AHL Affiliation/Ownership thread

[voyageur]

Boise would be another outpost city, like Charlotte. The Eagles or the Heat would be the closest teams. The AHL would still end up with 10 teams in the Pacific Division. They would be marginally less compact than having Abbotsford and Palm Springs.

I've never understood why the AHL has abandoned the South. It would be so easy for the Florida teams to have affiliates in Jacksonville and Orlando say, get a franchise like New Jersey to put their affiliate in Virginia, instead of Utica, and you have something to work with...Austin is the outlier market of all outlier markets. Which makes me wonder why you can't put a team in Oklahoma (hello St. Louis).

 

[JMCx4]

I've never understood why the AHL has abandoned the South. It would be so easy for the Florida teams to have affiliates in Jacksonville and Orlando say, get a franchise like New Jersey to put their affiliate in Virginia, instead of Utica, and you have something to work with...Austin is the outlier market of all outlier markets. Which makes me wonder why you can't put a team in Oklahoma (hello St. Louis).

Every one of your "It would be so easy" and "something to work with" and "makes me wonder why you can't put a team" hockey dreams have significant business complications & consequences. This ain't a game, it's a collection of enterprises that make or lose money based on such decisions. So when you gather up the money & gain the privilege of becoming an AHL franchise owner, you can see how it all REALLY works.

 

[NYRfan85]

The ECHL currently has a pretty strong hold on the Southeast, particularly SC, GA, and FL. Norfolk was as much of an island as Charlotte when they were in the AHL and couldn't sustain it. (As a Checkers fan, I miss that rivalry with Norfolk).

Also, Edmonton tried putting a team in Oklahoma City (OKC Barons), and it didn't work out. At one point, Charlotte was in the same division (South) as 3 Texas teams and OKC. Unfortunately, the only ones to survive in the South for whatever reason are Charlotte and Texas, so it seems they're going to remain the islands that they are for the foreseeable future.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I've never understood why the AHL has abandoned the South. It would be so easy for the Florida teams to have affiliates in Jacksonville and Orlando say, get a franchise like New Jersey to put their affiliate in Virginia, instead of Utica, and you have something to work with...Austin is the outlier market of all outlier markets. Which makes me wonder why you can't put a team in Oklahoma (hello St. Louis).

The AHL in the south making little sense is why it was abandoned.

Why the hell would the Devils put their affiliate in Virginia?

Utica to Newark call-up times are less than 4 hours.
Any somewhat feasible market in Virginia is a lot more than that.

Utica is an easy bus trip from every team in the Eastern Conference save for Charlotte. That means prospects spend less time traveling and more time working out, resting, and developing.
Virginia is an overnight trip for pretty much every team in the conference.

Having AHL southern teams isn't necessary and provides zero tangible benefits besides satisfying moronic imbeciles who look at dots on a map. Every southern NHL team can get prospects called up with every market being connected with easy non-stop flights if they need them at home, which really only happens a little more than 50% of the season because they're on the road far away from the Southeast for the rest of the season which makes the call-ups easy anyways.

Trading out teams for movement south makes almost no sense. That's why it hasn't happened. Believe it or not, the people running professional organizations know a little bit more about things than you do.

 

[voyageur]

The AHL in the south making little sense is why it was abandoned.

Why the hell would the Devils put their affiliate in Virginia?

Utica to Newark call-up times are less than 4 hours.
Any somewhat feasible market in Virginia is a lot more than that.

Utica is an easy bus trip from every team in the Eastern Conference save for Charlotte. That means prospects spend less time traveling and more time working out, resting, and developing.
Virginia is an overnight trip for pretty much every team in the conference.

Having AHL southern teams isn't necessary and provides zero tangible benefits besides satisfying moronic imbeciles who look at dots on a map. Every southern NHL team can get prospects called up with every market being connected with easy non-stop flights if they need them at home, which really only happens a little more than 50% of the season because they're on the road far away from the Southeast for the rest of the season which makes the call-ups easy anyways.

Trading out teams for movement south makes almost no sense. That's why it hasn't happened. Believe it or not, the people running professional organizations know a little bit more about things than you do.

Without the condescension there buddy, it's not like the ECHL doesn't have strong markets in the South. If you have a farm team you don't want to travel all over the country to watch your farm team play, assess your players, and then waste travel expenses for callups when you have a venue that corresponds with your location..when Canucks moved from Utica to Abbotsford they became an outlier but it was a sensible move...Calgary followed. Vegas moved their farm team closer...How far away is Austin from any other market? So Mr. Condescension why can't the Florida teams move their farm teams into their backyard? If you have to, let the Devils have Syracuse, since Utica is an ECHL market let's be honest...man you really are something, like you know everything and nobody knows anything. Pure f'ing Genius you must think you are.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Without the condescension there buddy, it's not like the ECHL doesn't have strong markets in the South. If you have a farm team you don't want to travel all over the country to watch your farm team play, assess your players, and then waste travel expenses for callups when you have a venue that corresponds with your location..when Canucks moved from Utica to Abbotsford they became an outlier but it was a sensible move...Calgary followed. Vegas moved their farm team closer...How far away is Austin from any other market? So Mr. Condescension why can't the Florida teams move their farm teams into their backyard? If you have to, let the Devils have Syracuse, since Utica is an ECHL market let's be honest...man you really are something, like you know everything and nobody knows anything. Pure f'ing Genius you must think you are.

You're looking at it all wrong.

There are strong markets in the south. Jacksonville, Estero, and Orlando are all fantastic hockey markets with good support. However, that doesn't makes them a good candidate to host an AHL franchise.

Why can't they? Well, they can. But it doesn't make much sense to do so.

If your argument is shorter call-up times, there's daily direct flights which about the same amount of time as driving from most Florida ECHL markets.
If your argument is still shorter call-up times, NHL Florida teams are on the road *far away* from home for almost 50% of their schedule so that call-up is meeting them somewhere else other than Florida.

So shorter call-up times is a completely invalid argument.

If your argument is scouting your farm team and assessing players...very little of it is done in person by the parent club. There are daily scouting reports written by coaching staff and scouting staff watches games online. It is incredibly rare for a parent club to be watching their own AHL team in person even when the parent club is located within driving distance. No NHL GM is spending any appreciable amount of time watching his AHL club play in person.

So scouting is a completely invalid argument.

The fan support and all of that is nice. But the AHL is a development league. It isn't about making boatloads of (potential) money.

I go back again to the travel. BriseBois is not looking at Estero or Orlando or Jacksonville for his AHL club. He wants it in Syracuse. He wants his prospects sleeping in their bed most nights and spending less time on the bus. Why the heck would he exchange his AHL team's longest trip to be almost as close as their closest trip?

Vegas moved their farm team closer and got significantly better travel than if they were in San Antonio. Calgary only moved out of Stockton due to the incompetence of management and burning the market or else they would likely still be there.

I am not a genius and I am definitely not the smartest person here. But it doesn't take a genius to see what you can't see.

 

[voyageur]

You're looking at it all wrong.

There are strong markets in the south. Jacksonville, Estero, and Orlando are all fantastic hockey markets with good support. However, that doesn't makes them a good candidate to host an AHL franchise.

Why can't they? Well, they can. But it doesn't make much sense to do so.

If your argument is shorter call-up times, there's daily direct flights which about the same amount of time as driving from most Florida ECHL markets.
If your argument is still shorter call-up times, NHL Florida teams are on the road *far away* from home for almost 50% of their schedule so that call-up is meeting them somewhere else other than Florida.

So shorter call-up times is a completely invalid argument.

If your argument is scouting your farm team and assessing players...very little of it is done in person by the parent club. There are daily scouting reports written by coaching staff and scouting staff watches games online. It is incredibly rare for a parent club to be watching their own AHL team in person even when the parent club is located within driving distance. No NHL GM is spending any appreciable amount of time watching his AHL club play in person.

So scouting is a completely invalid argument.

The fan support and all of that is nice. But the AHL is a development league. It isn't about making boatloads of (potential) money.

I go back again to the travel. BriseBois is not looking at Estero or Orlando or Jacksonville for his AHL club. He wants it in Syracuse. He wants his prospects sleeping in their bed most nights and spending less time on the bus. Why the heck would he exchange his AHL team's longest trip to be almost as close as their closest trip?

Vegas moved their farm team closer and got significantly better travel than if they were in San Antonio. Calgary only moved out of Stockton due to the incompetence of management and burning the market or else they would likely still be there.

I am not a genius and I am definitely not the smartest person here. But it doesn't take a genius to see what you can't see.

Assistant GMs do the scouting generally. That's how it works for Heisinger here in Winnipeg...

I see your point...but it does seem odd that the only teams that are precluded from having teams in their backyard are the ones in the South...everybody is closer to home, right? For some reason, and I am sure expenses are one of them.

The AHL operates with a flex schedule so that it gets more matchups that are desirable for its clubs...I believe when there were 2 Texas teams they played each other 12 times a year. Same would apply to any Florida teams, and then Charlotte is not an outlier. I still think it's a strange way to operate when you talk about growing the game you have markets in the ECHL that draw better than those in the A, which mitigates operating costs, but there is still that Northeast mentality.

It doesn't make as much sense as you claim it does.

 

[axecrew]

Assistant GMs do the scouting generally. That's how it works for Heisinger here in Winnipeg...

I see your point...but it does seem odd that the only teams that are precluded from having teams in their backyard are the ones in the South...everybody is closer to home, right? For some reason, and I am sure expenses are one of them.

The AHL operates with a flex schedule so that it gets more matchups that are desirable for its clubs...I believe when there were 2 Texas teams they played each other 12 times a year. Same would apply to any Florida teams, and then Charlotte is not an outlier. I still think it's a strange way to operate when you talk about growing the game you have markets in the ECHL that draw better than those in the A, which mitigates operating costs, but there is still that Northeast mentality.

It doesn't make as much sense as you claim it does.

In Chicago it's not only the asst gm...but during the first affiliation Carolina scouts and/or developmental guys were taking in a large majority of the home games during the regular season and ALL of the playoff games.
This flex schedule you speak of...not sure what exactly that is but your example of texas really doesnt do a very good job of holding up your argument. Chicago is about as far away from the south as you can get and yet still plays Milwaukee and Rockford 12 times each...Iowa and Grand Rapids I think 8 times as well as Manitoba and Texas. So as you can see it hasn't a single thing to do with the location of the team in the south but more about what the teams want.

 

[voyageur]

In Chicago it's not only the asst gm...but during the first affiliation Carolina scouts and/or developmental guys were taking in a large majority of the home games during the regular season and ALL of the playoff games.
This flex schedule you speak of...not sure what exactly that is but your example of texas really doesnt do a very good job of holding up your argument. Chicago is about as far away from the south as you can get and yet still plays Milwaukee and Rockford 12 times each...Iowa and Grand Rapids I think 8 times as well as Manitoba and Texas. So as you can see it hasn't a single thing to do with the location of the team in the south but more about what the teams want.

Yes that sounds right. It really depends on team preferences and rivalries...that's why MB plays all the Canadian teams but Chicago doesn't play Laval or Toronto but might play Calgary or Abbotsford 4 times in a season...I imagine if the AHL grew a Southern presence they might get Texas on their schedule, for travel reasons.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Assistant GMs do the scouting generally. That's how it works for Heisinger here in Winnipeg...

I see your point...but it does seem odd that the only teams that are precluded from having teams in their backyard are the ones in the South...everybody is closer to home, right? For some reason, and I am sure expenses are one of them.

The AHL operates with a flex schedule so that it gets more matchups that are desirable for its clubs...I believe when there were 2 Texas teams they played each other 12 times a year. Same would apply to any Florida teams, and then Charlotte is not an outlier. I still think it's a strange way to operate when you talk about growing the game you have markets in the ECHL that draw better than those in the A, which mitigates operating costs, but there is still that Northeast mentality.

It doesn't make as much sense as you claim it does.

In Winnipeg it might be different, but it is almost exclusively scouting staff across the league as @axecrew can attest to.

There are other teams without their AHL team in their backyard. Edmonton, St. Louis, Carolina, Milwaukee, Seattle... so it certainly isn't only the Southern teams.

Your point on the supposed flex schedule functionality also doesn't hold up to scrutiny as axecrew also points out.

Charlotte is still an outlier with both of Florida's teams in Jacksonville/Orlando/Estero. They require a flight or a long bus trip. So now you have multiple teams on an island instead of just Charlotte. So that doesn't hold up to closer scrutiny.

You talk of mitigating operating costs... requiring a flight or an insanely long bus trip for *every single away game* balloons costs far more than whatever you would get in increased ticket revenue.

Let's go down the rabbit hole and say let's say you move Syracuse to Jacksonville. You're making the assumption Jacksonville is going to maintain their attendance at 8500/game. You really think people in Jacksonville want to watch hockey in the same numbers with increased ticket prices from going up to the AHL, when the closest team is Charlotte and then after that it's Hershey? Even if you had Orlando, adding one team doesn't change my point. They are regularly playing teams nowhere near them and ones no one cares about. Their current longest ECHL divisional matchup is comparable to their second closest AHL opponent and that's if you move Florida and Tampa's affiliate closer. Attendance won't hold steady, even if they're affiliated with a nearby team. Fans don't care about how close their affiliate is. Coachella Valley, Springfield, there are plenty of other examples of there being no correlation between geographic proximity to NHL affiliate and increased attendance.

And let's say hypothetically it does hold steady. If so, 8500 per night. Coach buses are roughly $2000 per day if you want to do all bus trips, which you won't with your third closest team in the best case scenario being in Hershey. Chartered jets for pro hockey teams nowadays start at $7500 per hour. So 8500 in attendance, something way higher than you would even be able to draw, wouldn't be enough to offset your travel costs.

"Growing the game" means getting butts in seats, increasing interest in hockey, and getting more kids playing. That is sometimes inherently incongruent with swapping leagues where it doesn't make sense. It is completely incongruent in this case.

It makes perfect sense because of this: it is a development league. The whole point of the AHL is to develop prospects. Nothing more. And to do that, you need to minimize travel because there is beyond enough definitive evidence to show players do better when they spend less time on the road and more time in the gym, on the ice, and sleeping in their own beds.

 

[voyageur]

In Winnipeg it might be different, but it is almost exclusively scouting staff across the league as @axecrew can attest to.

There are other teams without their AHL team in their backyard. Edmonton, St. Louis, Carolina, Milwaukee, Seattle... so it certainly isn't only the Southern teams.

Your point on the supposed flex schedule functionality also doesn't hold up to scrutiny as axecrew also points out.

Charlotte is still an outlier with both of Florida's teams in Jacksonville/Orlando/Estero. They require a flight or a long bus trip. So now you have multiple teams on an island instead of just Charlotte. So that doesn't hold up to closer scrutiny.

You talk of mitigating operating costs... requiring a flight or an insanely long bus trip for *every single away game* balloons costs far more than whatever you would get in increased ticket revenue.

Let's go down the rabbit hole and say let's say you move Syracuse to Jacksonville. You're making the assumption Jacksonville is going to maintain their attendance at 8500/game. You really think people in Jacksonville want to watch hockey in the same numbers with increased ticket prices from going up to the AHL, when the closest team is Charlotte and then after that it's Hershey? Even if you had Orlando, adding one team doesn't change my point. They are regularly playing teams nowhere near them and ones no one cares about. Their current longest ECHL divisional matchup is comparable to their second closest AHL opponent and that's if you move Florida and Tampa's affiliate closer. Attendance won't hold steady, even if they're affiliated with a nearby team. Fans don't care about how close their affiliate is. Coachella Valley, Springfield, there are plenty of other examples of there being no correlation between geographic proximity to NHL affiliate and increased attendance.

And let's say hypothetically it does hold steady. If so, 8500 per night. Coach buses are roughly $2000 per day if you want to do all bus trips, which you won't with your third closest team in the best case scenario being in Hershey. Chartered jets for pro hockey teams nowadays start at $7500 per hour. So 8500 in attendance, something way higher than you would even be able to draw, wouldn't be enough to offset your travel costs.

"Growing the game" means getting butts in seats, increasing interest in hockey, and getting more kids playing. That is sometimes inherently incongruent with swapping leagues where it doesn't make sense. It is completely incongruent in this case.

It makes perfect sense because of this: it is a development league. The whole point of the AHL is to develop prospects. Nothing more. And to do that, you need to minimize travel because there is beyond enough definitive evidence to show players do better when they spend less time on the road and more time in the gym, on the ice, and sleeping in their own beds.

Ok so explain to me with your fundamental logic how teams like Iowa Manitoba Austin Colorado Tuscon, Abbotsford operate? Literally their travel is more than anything you can throw at Charlotte? For your logic to work teams would all have to be concentrated in California and the Northeastern/Midwestern U.S...is that how the AHL looks right now? No? Why do you think all these NHL teams moved their affiliates closer to home? Minus St.Louis, Carolina, Tampa, Edmonton, who would have the most travel if they did? And Nashville has had a good relationship with Milwaukee. Somebody has to be in Springfield that's a given...

Please explain. How operating costs and travel costs that all these teams must endure are so difficult that Florida teams could never achieve them?

Or let's just let this one go for the sake of not prolonging the discussion.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Ok so explain to me with your fundamental logic how teams like Iowa Manitoba Austin Colorado Tuscon, Abbotsford operate? Literally their travel is more than anything you can throw at Charlotte? For your logic to work teams would all have to be concentrated in California and the Northeastern/Midwestern U.S...is that how the AHL looks right now? No? Why do you think all these NHL teams moved their affiliates closer to home? Minus St.Louis, Carolina, Tampa, Edmonton, who would have the most travel if they did? And Nashville has had a good relationship with Milwaukee. Somebody has to be in Springfield that's a given...

Please explain. How operating costs and travel costs that all these teams must endure are so difficult that Florida teams could never achieve them?

Or let's just let this one go for the sake of not prolonging the discussion.

Iowa: fairly reasonable bus trips. Most of their divisional trips are 5-6 hours away by bus. That's pretty reasonable.

Manitoba: look up how desperate they were and still kinda are to move them out of Winnipeg to somewhere else. Thunder Bay was the last thing on their radar, but that arena deal fell through. They eat travel costs on them, but save some money by having them play at a facility which they own. So the team isn't unsustainably hemorrhaging money because of this factor.

Tucson: still pretty easy driving distance to almost the entire Pacific Division.

Colorado and Abbotsford: definitely outlier teams that find ways to make it. They are the exceptions rather than the rules.

Given the parameters of operating and travel costs, it is difficult and they could certainly endure them. I never said it was impossible. I only said it was difficult enough that it didn't make any sense to do so at this point in time.

You still haven't listed off any tangible benefits of having AHL teams in Florida. Your assertions of improved scouting, call-up times, and marketing were shown by myself and others to be invalid or flat out incorrect. What benefit does Tampa have in buying the Crunch and moving them to Estero after those three things were proved to be inconsequential. It serves to fill a nonexistence need until you can prove your thus far invalid points on scouting, call up times, and marketing or bring up other points.

 

[axecrew]

Ok so explain to me with your fundamental logic how teams like Iowa Manitoba Austin Colorado Tuscon, Abbotsford operate? Literally their travel is more than anything you can throw at Charlotte? For your logic to work teams would all have to be concentrated in California and the Northeastern/Midwestern U.S...is that how the AHL looks right now? No? Why do you think all these NHL teams moved their affiliates closer to home? Minus St.Louis, Carolina, Tampa, Edmonton, who would have the most travel if they did? And Nashville has had a good relationship with Milwaukee. Somebody has to be in Springfield that's a given...

Please explain. How operating costs and travel costs that all these teams must endure are so difficult that Florida teams could never achieve them?

Or let's just let this one go for the sake of not prolonging the discussion.

What do all of the teams you listed have in common?? They are ALL owned by the NHL counterpart thus their expenses are simply a cost of doing business to the NHL team. The point I think Barclay is trying to make is that yes while it would benefit the NHL teams in florida to move their ahl club down there ...it would also add a ridiculous amount of travel and travel cost to their ahl teams. The whole idea of having your affiliate close has nothing to do with what you mentioned and everything to do with having your prospects spend less time traveling and more time practicing and sleeping in their own beds. This is why you see most ahl teams clustered in sections of the country...also why the only way the Pacific division mutiny worked was all the western NHL teams had to agree to move out there and even then it took Van. years to do it. I can promise you not a single NHL team is wanting their affiliate closer to make call ups easier...with direct flights from just about every AHL city to just about every NHL city its not an issue. Not too mention most teams notify their ahl club of the call up the day before under most circumstances

 

[voyageur]

Iowa: fairly reasonable bus trips. Most of their divisional trips are 5-6 hours away by bus. That's pretty reasonable.

Manitoba: look up how desperate they were and still kinda are to move them out of Winnipeg to somewhere else. Thunder Bay was the last thing on their radar, but that arena deal fell through. They eat travel costs on them, but save some money by having them play at a facility which they own. So the team isn't unsustainably hemorrhaging money because of this factor.

Tucson: still pretty easy driving distance to almost the entire Pacific Division.

Colorado and Abbotsford: definitely outlier teams that find ways to make it. They are the exceptions rather than the rules.

Given the parameters of operating and travel costs, it is difficult and they could certainly endure them. I never said it was impossible. I only said it was difficult enough that it didn't make any sense to do so at this point in time.

You still haven't listed off any tangible benefits of having AHL teams in Florida. Your assertions of improved scouting, call-up times, and marketing were shown by myself and others to be invalid or flat out incorrect. What benefit does Tampa have in buying the Crunch and moving them to Estero after those three things were proved to be inconsequential. It serves to fill a nonexistence need until you can prove your thus far invalid points on scouting, call up times, and marketing or bring up other points.

You math is wrong on travel by a lot..but I am done here...i made my point...you made yours...no sense continuing a circular argument

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

You math is wrong on travel by a lot..but I am done here...i made my point...you made yours...no sense continuing a circular argument

Please point out which one(s) where I have gotten my math wrong. Your points have been collectively disproven by committee and mine have been backed up by others.

 

[voyageur]

Please point out which one(s) where I have gotten my math wrong. Your points have been collectively disproven by committee and mine have been backed up by others.

Seriously dude, Iowa to MB or Texas or Grand Rapids is how far?

Tuscon is 11 hours from San Jose, Bakersfield, Colorado Springs. Then there is Abbotsford and Calgary.

Just stop trying to sound like you have the answers, maybe some of the points you had were valid, but you really ignored the questions like why Austin works but Florida can't...Just some Northeastern good sleep bullshit...

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Seriously dude, Iowa to MB or Texas or Grand Rapids is how far?

Tuscon is 11 hours from San Jose, Bakersfield, Colorado Springs. Then there is Abbotsford and Calgary.

Just stop trying to sound like you have the answers, maybe some of the points you had were valid, but you really ignored the questions like why Austin works but Florida can't...Just some Northeastern good sleep bullshit...

Austin works because they are owned by their NHL affiliate. Neither Tampa or Florida have every expressed interest in owning their affiliate, especially in the current day and age where almost everyone does when they have the opportunity to. Just like Axecrew pointed out. Literally read out what everyone has already posted again on this thread since you obviously didn't understand any of it the first time.

Iowa is easy driving distance to most of their division. There are a few outliers, but most of their division is an easy bus trip which makes it sustainable. Des Moines to Grand Rapids is about 7 hours which is usually done as part of their trip to Chicago/Rockford is they're not making 7 hours straight. that leaves two long trips in their division. That's pretty reasonable.

Tucson's only far divisional trips are San José, Abbotsford, Colorado. Bakersfield is borderline. In the 10 team Pacific Division, that means most of their division is within bus tripping distance.

I don't have all the answers. And no one has every said that Florida couldn't work. For like the third time, no one here has said that. What everyone has said is that it doesn't make much sense...

Stop putting words in people's mouths, especially when you most of the stuff you're spewing out isn't valid at all.