Crosby doesn't get enough credit as a goal scorer.
He's going to have an insane goal scoring season soon. I can see him being a 1 goal a game guy. Easily 60+, and might even reach closer to 70-80. Maybe next yr if he can stay healthy
Adam Oates would be tearing up today's NHL.
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Crosby doesn't get enough credit as a goal scorer.
He's going to have an insane goal scoring season soon. I can see him being a 1 goal a game guy. Easily 60+, and might even reach closer to 70-80. Maybe next yr if he can stay healthy
Let's be serious, Crosby would've won the Richard in 2011 had he not missed half the season.
Do you disagree?
Bure
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ThirdManIn
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HFBoard people love to push falsehoods. Your post is so far from fact, it's not funny.
I guess Hull's 2 50 and 2 40 plus goal seasons w/o Oates was an hoax never mind only 114 of Neely's 395 goals came with Oates on the Bruins; that doesn't take into account if Oates had anything to due with the goals.
So tell me, how do you account for the other 3/4 of Neely's goals occurring without Oates on the Bruins?
Sure Oates would be skating circles around those guys and elude all of the increased number of hits with his world class skating...errr no he wouldn't.
His skating would hold him back, how much it's hard to know.
vadim sharifijanov
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yep. brett hull put up 45 ES goals in 1990 playing mostly with peter zezel at even strength. he had oates on the PP, and cleaned up there too, breaking kurri's record for goals by a winger. oates got the most out of him, but he's certainly still a hall of famer if the blues had never traded bernie federko.
and neely, the guy put up two top three goal seasons with craig janney. he also has the 10th most goals in one playoff year, again with janney on his wing. maybe the 50 in 50 with oates puts neely over the top, but to me the devastating pre-samuelsson neely is the meat of his HHOF argument, and that's not the neely that oates centered.
---
but the three 50 goal scorers thing: mario came awfully close. kevin stevens and jagr hit that mark. rob brown (49) came awfully close. and, obviously it's unfair to comapre oates to mario, but it's pretty crazy to think that mario got three different wingers to 49+ goals while scoring 69+ goals himself.
gilmour, incidentally, centered joe mullen's 50 goal year, and one and a half of andreychuk's. he also, i'm pretty sure, skated with fleury at least part of the year fleury hit 50.
and to bring up the name of craig janney again, he centered neely to 50 goal years, as well as at least one of shanahan's 50 goal years. some say he centered one of hull's 50 goal years after oates left, but i'm not so sure about that. my memory of those years is hull on the first line and the "shanny and janney" line behind him. but maybe they stacked the first line one of those years? does anyone remember those plager/berry blues more clearly than i do?
--
back on topic:
as for contemporary comparables, crosby is out of oates' league. to imagine oates in a post-DPE league, i'd look at the non-physical playmakers whose games made huge leaps in '06. post-second lockout, you could imagine oates putting together a year like 2010 henrik sedin. basically, look at marc savard's three straight top 3 assist finishes and three top 10 points finishes and oates would be a really rich man's version of that. he'd definitely challenge for art rosses, and maybe he even wins one or two, but likely not in years that crosby, ovechkin, and even malkin are at their best.
vadim sharifijanov
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re: my last post, skating hasn't seemed to hurt henrik sedin or marc savard-- or at least it didn't in their best post-lockout years.
Yeah, without 50 in 50 Neely NEVER makes the HHOF period. A lot of players posted much better numbers and never made it. I know he reinvented the PF position but without the ring, major awards AND 50 and 50, sorry, no HHoF.
Speaking of Hull, without Oates he would be a Stamkos/Heatley-mix with longevity. Probably would make HHOF on that alone, but with a pretty long waiting list like Dino Ciccareli. With Oates he is the guy who came closest to Gretzky's goal record.
Zezel had 47 assists that year, yet you want Hull to have scored most of his 45 ES from him. Its too long ago for me to remember exactly as I just started watching NHL around 1990, but Oates played as much ES with Hull as did Zezel that year. And the year after, with Zezel gone, Hulls numbers exploded completely.
Speaking of Janney, this guy was no slouch either. He was on level of Marc Savard for me. Oates had roughly 40-50% more points centering the same players, so considering Savard being a 90-point player now, Oates could've been around 120 points for a couple of times in modern age, scoring close to 100 assists like JumboJoe.
Oates is not just another good center like Savard or Thornton. Oates is a top5 set-up guy all time.
Evincar
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I wouldnt call Crosby a dominant defensive zone player unlike youre talking about faceoffs. No one complains about him floating because he doesnt do it that often like other top players.
I love how apparently every other star player from the past would be tearing it up today, yet the goal-scoring is almost as low as it was in the DPE. Oates would be what he was, one of the best playmakers in the league. He certainly wouldn't touch his numbers from the early 90's.
NHL average gpg since 1939:
http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx
NHL average gpg since 1939:
http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx
billybudd
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Oates played absolutely nothing like Crosby did.
And no, he wouldn't be tearing up today's NHL (at least, any more than he did his own). Today's NHL is about speed, speed, speed. Oates didn't have much of that.
Trying to think of a playmaker his size, with his lack of mobility (relative other all-star type players), that's had a lot of success post 2005. I guess Savard would be the closest, but Savard had an additional coat of slickness that Oates just didn't.
And no, he wouldn't be tearing up today's NHL (at least, any more than he did his own). Today's NHL is about speed, speed, speed. Oates didn't have much of that.
Trying to think of a playmaker his size, with his lack of mobility (relative other all-star type players), that's had a lot of success post 2005. I guess Savard would be the closest, but Savard had an additional coat of slickness that Oates just didn't.
Truth be told Sedin's skating has gotten much better in their time in the NHL, something that is quite rare.
Was Oates really that much more "talented" than Savard though? and Marc was certainly more gritty as well.
There are just too many variables to speculate on how a guy like Oates would do today, suffice to say it would be much less than in his peak.
The weird thing about Oates is that he has his peak year of 142 points at the age of 30. The year before he has 99, the year after 112.
His 142 point year includes the fact that Neely only played 13 games and Bourque had a good offensive year but not his best. Oates even propelled a young Joe Juneau to 102 points before he fell back to earth.
Now if Oates could bottle the magic of that year then he might do quite well today, but like I said it was a career year for him.
Big Phil
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He'd be doing more of the same as what he did when he played. You know, he only retired in 2004. Is he a guy who really qualifies as someone who would be tearing it up "in today's league". He led the NHL in assists as late as 2002. In fact, he led the NHL in assists in 1993, 2001 and 2002. Those were different scoring eras and he didn't seem to have a problem doing it then.
I will say one thing about Oates, Crosby is certainly the better player because he is a much bigger threat to score goals, but there is a very valid argument that Oates would be the best playmaker in the game today. Ask Hull, Bondra, Neely, Juneau and Chris Simon. I like what Crosby is doing by having a guy like Kunitz tear up the NHL and threaten Stamkos' goal scoring crown because that is exactly what a truly great set up man is capable of and what we saw Oates do so many times.
He'd be fine in the league today. Players who were lesser playmakers than him did fine such as Marc Savard.
I will say one thing about Oates, Crosby is certainly the better player because he is a much bigger threat to score goals, but there is a very valid argument that Oates would be the best playmaker in the game today. Ask Hull, Bondra, Neely, Juneau and Chris Simon. I like what Crosby is doing by having a guy like Kunitz tear up the NHL and threaten Stamkos' goal scoring crown because that is exactly what a truly great set up man is capable of and what we saw Oates do so many times.
He'd be fine in the league today. Players who were lesser playmakers than him did fine such as Marc Savard.
aemoreira1981
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I'm not so sure that I can dismiss the OP out of hand---Oates was pretty consistent for many years in the assist category and was never a true goal scorer, but he has the most assists ever for a draft-eligible player who was never drafted.
(Related: why did Adam Oates go undrafted?)
(Related: why did Adam Oates go undrafted?)
Say what? By just saying that, it's clear you never watched OT play. And if you come back with "yes I did" ,I wouldn't believe you. Oates by some was considered the best playmaker/passer of his time, some say over Gretz himself but somehow you just regulated him below Savard.
This site drives me nuts.
Different times, not everything was/is or will be like it is now. It's hard but you really have to take off your 2013 eye glasses sometimes when looking back.
But I can say he was a well sought after college player, after he got a couple of years of play in. He had a dominate college career.
billybudd
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Say what? By just saying that, it's clear you never watched OT play. And if you come back with "yes I did" ,I wouldn't believe you. Oates by some was considered the best playmaker/passer of his time, some say over Gretz himself but somehow you just regulated him below Savard.
This site drives me nuts.
I didn't "regulate" Oates below anybody. I said Savard's slickness let him overcome size and succeed in an era that's friendly to guys who had a gear he didn't.
What you're saying is "slicker than Savard" is an accurate description of Oates. And you're questioning whether I've seen these players?
Incidentally, if anyone actually said Oates was the best playmaker of his time (I'm inclined to think you just made that up), that person was either lying, one of his relatives or a colossal fool.
Here's a list, has OT at 3
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=641724
Dan Rosen:
https://twitter.com/drosennhl/status/265514971205627904
http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=644999&navid=DL|NHL|home
Here's an entire list of people bringing up the question:
http://blues.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=645090
Mostly and if you read what I wrote, have him behind Wayne, as I used "some". But some do have him as the greatest passers.
Again, you never watched him so please don't make opinions like they are facts.
vadim sharifijanov
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there was a thread about who assisted on how many of hull's goals during his three 70 goal years. here's the relevant part:
so you're right, oates was with hull at ES for part of the year. but while oates did assist on more of hull's ES goals than zezel did, i think, being that oates was the far superior playmaker, it doesn't necessarily indicate how much either guy (or anyone else) centered hull. for instance, it would be very easy to imagine a scenario where zezel and a bunch of other guys who weren't oates centered hull for 55-60 games, with most of the assists divided between zezel, momesso, and puck-moving defensemen like paul cavallini and jeff brown. i mean, it's not outside the realm of possibility that oates got those 14 ES assists in 20-25 games, right? i mean, it's adam oates, and he had some kind of weird ESP with hull.
my reason for suspecting something along these lines is that hull himself has said on numerous occasions that zezel was his center that year. he wrote in his autobiography, "you don't score 72 goals without a great center like peter zezel." (i haven't even seen that book in 20 years, so this is remembered from a long time ago, but still i'm reasonably certain that it's pretty accurate because it surprised me too, reading that during the '91 season when oates and hull tore the league a new one together.)
a real quote from hull:
source: http://blog.mlive.com/snapshots/2009/11/former_red_wing_brett_hulls_pr.html
another quasi-quote from hull:
source: http://www.insidestl.com/insideSTLc...leView/articleId/1745/Where-are-they-now.aspx
from the HHOF website:
source: http://www.hhof.com/htmlSpotlight/spot_oneononep200901.shtml
none of this is conclusive, obviously. still, oates factored on a shockingly low percentage of hull's 72 goals that year, and the point is hull may never have hit 50 in 50, or even 70 goals, without oates, but he is almost certainly a hall of famer with or without #12.
here's that whole thread, which has a lot of other good info in it: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=972131
also, i don't think oates was as good as gretzky or mario during his run of 100 point years. but i think he was closer than any of their other contemporaries were. i mean, the mere fact that he was mentioned in the same breath as them as a playmaker (which to my knowledge trottier, stastny, savard, yzerman, jagr, forsberg, etc. all never were) says a lot about how great oates was.
i compared him to henrik sedin earlier in this thread. what i meant by that is that i could see oates putting together an art ross/MVP year in the post-lockout NHL, even with his less than ideal speed. i think, purely as a playmaker, oates is superior to henrik.
EDIT:
but one last thing about oates: to me the most astonishing adam oates stat remains his 45 goals in 1993. inflated scoring year or not, it's hard to believe adam oates ever scored that many goals in a year.
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Big Phil
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He was a late bloomer. He was sort of like Martin St. Louis, Ed Belfour or Curtis Joseph where he was never drafted, went the college route and eventually made some noise and was signed by an NHL team. I guess it is another reason why you can't always depend on the draft. But if I were to venture a guess I would say that scouts didn't notice him because he wasn't physical, big or a player with a heavy shot. His playmaking skills may have improved as he aged so maybe he just didn't stand out at that time. Hard to believe though
You gotta be a fool to think otherwise. This is the guy who lead the league in assists for BOTH of his 38 and 39 years old seasons. Savard was one of my favorite players but he wasnt close to Oates, if you have seen both of them play. The absolute numbers dont matter, his 142 season doesnt matter, what matters is that he was not among the best, he was THE best playmaker in the NHL at a very late stage in his career. The guy made Chris ****ing Simon score 29 goals on the top of the lowscoring era.
And yes, he was absolutely a top5 playmaker of all time. For me personally even top3.
Thank you for the insightful post. I really think that Hull is full of **** though. Maybe he has some sort of a grudge against Oates for mentioning specifically Zezel as being the reason for that season. Or maybe it sounds bad without a context and he just wanted to acknowledge some other players having part on his top seasons.
billybudd
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So your proof that "some" people think he "was the greatest passer of his era" is a series of links and quotes in which nobody says that?
In other words, you pulled that out of your ass just as I suspected.
And if you're going to keep telling me "I never watched" Oates play, I would like you to explain, in detail, why you think "slickness" is a term that's better applied to Oates' game than Savard's.
