Player Discussion Alex Semin Thread

[Midnight Judges]

He probably did?

If he made that demand of a franchise as historic as the Bruins, why wouldn't he do that here?

The point is GMGM did not necessarily tap out on Chara because he was being frugal.

It's a bit different if you're coming to a team that just had a massive rookie season from a generational talent.

 

[Calicaps]

He probably did?

If he made that demand of a franchise as historic as the Bruins, why wouldn't he do that here?

The point is GMGM did not necessarily tap out on Chara because he was being frugal.

Honestly, even if it's true, I see no reason that McPhee would've minded that. They ended up with Clark FFS. Ovie didn't get the C for another four years. Pretty sure young Ovie would've been fine having Chara with the C and maybe winning cups for those seasons.

 

[Cappy76]

I don't have time to pull it up but I'm pretty sure there are articles out there where mcphee flat out said he didn't want to pay the price. I feel like I remember thinking 100% he was just being frugal.

 

[pman25]

LOL

Desire and commitment don't show up in the pretty grafffs.

If they don’t show up in the stats or graphs, then how can we conclude that Semin had no heart or commitment?

If there’s no accurate measure for that, then maybe we shouldn’t be so quick to label him as such.

If we are using the eye test, he seemed to care quite a bit when he ripped the OT winner against the Rangers Game 1 2011, or when he blasted the insurance goal against Florida in 2008 to make the playoffs, or his 80 footer against Tim Thomas, or yes when he played the bongos….

Care metrics through the roof!

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

He probably did?

If he made that demand of a franchise as historic as the Bruins, why wouldn't he do that here?

The point is GMGM did not necessarily tap out on Chara because he was being frugal.

Yeah I don't think so....that's an outrageous demand coming into another team. For the Bruins, makes sense. The room largely decides its leadership, and what room wants or would respond to a complete stranger forcing themselves into a Captain role?

Final ruling: non-issue, it was all money.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

If they don’t show up in the stats or graphs, then how can we conclude that Semin had no heart or commitment?

If there’s no accurate measure for that, then maybe we shouldn’t be so quick to label him as such.

If we are using the eye test, he seemed to care quite a bit when he ripped the OT winner against the Rangers Game 1 2011, or when he blasted the insurance goal against Florida in 2008 to make the playoffs, or his 80 footer against Tim Thomas, or yes when he played the bongos….

Care metrics through the roof!

I don't need to assign a number to a player to know they're a "dog" or a "warrior/heart and soul-type".

That's an absurd prerequisite and exactly the overlying point....some posters just can't or refuse to see past the numbers. Semin's own teammates publicly said they never knew which guy would show up/what you get....it's not been suggested he NEVER cared, just like Kuzy sadly. It's the massive highs and lows that make it obvious and painful for fans.

You don't need math to understand people.

 

[Silky mitts]

Of course these items also don't show up on the scoreboard and the standings, otherwise Quintin Laing and Matt Bradley's skull would be perennial MVPs.

Style vs. substance is a common theme around here. Aside from durability and maybe taking a few too many penalties, the critiques of Semin are mainly just stylistic. A lot of people don't like the way he looked, ignoring his incredibly huge impact on the team's goal differential in all situations and in all three zones.

View attachment 896048

https://x.com/i/web/status/1554672352981565440

Mangi had similar numbers over a 2 year span when he was playing with great players (not as good as the guys on Caps 09-11 of course) but I don't think peeps were talking him up as a top 10 player. Maybe hindsight says these 2 were more passengers than top 10 players.

 

[twabby]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1554672352981565440

Mangi had similar numbers over a 2 year span when he was playing with great players (not as good as the guys on Caps 09-11 of course) but I don't think peeps were talking him up as a top 10 player. Maybe hindsight says these 2 were more passengers than top 10 players.

I think Mangiapane truly was an excellent player though. He's dropped off and dealt with injuries of his own, but he reached very high highs and it's why I like him as a cheap bet from DC.

Elias Lindholm is a perfect counter example to what you're saying. He's a guy who played with great players in Gaudreau and Tkachuk but the numbers still accurately identified Lindholm as a passenger.

 

[Silky mitts]

I think Mangiapane truly was an excellent player though. He's dropped off and dealt with injuries of his own, but he reached very high highs and it's why I like him as a cheap bet from DC.

Elias Lindholm is a perfect counter example to what you're saying. He's a guy who played with great players in Gaudreau and Tkachuk but the numbers still accurately identified Lindholm as a passenger.

These stats and goal differential are all on ice event stats. As a top 6 fixture Semin was playing more than half his minutes with prime Ovy and also over half his minutes with the best offensive defenseman in the league. He wasn’t actually producing as a top 5 5-on-5 player., his on ice events were top 5.

 

[BondraEra]

I don't need to assign a number to a player to know they're a "dog" or a "warrior/heart and soul-type".

That's an absurd prerequisite and exactly the overlying point....some posters just can't or refuse to see past the numbers. Semin's own teammates publicly said they never knew which guy would show up/what you get....it's not been suggested he NEVER cared, just like Kuzy sadly. It's the massive highs and lows that make it obvious and painful for fans.

You don't need math to understand people.

Oh brother.

 

[Corby78]

I don’t know how anyone can deny there is more tk a player than just the box score and fancy stats. The best player talent wise on my HS team was a nightmare. Never played in the system, was extremely selfish, and killed his own line because of his attitude. Box score would say he was one of the best kids on the team, but he was a huge underachiever because he never played a team game. He eventually left our HS team and went to a Junior team. (Then got kicked off that team because of his attitude) long story short, anyone who watched/played hockey could see he had the most talent, but for other reasons was never the best player.

Not for the same reasons, but this is where is see Kuzy/Semin. Very talented but never reached what they could have. And stats don’t tell that story

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Oh brother.

Truth hurts…

 

[twabby]

These stats and goal differential are all on ice event stats. As a top 6 fixture Semin was playing more than half his minutes with prime Ovy and also over half his minutes with the best offensive defenseman in the league. He wasn’t actually producing as a top 5 5-on-5 player., his on ice events were top 5.

On a rate basis he was the 4th most productive player at 5v5 from 2008-2011, behind only Crosby and the Sedins. He outproduced Ovechkin on a rate basis during that same time period at 5v5.

Semin was also the most proficient goal scorer in the entire NHL at 5v5 on a rate basis from 2008-2011. Again ahead of Ovechkin and indeed the entire NHL.

The breakdown of his 5v5 minutes are as follows:

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/linestats.php?fromseason=20082009&thruseason=20102011&stype=2&sit=sva&score=all&rate=n&team=WSH&vteam=ALL&view=wowy&loc=B&gpfilt=none&fd=2008-10-04&td=2011-04-10&tgp=2000&strict=incl&p1=8471242&p2=8470120&p3=8471214&p4=0&p5=0

~1240 (47%) of his 5v5 minutes were with neither Ovechkin nor Green on the ice. ~550 (20%) with Ovechkin only. ~470 (18%) with Green only. ~410 (15%) with both.

So the actual TOI numbers do not agree with your assessment of Semin's deployment with Ovechkin and Green. There's no real statistical case to be made that Semin was carried by his teammates.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

On a rate basis he was the 4th most productive player at 5v5 from 2008-2011, behind only Crosby and the Sedins. He outproduced Ovechkin on a rate basis during that same time period at 5v5.

Semin was also the most proficient goal scorer in the entire NHL at 5v5 on a rate basis from 2008-2011. Again ahead of Ovechkin and indeed the entire NHL.

The breakdown of his 5v5 minutes are as follows:

https://www.naturalstattrick.com/linestats.php?fromseason=20082009&thruseason=20102011&stype=2&sit=sva&score=all&rate=n&team=WSH&vteam=ALL&view=wowy&loc=B&gpfilt=none&fd=2008-10-04&td=2011-04-10&tgp=2000&strict=incl&p1=8471242&p2=8470120&p3=8471214&p4=0&p5=0

~1240 (47%) of his 5v5 minutes were with neither Ovechkin nor Green on the ice. ~550 (20%) with Ovechkin only. ~470 (18%) with Green only. ~410 (15%) with both.

So the actual TOI numbers do not agree with your assessment of Semin's deployment with Ovechkin and Green. There's no real statistical case to be made that Semin was carried by his teammates.

Silky doesn’t actually say Semin was carried by 8 or 52, just noting their time together.

Did Semin actually rank on the top 5 in even strength goals 08-11 or is this only a rate thing again?

Actual production > rate production…..

 

[twabby]

Silky doesn’t actually say Semin was carried by 8 or 52, just noting their time together.

Did Semin actually rank on the top 5 in even strength goals 08-11 or is this only a rate thing again?

Actual production > rate production…..

Tied for 3rd in 5v5 goals with Kovalchuk (70), behind only Ovechkin (74) and Crosby (73).

t-17th in 5v5 points (tied with Datsyuk, Toews, and Thornton). Only 2 fewer 5v5 points than Nick Backstrom.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

4th in 5v5 goals, behind only Ovechkin, Crosby, and Kovalchuk.

17th in 5v5 points (tied with Datsyuk, Toews, and Thornton).

He had some very good years….so did Kuzy.

 

[twabby]

He had some very good years….so did Kuzy.

Indeed! I am glad we have reached a common conclusion!