scored more goals than SJ and only one less than Boston.

While I agree some people overate the squad I don't think they are that bad either. I think they were better before Gaborik was traded but that isn't worth getting into here. The point is that it is a decent team that should be scoring more goals than they did. You could even replace Dorsett with Kreider, wouldn't mind seeing Clowe-Brassard-Kreider. Although I think that would put one of them on their off wing.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

It's not a great team on based purely on offense:

• Nash is the only legit top line player.

• Stepan needs to repeat this year's production and play before I put him in that category.

• Hagelin is not a top line player on a Cup contender.

• I love Callahan, but he's not a top 3 player either.

• Richards is on the downside of his career.

• Zuccarello is still an unknown entity who still has not played a full NHL season's worth of games.

• Brassard has shown flashes which is nice. But it also means he's in consistent.

• I don't feel like I have a good grasp on what Dorsett is, but to pencil him in on the third line is presumptuous.

• Clowe has seen his production go down each of the last three seasons.

• The fourth line is devoid of offense.

So, no it's not a great team based on offense.

You said it much more concisely than I did. I fully understand why people are mad at Tortorella. But most of the complaints are that hes holding back this talented team that is just waiting to break out offensively with a few system tweaks. Its total fiction. They are lying to themselves.

Secondly, these same tired arguments sound awfully familiar to the ones that were wrong in 2009 at the end of Renney's tenure.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

I think they are as good as a number of other teams in the league. I don't think they are in the same category as teams like Pittsburgh, Chicago, etc. But they are certainly better than some of the teams who had similar offensive numbers this year. Are they worse than the Islanders, Philly, or Tampa? (Stamkos obviously skews TB's stats) What about Dallas? The Rangers scored the same amount of goals as them this year? how about calgary who only scored 2 less goals? The Rangers scored more goals than SJ and only one less than Boston.

While I agree some people overate the squad I don't think they are that bad either. I think they were better before Gaborik was traded but that isn't worth getting into here. The point is that it is a decent team that should be scoring more goals than they did. You could even replace Dorsett with Kreider, wouldn't mind seeing Clowe-Brassard-Kreider. Although I think that would put one of them on their off wing.

Are they worse than the Islanders, Philly and Tampa? Yes. Those teams have elite offensive players (Tavares, Giroux and Stamkos) to build around.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

I think they are as good as a number of other teams in the league. I don't think they are in the same category as teams like Pittsburgh, Chicago, etc. But they are certainly better than some of the teams who had similar offensive numbers this year. Are they worse than the Islanders, Philly, or Tampa? (Stamkos obviously skews TB's stats) What about Dallas? The Rangers scored the same amount of goals as them this year? how about calgary who only scored 2 less goals? The Rangers scored more goals than SJ and only one less than Boston.

While I agree some people overate the squad I don't think they are that bad either. I think they were better before Gaborik was traded but that isn't worth getting into here. The point is that it is a decent team that should be scoring more goals than they did. You could even replace Dorsett with Kreider, wouldn't mind seeing Clowe-Brassard-Kreider. Although I think that would put one of them on their off wing.

I think they are middle of the road.

And I think the other teams you listed (Islanders, Tampa, Philly, etc) have better and deeper top tier offensive talent than this team.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

You said it much more concisely than I did. I fully understand why people are mad at Tortorella. But most of the complaints are that hes holding back this talented team that is just waiting to break out offensively with a few system tweaks. Its total fiction. They are lying to themselves.

Secondly, these same tired arguments sound awfully familiar to the ones that were wrong in 2009 at the end of Renney's tenure.

I'm mad at Tortorella. And I'm conflicted. He's been here four full seasons, but I just don't know what getting rid of him does other than give Sather another shot.

And yes, the knocks on Torts now are eerily similar to what the knocks on Renney were.