- Oct 9, 2012
- 31,529
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I don't know how anyone can say it isn't close tbh.This really shouldn't be close. Toews was great but Barkov is a completely different animal.
Both guys are obviously elite defensively (edge to Barkov), but I never saw Toews as the type of guy who could really drive 5v5 offense on his own at a high level. In terms of creating offense, Barkov is significantly ahead.I don't know how anyone can say it isn't close tbh.
Impartiality is when your opinion aligns with mine.Toews in 2010 is better than any version of Barkov I've seen. Coming here for a partial opinion on these 2 guys would be like going to a Starbucks for a debate on gender roles. Toews is prob bottom 5 hated player OAT on HF and Barkov has a cult following. Toews was Canada's best player in that Olympics, that whole year, at such a young age was impressive.
Yeah very overrated. Hawks fans tripping over themselves to come defend him is quite comical.Toews is one of the most overrated players of all time.
Barkov
Both guys are obviously elite defensively (edge to Barkov), but I never saw Toews as the type of guy who could really drive 5v5 offense on his own at a high level. In terms of creating offense, Barkov is significantly ahead.
Both guys are obviously elite defensively (edge to Barkov), but I never saw Toews as the type of guy who could really drive 5v5 offense on his own at a high level. In terms of creating offense, Barkov is significantly ahead.
And his most common linemates were guys like Kane, Hossa, and Sharp in those spans. He was a great compliment to high end offensive wingers and produced well with them, but he was not the primary offensive weapon on his line 95% of the time.Yet Toews was a decidedly better 5v5 producer in his best years. Over his best 6 years from 09-10 to 13-14, Toews was 9th in 5v5 points and 8th in 5v5 P/60. And over his best 3 years from 10-11 to 2013 he was 6th in 5v5 points and 3rd in 5v5 P/60 (after only Crosby and Malkin).
This is false.Over either his best 6 years or 3 years, Barkov hasn’t been top 20 in either 5v5 points or P/60.
Agreed, but those skills aren't necessarily rewarded on the scoreboard without elite offensive wingers who can take advantage of those subtle plays.Toews wasn’t a flashy puck carrier, but he was great at getting the puck moving to the right spot either from getting to loose pucks and breaking up plays and passing off or working the boards or getting to the front of the net. He also had some pretty great puck skills when he needed to use them. I think it’s similar to how Matthews creates offense without being a major puck carrier, though obviously Toews didn’t have Matthews’ shot.
And his most common linemates were guys like Kane, Hossa, and Sharp in those spans. He was a great compliment to high end offensive wingers and produced well with them, but he was not the primary offensive weapon on his line 95% of the time.
This is false.
From 2015-16 through 2017-18 Barkov was 10th in 5v5 p/60 (>150 gp)
From 2015-16 through 2020-21 Barkov was 15th in 5v5 points.
Agreed, but those skills aren't necessarily rewarded on the scoreboard without elite offensive wingers who can take advantage of those subtle plays.
And his most common linemates were guys like Kane, Hossa, and Sharp in those spans. He was a great compliment to high end offensive wingers and produced well with them, but he was not the primary offensive weapon on his line 95% of the time.
Their 5v5 scoring levels were essentially identical when on the ice together from 2011-12 to 2013-14 (59 points for Toews, 58 points for Hossa).Hossa scored less than Toews 5v5 when together
I think you mean 5 years, not 6?and Kane was only a regular line mate for the first 2 of those 6 years. I don’t see how Toews is not the primary offensive driver of his line when he’s scoring the most on it
Those are all great examples of guys who are great complimentary offensive players (ignoring Jagr's prime, obviously). Guys like Kane and Hossa are much more well rounded offensive threats.Fair enough on Barkov. I was only looking at the past 6 years as I didn’t think he’d finish higher starting earlier in his career. He’s also had linemates like Huberdeau, Jagr, Verhaghe and Reinhart who aren’t exactly lacking offensively
Both guys are obviously elite defensively (edge to Barkov), but I never saw Toews as the type of guy who could really drive 5v5 offense on his own at a high level. In terms of creating offense, Barkov is significantly ahead.
Hossa in the 2010’s wasn’t a more well rounded scorer than Toews. Wrong again about something Blackhawks related. Stick to the eastern conference palTheir 5v5 scoring levels were essentially identical when on the ice together from 2011-12 to 2013-14 (59 points for Toews, 58 points for Hossa).
I think you mean 5 years, not 6?
When he played with Kane, he was certainly not the primary offensive driver. Without Kane, he and Hossa worked well to drive offense together, though that was typically their secondary purpose.
Those are all great examples of guys who are great complimentary offensive players (ignoring Jagr's prime, obviously). Guys like Kane and Hossa are much more well rounded offensive threats.
Those are all great examples of guys who are great complimentary offensive players (ignoring Jagr's prime, obviously). Guys like Kane and Hossa are much more well rounded offensive threats.
This is a loony position. Toews was one of the best 5v5 play drivers of the 2010s, and an excellent 5v5 scorer.
In comparison to Barkov, Barkov's most productive season 5v5 is one point better than Toews (48 pts). Toews best season is tied with Barkov's 2nd best (47 points), and then Toews has FIVE better 5v5 scoring seasons before Barkov's 3rd best 5v5 scoring season.
Toews has SIX seasons with higher 5v5 goal-scoring than Barkov's best 5v5 goal-scoring year.
Toews also has four seasons with higher individual expected goals (iXG) than Barkov's peak iXG season.
In terms of xGF% performances, between the two of them, Toews has the best season, 3 of the top 5 seasons, and 6 of the top 10 seasons.
In terms of relative xGF% to teammates (how much better he was than the team without him on the ice), Toews has the best season, 2 of the top 5 seasons, and 6 of the top 10 seasons between them.
I can screenshot the tables if you want the exact numbers.
There really isn't any quantifiable argument for Barkov as a better 5v5 offensive player or play driver than Toews unless you're putting A LOT of stock into that one time he outscored Toews best season by one point.
and that doesn't even account for the difference in the scoring eras, does it?
His team was also much better than Barkov's. There are no superstars on the Panthers besides Barkov.At the same age, Toews had led the Hawks to 3 Stanley Cups.
His team was also much better than Barkov's. There are no superstars on the Panthers besides Barkov.
Still not the level that Kane and Keith were on those Hawks teams.Not that I'm denying the Hawks were more star studded. But...
Bobrovsky was just a vezina finalist this year, and was arguably the best goalie last postseason. Forsling just finished 9th in Norris voting. These 2 are debatable at least..
But i dont think Tkachuk is. He has 2 consecutive 100 point seasons, one of which he finished 3rd in Hart voting. This season was a bit of a down year, yet he still managed to finish top 20 in scoring
Barkov is definitely their best player, but he's not the only superstar on the team.