Aleksander Barkov now vs Jonathan Toews prime?

[Three On Zero]

Peak Toews, people underrate just how good he could be in the playoffs

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

This really shouldn't be close. Toews was great but Barkov is a completely different animal.

 

[Felidae]

This really shouldn't be close. Toews was great but Barkov is a completely different animal.

I don't know how anyone can say it isn't close tbh.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I don't know how anyone can say it isn't close tbh.

Both guys are obviously elite defensively (edge to Barkov), but I never saw Toews as the type of guy who could really drive 5v5 offense on his own at a high level. In terms of creating offense, Barkov is significantly ahead.

 

[JPT]

Toews in 2010 is better than any version of Barkov I've seen. Coming here for a partial opinion on these 2 guys would be like going to a Starbucks for a debate on gender roles. Toews is prob bottom 5 hated player OAT on HF and Barkov has a cult following. Toews was Canada's best player in that Olympics, that whole year, at such a young age was impressive.

 Impartiality is when your opinion aligns with mine.

There's a myth that opinions need to come from someone who is  impartial for them to be valid. They don't. Also if you went into a Starbucks to debate gender roles, I'd imagine you would find a bunch of people who are suddenly very annoyed with the weird guy trying to argue while they drink their coffee. This place, however, is specifically for these kinds of discussions among partial fans. Your analogy doesn't really work, but for some reason I don't think the point was to create a good analogy.

At any rate, I'd take Toews in his prime at the moment. Barkov is close, and he likely overtakes Toews as having the better career if he remains healthy and consistent imo.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Toews is one of the most overrated players of all time.

Barkov

Yeah very overrated. Hawks fans tripping over themselves to come defend him is quite comical.

 

[DitchMarner]

Both guys are obviously elite defensively (edge to Barkov), but I never saw Toews as the type of guy who could really drive 5v5 offense on his own at a high level. In terms of creating offense, Barkov is significantly ahead.

Yeah, I watched a lot of games of his in his prime (mostly in the playoffs), and he didn't seem like a guy who was particularly great at carrying the puck or generating offense on his own.

I think he may have had some advanced stats suggesting he was a good play driver in his own way (maybe they were more geared toward possession or tilting the ice). I know his analytics were good when he was at his best. But in terms of actual skill set, Barkov is clearly better offensively in certain ways.

 

[Regal]

Both guys are obviously elite defensively (edge to Barkov), but I never saw Toews as the type of guy who could really drive 5v5 offense on his own at a high level. In terms of creating offense, Barkov is significantly ahead.

Yet Toews was a decidedly better 5v5 producer in his best years. Over his best 6 years from 09-10 to 13-14, Toews was 9th in 5v5 points and 8th in 5v5 P/60. And over his best 3 years from 10-11 to 2013 he was 6th in 5v5 points and 3rd in 5v5 P/60 (after only Crosby and Malkin). Over either his best 6 years or 3 years, Barkov hasn’t been top 20 in either 5v5 points or P/60.

Toews wasn’t a flashy puck carrier, but he was great at getting the puck moving to the right spot either from getting to loose pucks and breaking up plays and passing off or working the boards or getting to the front of the net. He also had some pretty great puck skills when he needed to use them. I think it’s similar to how Matthews creates offense without being a major puck carrier, though obviously Toews didn’t have Matthews’ shot.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Yet Toews was a decidedly better 5v5 producer in his best years. Over his best 6 years from 09-10 to 13-14, Toews was 9th in 5v5 points and 8th in 5v5 P/60. And over his best 3 years from 10-11 to 2013 he was 6th in 5v5 points and 3rd in 5v5 P/60 (after only Crosby and Malkin).

And his most common linemates were guys like Kane, Hossa, and Sharp in those spans. He was a great compliment to high end offensive wingers and produced well with them, but he was not the primary offensive weapon on his line 95% of the time.

Over either his best 6 years or 3 years, Barkov hasn’t been top 20 in either 5v5 points or P/60.

This is false.

From 2015-16 through 2017-18 Barkov was 10th in 5v5 p/60 (>150 gp)
From 2015-16 through 2020-21 Barkov was 15th in 5v5 points.

Toews wasn’t a flashy puck carrier, but he was great at getting the puck moving to the right spot either from getting to loose pucks and breaking up plays and passing off or working the boards or getting to the front of the net. He also had some pretty great puck skills when he needed to use them. I think it’s similar to how Matthews creates offense without being a major puck carrier, though obviously Toews didn’t have Matthews’ shot.

Agreed, but those skills aren't necessarily rewarded on the scoreboard without elite offensive wingers who can take advantage of those subtle plays.

 

[Regal]

And his most common linemates were guys like Kane, Hossa, and Sharp in those spans. He was a great compliment to high end offensive wingers and produced well with them, but he was not the primary offensive weapon on his line 95% of the time.


This is false.

From 2015-16 through 2017-18 Barkov was 10th in 5v5 p/60 (>150 gp)
From 2015-16 through 2020-21 Barkov was 15th in 5v5 points.


Agreed, but those skills aren't necessarily rewarded on the scoreboard without elite offensive wingers who can take advantage of those subtle plays.

Hossa scored less than Toews 5v5 when together and Kane was only a regular line mate for the first 2 of those 6 years. I don’t see how Toews is not the primary offensive driver of his line when he’s scoring the most on it

Fair enough on Barkov. I was only looking at the past 6 years as I didn’t think he’d finish higher starting earlier in his career. He’s also had linemates like Huberdeau, Jagr, Verhaghe and Reinhart who aren’t exactly lacking offensively

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

And his most common linemates were guys like Kane, Hossa, and Sharp in those spans. He was a great compliment to high end offensive wingers and produced well with them, but he was not the primary offensive weapon on his line 95% of the time.

This isn't a great barometer given Barkov has been most frequently outscored by his teammates/linemates--sometimes significantly.

They serve more similar roles than you're giving credit for--being elite 200ft forces, retrieving AND driving the puck, facilitating the scoring of great-to-elite wingers.

 

[ShootIt]

Hard to say for me. Toews story is written, Barkov is still in his prime(hopefully) for 3-5 years.

I think it's very close, just depends on how long Barkov can be in his prime and how much hardware he can get while in his prime.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Hossa scored less than Toews 5v5 when together

Their 5v5 scoring levels were essentially identical when on the ice together from 2011-12 to 2013-14 (59 points for Toews, 58 points for Hossa).

and Kane was only a regular line mate for the first 2 of those 6 years. I don’t see how Toews is not the primary offensive driver of his line when he’s scoring the most on it

I think you mean 5 years, not 6?

When he played with Kane, he was certainly not the primary offensive driver. Without Kane, he and Hossa worked well to drive offense together, though that was typically their secondary purpose.

Fair enough on Barkov. I was only looking at the past 6 years as I didn’t think he’d finish higher starting earlier in his career. He’s also had linemates like Huberdeau, Jagr, Verhaghe and Reinhart who aren’t exactly lacking offensively

Those are all great examples of guys who are great complimentary offensive players (ignoring Jagr's prime, obviously). Guys like Kane and Hossa are much more well rounded offensive threats.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Recency bias might anoint Barkov at the top, but if you go take a deep look at what Toews did during his prime, you realize he is the answer to that question.

People seem to forget that Toews was a top 10 player in his prime and has been quite better than Barkov in the playoffs (so far).

 

[AvroArrow]

Even if we say they're a wash defensively, Barkovs offensive talent >>

 

[JaegerDice]

Both guys are obviously elite defensively (edge to Barkov), but I never saw Toews as the type of guy who could really drive 5v5 offense on his own at a high level. In terms of creating offense, Barkov is significantly ahead.

This is a loony position. Toews was one of the best 5v5 play drivers of the 2010s, and an excellent 5v5 scorer.

In comparison to Barkov, Barkov's most productive season 5v5 is one point better than Toews (48 pts). Toews best season is tied with Barkov's 2nd best (47 points), and then Toews has FIVE better 5v5 scoring seasons before Barkov's 3rd best 5v5 scoring season.

Toews has SIX seasons with higher 5v5 goal-scoring than Barkov's best 5v5 goal-scoring year.

Toews also has four seasons with higher individual expected goals (iXG) than Barkov's peak iXG season.

In terms of xGF% performances, between the two of them, Toews has the best season, 3 of the top 5 seasons, and 6 of the top 10 seasons.

In terms of relative xGF% to teammates (how much better he was than the team without him on the ice), Toews has the best season, 2 of the top 5 seasons, and 6 of the top 10 seasons between them.

I can screenshot the tables if you want the exact numbers.

There really isn't any quantifiable argument for Barkov as a better 5v5 offensive player or play driver than Toews unless you're putting A LOT of stock into that one time he outscored Toews best season by one point.

 

[pi314]

Toews is one of those guys that stats will never do justice.

Not because of the "intangibles" people are always droning on about.

Because real hockey is more than just goals, assists, and points.

He had 20 ways to beat you that don't easily show up on a stat sheet.

Winning key face offs.
Breaking up a play.
Well-timed poke check.
Clogging a shooting lane.
Chipping a puck off the glass.
Control the play down low.
Etc.

He did all the little immeasurable things really well.

He also was extremely clutch on the biggest of stages.

 

[Stephen]

At the same age, Toews had led the Hawks to 3 Stanley Cups.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Their 5v5 scoring levels were essentially identical when on the ice together from 2011-12 to 2013-14 (59 points for Toews, 58 points for Hossa).


I think you mean 5 years, not 6?

When he played with Kane, he was certainly not the primary offensive driver. Without Kane, he and Hossa worked well to drive offense together, though that was typically their secondary purpose.

Those are all great examples of guys who are great complimentary offensive players (ignoring Jagr's prime, obviously). Guys like Kane and Hossa are much more well rounded offensive threats.

Hossa in the 2010’s wasn’t a more well rounded scorer than Toews. Wrong again about something Blackhawks related. Stick to the eastern conference pal

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Those are all great examples of guys who are great complimentary offensive players (ignoring Jagr's prime, obviously). Guys like Kane and Hossa are much more well rounded offensive threats.

Haven't seen many 'complementary' players who outscore the 'main' guy by 30 points plus on multiple occasions.

Kane Hossa Sharp et al are magnificent players of course but we can't just unsee Reinhart's 57 goals, Tkachuks' 109 points to Barkov's 78, Huberdeau's 115 to Barkov's 88.

This is a loony position. Toews was one of the best 5v5 play drivers of the 2010s, and an excellent 5v5 scorer.

In comparison to Barkov, Barkov's most productive season 5v5 is one point better than Toews (48 pts). Toews best season is tied with Barkov's 2nd best (47 points), and then Toews has FIVE better 5v5 scoring seasons before Barkov's 3rd best 5v5 scoring season.

Toews has SIX seasons with higher 5v5 goal-scoring than Barkov's best 5v5 goal-scoring year.

Toews also has four seasons with higher individual expected goals (iXG) than Barkov's peak iXG season.

In terms of xGF% performances, between the two of them, Toews has the best season, 3 of the top 5 seasons, and 6 of the top 10 seasons.

In terms of relative xGF% to teammates (how much better he was than the team without him on the ice), Toews has the best season, 2 of the top 5 seasons, and 6 of the top 10 seasons between them.

I can screenshot the tables if you want the exact numbers.

There really isn't any quantifiable argument for Barkov as a better 5v5 offensive player or play driver than Toews unless you're putting A LOT of stock into that one time he outscored Toews best season by one point.

and that doesn't even account for the difference in the scoring eras, does it?

 

[JaegerDice]

and that doesn't even account for the difference in the scoring eras, does it?

Indeed, it does not.

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

At the same age, Toews had led the Hawks to 3 Stanley Cups.

His team was also much better than Barkov's. There are no superstars on the Panthers besides Barkov.

 

[Felidae]

His team was also much better than Barkov's. There are no superstars on the Panthers besides Barkov.

Not that I'm denying the Hawks were more star studded. But...

Bobrovsky was just a vezina finalist this year, and was arguably the best goalie last postseason. Forsling just finished 9th in Norris voting. These 2 are debatable at least..

But i dont think Tkachuk is. He has 2 consecutive 100 point seasons, one of which he finished 3rd in Hart voting. This season was a bit of a down year, yet he still managed to finish top 20 in scoring

Barkov is definitely their best player, but he's not the only superstar on the team.

 

[Imgoingtowork]

Two level hockey individuals but Barkov better right now than Toews peak.

 

[triggrman]

Not that I'm denying the Hawks were more star studded. But...

Bobrovsky was just a vezina finalist this year, and was arguably the best goalie last postseason. Forsling just finished 9th in Norris voting. These 2 are debatable at least..

But i dont think Tkachuk is. He has 2 consecutive 100 point seasons, one of which he finished 3rd in Hart voting. This season was a bit of a down year, yet he still managed to finish top 20 in scoring

Barkov is definitely their best player, but he's not the only superstar on the team.

Still not the level that Kane and Keith were on those Hawks teams.