GDT: Aisles @ Haves: Game 3 - October 14, 2024 7:00pm MT (Canadian Turkey Day edition)

[NOTENOUGHRYJOTHINGS]

Hit the nail harder, it's sure to go in eventually.......

Uh....... Bedsy.......it ain't working. Either adjust..... Or suffer the consequences.

Bednar can coach at the NHL level. Is he a top tier coach? No. His record is over sells his actual ability to coach. He had an incredible roster to work with for so long.

I think Bednar will land somewhere else and look a bit better in terms of actually coaching a team. Even if the record is worse. There's a bit of a chicken and egg thing here but some of the Avs top players don't seem very coachable. They get by on sheer talent and the stars do want to win and play hard.

But they play dumb very often. And that's partially on the players and partially on the coach.

Give Bednar a locker room full of lesser talents where the goal is to squeeze into the wild card seed and maybe win a few games in the first round. And you'll see he has some real coaching chops.

 

[S E P H]

lol

@Alienblood was saying he's the MVP to the team, not on the team.

 

[Alienblood]

@Alienblood was saying he's the MVP to the team, not on the team.

good catch Seph.

 

[henchman21]

Bednar's system is predicated on skating and working teams to death. It requires a very high effort level and a team that doesn't make a ton of mistakes. If the effort level slumps, even a little bit, the whole system can get out of whack. Or if a team can rail on the defense like a Mia Khalifa flick, they don't have anything they can adjust to. Bednar fully believes in his system and feels it should over power teams. There is no adjustment, just more effort.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

Bednar's system is predicated on skating and working teams to death. It requires a very high effort level and a team that doesn't make a ton of mistakes. If the effort level slumps, even a little bit, the whole system can get out of whack. Or if a team can rail on the defense like a Mia Khalifa flick, they don't have anything they can adjust to. Bednar fully believes in his system and feels it should over power teams. There is no adjustment, just more effort.

It's one of those things where it feels like there's a bit of a disconnect between Beds and CMac, and the team isn't really gelling together as it's a bunch of mishmash pieces.

 

[henchman21]

It's one of those things where it feels like there's a bit of a disconnect between Beds and CMac, and the team isn't really gelling together as it's a bunch of mishmash pieces.

There might be, but it is pure speculation on either side. Bednar asked for his team to be more physical and faster, CMac did deliver that. The line that epitomized it last year was the roaring 20s line... and I'd argue Bednar way overplayed them. I'd say that is a signal he liked those moves and they fit his ideal.

In either case though, the book is out on playing the Avs. If you can apply heavy pressure with big bodies, you can grind them into submission (formerly Vegas method and what Roy did last night). If you can't pressure at that level, but you can clog the neutral zone and trap, you can frustrate them into big mistakes and counter attack. If you can cycle on the then, you wear them down and amplify the risks they take too. This is the Stars' method. If a team can't do those, the Avs will dominate them and embarrass a number of (bad) teams.

 

[Ceremony]

It's good that the team really stepped up and at least shared some of the blame with Fourgiev with an all-timer of a shite performance.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

There might be, but it is pure speculation on either side. Bednar asked for his team to be more physical and faster, CMac did deliver that. The line that epitomized it last year was the roaring 20s line... and I'd argue Bednar way overplayed them. I'd say that is a signal he liked those moves and they fit his ideal.

In either case though, the book is out on playing the Avs. If you can apply heavy pressure with big bodies, you can grind them into submission (formerly Vegas method and what Roy did last night). If you can't pressure at that level, but you can clog the neutral zone and trap, you can frustrate them into big mistakes and counter attack. If you can cycle on the then, you wear them down and amplify the risks they take too. This is the Stars' method. If a team can't do those, the Avs will dominate them and embarrass a number of (bad) teams.

I think there was a bit of a undervaluing of the amount of hockey IQ that is required to play Bednar's system, as well as Bednar having no patience for guys that are better when they are tip toing on the line of being a clean or dirty player. I think the biggest issue is that Bednar and crew haven't really adjusted much of anything, they are playing the exact same way as they did with the 2022 team, but with significantly less talent and depth.

Their inability to adjust beyond "skate faster and try harder" is one of the major reasons they lost to Vegas, and it's quite evident (as you've pointed out) that other teams have figured this team out.

Something needs to change.

 

[henchman21]

I think there was a bit of a undervaluing of the amount of hockey IQ that is required to play Bednar's system, as well as Bednar having no patience for guys that are better when they are tip toing on the line of being a clean or dirty player. I think the biggest issue is that Bednar and crew haven't really adjusted much of anything, they are playing the exact same way as they did with the 2022 team, but with significantly less talent and depth.

Their inability to adjust beyond "skate faster and try harder" is one of the major reasons they lost to Vegas, and it's quite evident (as you've pointed out) that other teams have figured this team out.

Something needs to change.

I'd argue even Bednar underrates what level of IQ it takes. He will shuffle in a lot of really stupid players because they have effort and pressure like he wants. I'd also say the Avs as an org don't seem to value high IQ very much. They go out and get a lot of really dumb hockey players and even with their picks they take a lot of risks on all tools, but no toolbox sort of guys. This is partially why Mitts is so refreshing here. He's not an elite IQ guy, but he is clearly a smart player. How much smarter he is than all but ~3 or 4 guys is so clearly evident and a nice change for the team. It speaks volumes of how little IQ there is throughout the lineup though.

 

[SoundwaveIsCharisma]

I'd argue even Bednar underrates what level of IQ it takes. He will shuffle in a lot of really stupid players because they have effort and pressure like he wants. I'd also say the Avs as an org don't seem to value high IQ very much. They go out and get a lot of really dumb hockey players and even with their picks they take a lot of risks on all tools, but no toolbox sort of guys. This is partially why Mitts is so refreshing here. He's not an elite IQ guy, but he is clearly a smart player. How much smarter he is than all but ~3 or 4 guys is so clearly evident and a nice change for the team. It speaks volumes of how little IQ there is throughout the lineup though.

It's so frustrating. I think you can get away with having some dumb-dumbs, but you gotta let them go over the line and be fine with that. Instead, Bednar neuters guys that do well playing aggressive but simple hockey, and instead tells them they need to play nice but increase the complexity of how they play.

I actually think the additions for last years team at the deadline would've worked great if their job was just to go out there and rough people up and try to hurt them a bit. That's not something Bednar likes though.

 

[henchman21]

It's so frustrating. I think you can get away with having some dumb-dumbs, but you gotta let them go over the line and be fine with that. Instead, Bednar neuters guys that do well playing aggressive but simple hockey, and instead tells them they need to play nice but increase the complexity of how they play.

I actually think the additions for last years team at the deadline would've worked great if their job was just to go out there and rough people up and try to hurt them a bit. That's not something Bednar likes though.

Yup... he's asking guys who ate paint chips as kids to think.

 

[avsfan09]

Bednar jumping at the chance to glaze Georgie after shitting all over his skaters makes me sick to my stomach. "Was his best start of the three" "Made some big saves" "Big step in the right direction" like, what the f*** are you doing? Are you trying to convince yourself that he isn't the goalie everyone else knows he is? If you're going to die on this hill, then that's exactly what you deserve. f*** off

It really feels like he’s going to have play Georgie to push management to make a move. If they think the seasons in jeopardy they have to make a move right? Right lol.

 

[dahrougem2]

In my opinion as the years have gone by we have seen Bednar's flaws re: roster construction come out in a MAJOR way.

The team he inherited and received for the first couple of seasons was LITTERED with high IQ players. Guys who have left like Compher, Kadri, Burakovsky, Saad, Kerfoot, Calvert, Wilson, Aube-Kubel, Cogliano. Not to mention the guys on this current roster like Landeskog, Drouin, Toews, Lehkonen, and Nichushkin currently out of action.

That's from a GM. Then when you get guys like Colton, Wood, Duhaime, Trenin, Kelly, etc and there's a clear emphasis on getting bigger but we are losing more and more guys who can think.

I don't know. To me it seems like Bednar believes his system is what caused us to win, when in reality the guys Sakic/CMac brought to this team pre-dummies were littered with hard work AND IQ.

The dummies work hard. But they are dummies for a reason. When most of your high IQ guys are out of the lineup, it compounds.

I think we're seeing the major flaws in Bednar's system.

 

[McMetal]

Kylington's defending was horrific, yet look at what Georgiev did on that goal. He was flailing forward. Nelson had the entire net to shoot at. Then he doesn't even move on Nelson's 2nd goal.

Then look at Sorokin in the 2nd late when we are pushing and how big of a save he made on Ludvig who had even more time than Nelson did.

That's the difference right now. Even if the Avs put up 4 goals like they did in their first two games, opposition goalies are still making more big saves than Georgiev is.

The fact that we're waiting until the 3rd when we're down 4-1 to reference a big save he made is testament enough.

Like I said, I don't have all of the timestamps or a photographic memory of the game, but that was only the first one that came to mind where I had a clear memory of the play. There were others that I noticed.

And I think we can all agree that Brock Nelson is a little bit better at scoring goals than John Ludvig. Remember, the goalie isn't the only one who has agency in a one on one situation. You could say that if the goalie plays his position correctly, he'll never allow a goal, but on the flip side you could say that if the shooter plays his position correctly, he'll never miss. Something has to give there. Nelson is in his 12th season and has nearly 300 NHL goals, he's done this a few times now and he had all day to deke on Georgiev. It's really hard to blame Georgiev for losing that one on one battle, but praise Sorokin for winning a similar contest against a fringe NHL defenseman.

Georgiev was appallingly bad the first two games, zero question. But he wasn't at fault for this loss.

 

[AvStock]

Bednar and cmac are idiots

 

[henchman21]

Georgiev was appallingly bad the first two games, zero question. But he wasn't at fault for this loss.

Fault... no. Contributed... very much so. We're still talking about a goalie that gave up ~2.5 above expected and at minimum 2 of the 5 goals should have been saved.

 

[LOFIN]

Fault... no. Contributed... very much so. We're still talking about a goalie that gave up ~2.5 above expected and at minimum 2 of the 5 goals should have been saved.

Not to mention how it affects the way the team plays in front when they don't have any faith in getting a save.

 

[dahrougem2]

Like I said, I don't have all of the timestamps or a photographic memory of the game, but that was only the first one that came to mind where I had a clear memory of the play. There were others that I noticed.

And I think we can all agree that Brock Nelson is a little bit better at scoring goals than John Ludvig. Remember, the goalie isn't the only one who has agency in a one on one situation. You could say that if the goalie plays his position correctly, he'll never allow a goal, but on the flip side you could say that if the shooter plays his position correctly, he'll never miss. Something has to give there. Nelson is in his 12th season and has nearly 300 NHL goals, he's done this a few times now and he had all day to deke on Georgiev. It's really hard to blame Georgiev for losing that one on one battle, but praise Sorokin for winning a similar contest against a fringe NHL defenseman.

Georgiev was appallingly bad the first two games, zero question. But he wasn't at fault for this loss.

I don't disagree re: Nelson and good shooters. Where I disagree is absolving Georgiev for the loss.

Goal 1 was bad. Yeah, he shouldn't get two whacks at a puck but Georgiev also shouldn't be so weak on his post. It's goaltending 101. Those kinds of goals should never happen.

Goal 2 was just a horrific read.

Goal 3, sure give Nelson credit.

Goal 4 he doesn't even move.

Goal 5 is on Makar.

So at the end of the day, he's STILL allowing 3, if you're generous 2, goals that he shouldn't be. He's giving the team zero chance of winning.

Look at how well the Avs were playing the first 5 minutes. Scored a goal, Ritchie gets stopped on a pseudo-breakaway, they are buzzing all over NYI, shots 6-0. Then the Isles score a horrible goal and what happens? They take over the rest of the game. It KILLS a team.

 

[Chileiceman]

Georgiev at least made the saves he had to make last night, which is an improvement but it was still a bad game from him. He made 0 big saves that I can recall.

I don't think trotting him out there next game will help him. We need to see what Justus or Kaapo can do. Georgie needs to work his butt off in practice this week. I'd put him in against Anaheim on Friday. If it's another stinker, then just waive him and let him get some reps with the Eagles and make him earn his way back up to the NHL.

 

[McMetal]

Fault... no. Contributed... very much so. We're still talking about a goalie that gave up ~2.5 above expected and at minimum 2 of the 5 goals should have been saved.

Now that I can agree with. I just feel like this board has lost all ability to be objective about Georgiev's play. Every goal against is his fault and everyone else, including the opposing shooter, is blameless. No doubt, his play in the first two games was putrid, but I don't think it's radical to say he was a lot better in this game. Not great, but it should have been good enough to give us a fighting chance if it wasn't for Cale giving up turnovers at the blueline and Kylington just looking shell shocked.

 

[henchman21]

Now that I can agree with. I just feel like this board has lost all ability to be objective about Georgiev's play. Every goal against is his fault and everyone else, including the opposing shooter, is blameless. No doubt, his play in the first two games was putrid, but I don't think it's radical to say he was a lot better in this game. Not great, but it should have been good enough to give us a fighting chance if it wasn't for Cale giving up turnovers at the blueline and Kylington just looking shell shocked.

In this case, he can be radically better and still not nearly good enough. It is very difficult to win nightly with one bad goal given up. The NHL is too tight of a league to have that and expect to win. Giving up 2 is a loss the vast majority of the time. Where we are at a minimum of 2 and arguably 3, that simply makes it near impossible to win consistently. Maybe a fluke game here or there, but not even close to 25% of the time... let alone the ~60% this team will be targeting.

 

[the_fan]

I haven't really seen anyone disagree with your point so idk why you're pushing it so hard. The only argument I can think of against that is that maybe we win one or two of those games with all those players out if the team didn't get deflated by the softest goals ever. So yes I agree, the team will look better when all these players come back. Maybe even make the playoffs, but they wont go anywhere in the playoffs with this goaltending even with a fully healthy roster though (which wont happen).

I know I sound like a broken record there, but the reason I keep bringing it up is because I keep reading the reason we are losing is goaltending and it’s not. We would have won a game or two with a full line up and probably be 2-1 right now at least.

Yes, the goaltending has been bad and we would probably need an upgrade in net even with a full line up if we want to go deep in the playoffs, but the main reason we are losing right now to start the season is all the guys being out. Goaltending is the 2nd reason. We’d still be losing right now with better goaltending unless by better goaltending we’re talking about having Vasilevskiy or Shesterkin back there

 

[Rehabguy]

The head athletic trainer for the most injury riddled team with changing recovery timelines was honoured last night. Congrats, man!

Didn't watch the pregame. Did the AVS play any tribute in the arena for Roy. Like some highlight reels or such during the game? Nice for them to congratulate a trainer but I hope they at least recognized that Roy was back in the building.

 

[henchman21]

I know I sound like a broken record there, but the reason I keep bringing it up is because I keep reading the reason we are losing is goaltending and it’s not. We would have won a game or two with a full line up and probably be 2-1 right now at least.

Yes, the goaltending has been bad and we would probably need an upgrade in net even with a full line up if we want to go deep in the playoffs, but the main reason we are losing right now to start the season is all the guys being out. Goaltending is the 2nd reason. We’d still be losing right now with better goaltending unless by better goaltending we’re talking about having Vasilevskiy or Shesterkin back there

We've lost games by 4, 2, and 4 goals. Odds are not high that a full lineup with what we have seen gets us to 2-1. Maybe 1-2, but more likely 0-2-1. We're literally giving up 6.67 goals per game. Even if you assume that drops to 5.5 by defensive improvement (which stats would say we have very similar defensive output compared to last year so far, small sample... but unlikely). You'd have to come up with the goals for too. Avs history would suggest we are at max a ~3.75 goals per game team and probably closer to 3.5. So maybe an extra goal in the 3 games.

Which all of this is to say, maybe the Columbus game is a win or goes into OT. Arguably the worst roster in the league and we are looking at a toss up game.

Legitimately the Avs goaltending are giving away 4 goals over expected per game. There is no quality of team that can overcome that with any consistency.

 

[Avs_19]

Didn't watch the pregame. Did the AVS play any tribute in the arena for Roy. Like some highlight reels or such during the game? Nice for them to congratulate a trainer but I hope they at least recognized that Roy was back in the building.

Seems like they did.