Adam Graves

[Maximus]

Had a little spare time before I head out to see a band with some friends and maybe I'm the only one around here but I had never seen his "number 9 goes up to the rafters" video. So I said to myself if I get a spare hour, I'm heading to Youtube and I'm going to watch it.

I must admit that I needed a couple of tissues to dry the eyes as it was quite emotional just like the Messier,Leetch and Richter ceremonies were and which I had seen. The Sopranos cast being there was kind of kool as well. Here's my question and why I'm even posting a thread on this subject of Graves and I kind of feel even guilty about raising this seeing this is an all time great Ranger.

Graves was instrumental to us winning that Cup not a doubt about it. He was a great teamate. He had a couple of tremendously productive season. He was a fan favorite....we all loved Gravesy. The things he did off the ice were, you can't even put it in words how great a person he is.

That all said, was he good enough as a player to have gotten his # raised to the rafters? I look at his #'s and an average season for Adam as a Ranger was 28-22-50. All the other Rangers #'s in the rafters(Leetch,Gilbert,Howell,Bathgate,Messier,Leetch,Richter) are either in the HOF or at least close to being considered. Graves as great a guy as he was and is, is not even close to being HOF worthy. And to be honest if you look back, there are plenty of Rangers who had great careers as Rangers who will never have their #'s retired and rasised to the rafters. A few greats for me that come to mind is Ron Greshner, Walt Tkachuk. 16 of the great Jean Ratelle's 22 years in hockey was spent with us while he was scoring at a point per game and yet his #19 isn't up in the rafters and it absolutely should be considering what he did for our franchise.

So here we have Graves up in the rafters and I'm not so much as arguing that it shouldn't be but more that don't you guys think an exception to the rule of having superlative #'s was made for Gravesy and he's up in the rafters just as much for what he did off the ice than what he did on it. Cause if you look merely at his #'s, they certainly aren't "retire your #" type numbers that's for sure.

Also why isn't a guy like Ratelle up in the rafters? He was as important to the Rangers as Gilbert ever was. It wasn't his fault he got dealt to Boston and spent his last 6 years there. When I think of Ratelle, I think of him as a Ranger and I'd bet most hockey observers feel the same way. And his #'s blow away Graves. As I said Greshner is another guy who if Graves is up there, Gresh should be up there as well. He has great #'s and he spent his whole career here and was an institution in NY when he was here.

I don't know, like I said I love Graves and everything he did for us to help win a Cup. He's a great guy off the ice for the things he does for the Garden of Dreams charity. But let's be honest, if he deserves to be up in the rafters, so does a Ratelle and a Greshner and even a Tkachuk who had very solid #'s as a Ranger and who also spent his whole career here. Do you guys agree that an exception was made for Graves and that's why he's up there?

 

[egelband]

I would say the retired number is much more about the things Graves is known for. It's not necessarily numbers-dependent. It's also reasonable to factor-in post-playing-career value. Which is another feather in Graves cap. He's just a Ranger through and through. Not a HoFer, indeed, but a Ranger immortal, so to speak.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

My answers:

1) Retiring Graves' number shows that the powers that be put stock into more than just on-ice production.

2) Ratelle is not retired because at this point because a Ratelle night would not be a draw for fans.

 

[NYRFAN218]

My answers:

1) Retiring Graves' number shows that the powers that be put stock into more than just on-ice production.

2) Ratelle is not retired because at this point because a Ratelle night would not be a draw for fans.

1) For sure because his on ice production alone was absolutely not worthy of a number retirement. Even with the off ice stuff I'm not sure I fully agree with it but I get it. I also think number retirements should be held to the highest of standards which is why I probably wouldn't have retired his.

2) Ratelle should be retired but I generally agree with that sentiment though they did go ahead and retire Howell and Bathgate well after the fact. I felt bad for both of those guys though that they both had their numbers retired and you could see during the ceremony the building just half full. Both of them deserved better.

 

[Maximus]

I would say the retired number is much more about the things Graves is known for. It's not necessarily numbers-dependent. It's also reasonable to factor-in post-playing-career value. Which is another feather in Graves cap. He's just a Ranger through and through. Not a HoFer, indeed, but a Ranger immortal, so to speak.

Totally agree and I said so in my comments. One would think 70% of the reason Graves is up in the rafters is due to his off ice contributions as they are legendary and around 30% for this on ice production. He was a good player for sure. Don't recall many players who's numbers are up in the rafters in the entire league more due to their "aura" and off ice contributions than Graves. Like I said originally not arguing the fact he's up there. Just stating it's very rare that a guy gets his number retired and not cause of his production....that's all.

 

[Maximus]

My answers:

1) Retiring Graves' number shows that the powers that be put stock into more than just on-ice production.

2) Ratelle is not retired because at this point because a Ratelle night would not be a draw for fans.

Your probably right on both accounts. Ratelle's # should have been retired decades ago tho when he was still relevant in many Rangers minds. Heck the guy spent most of his career with us and is in the hockey HOF and yet he can't have his # retired here....

That IMO is a travesty. He truly is one of the greatest Rangers of all time and even it won't draw fans, he should still be acknowledged and have his # up in the rafters. Greshner as well as I said earlier should be up there.

 

[Crease]

The Rangers are pretty bad when it comes to the retired numbers. It actually irks me and few things do.

 

[Maximus]

The Rangers are pretty bad when it comes to the retired numbers. It actually irks me and few things do.

It irks me to no end that Ratelle isn't up there. I can live with Greshner not being up there tho he deserves too be up there but Ratelle is a no brainer. I mean no offense to Graves who I love love love. But for him to be up there and Ratelle not too be, it's disgraceful.

In fact Ratelle was as productive if not more so than Gilbert was when he was a Ranger. But yeah, that irks me to no end. And Greshner it can be argued is the 4th best Ranger dman ever behind Harry Howell, Brad Park and of course Leetch. He should be up there as much as Graves is.

What specifically irks you Crease in how the Rangers handle the retired #'s stuff? Just curious. Do you also agree Ratelle should definitely be up there and even Gresh?

 

[Maximus]

It irks me so much that I'm typing this **** while I'm watching this band who really aren't that great hence me typing away...lol

 

[Crease]

They are underinclusive (despite Graves), totally ignoring the pre-WWII giants Bill Cook, Ching Johnson, and Frank Boucher. Also, Graves never should have been able to wear 9, let alone have his retired. It was a $$ grab. They got around to retiring Bathgate (and Howell) only after Graves was announced and people started pointing out how ridiculous it was.

 

[Maximus]

They are underinclusive (despite Graves), totally ignoring the pre-WWII giants Bill Cook, Ching Johnson, and Frank Boucher. Also, Graves never should have been able to wear 9, let alone have his retired. It was a $$ grab. They got around to retiring Bathgate (and Howell) only after Graves was announced and people started pointing out how ridiculous it was.

Totally agree about Graves should never have been able to wear the #9 of Bathgate who it can be argued is the 3rd best fwd in Ranger history behind Ratelle and Gilbert. And they do seem to ignore some of those great old timers of yesteryear.

What's your thoughts on Ratelle? He's a no brainer...yes? Here's the thing about him. He's 76 years old now. Who knows how much time he has left. Rangers need to honor him. He's a hockey hall of famer for cripes sake. Point a game guy with us for 16 years. How on gods green earth is this guy's #19 not up in the rafters with the rest of the Ranger greats?

The organization has already set the precedent when they retired Bathgate and Howell long after they should have been put up there. So tho it might not bring in big bucks, there are people like me and thousands of others who saw him play who would absolutely buy a ticket to see Ratelle get his just due and be put up there with the greats. Rangers need to do the right thing as Ratelle isn't getting any younger.

 

[Crease]

Ratelle should be up, yes. He was a better player than Graves and Richter. I know the latter two have a Cup and Graves twilights as Mother Teresa, but still. I'm surprised Howell and Bathgate didn't tell the organization to go **** themselves. Ratelle should.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I might be in the minority here, but they retired too many numbers in such a short period. In my opinion, Leetch and Richter should be up there but I am just not sure about Graves or Messier.

Sure, everyone loves Messier and the guarantee, and he was the captain bla bla bla. I just think jersey retirements should be exclusive to guys like Leetch, Gilbert etc. Lundqvist deserves it more than Messier

 

[Crease]

The only thing Richter has over Messier is longevity. Messier was much more important to the team and elite at his position. Richter is my favorite Ranger but I wouldn't have been offended if they didn't retire 35.

 

[Cassano]

Retired numbers for original 6 should only be reserved for HHOFers. Graves number up there lower standards.

 

[Maximus]

I might be in the minority here, but they retired too many numbers in such a short period. In my opinion, Leetch and Richter should be up there but I am just not sure about Graves or Messier.

Sure, everyone loves Messier and the guarantee, and he was the captain bla bla bla. I just think jersey retirements should be exclusive to guys like Leetch, Gilbert etc. Lundqvist deserves it more than Messier

Yeah it was if in a 3-4 year span they retired the big 4 of the '94 Cup team. Seems as if Ranger braintrust decided during that time, they were going to send a player pretty much per year up to the rafters. I really do feel guilty about it, as I said in my original post of the thread, but the more I look at Graves #'s, the less and less I think he should be up in the rafters. Yes he had a great 50 goal season but so did Vic Hadfield. 50 point average seasons just don't warrant it. Lundqvist is a lock to have his #30 up there and is a virtual lock to be inducted into a hockey HOF once he calls it quits.


Do any of you guys have a problem with Greshner's #4 eventually going up to the rafters? If you guys recall, he was Mr. Ranger for 10+ years and was very productive. And his off ice contributions were almost as public as Graves were. I truly believe he should be up there as well. Ratelle tho is the biggest travesty of them all and I hope and pray Rangers mngt corrects this egregious mistake.

 

[Bluenote13]

Don't really care either way but Graves:

Top 10 all time in Goals(only Ratelle and Gilbert ahead of him), points, PIMs, PP goals, Hat Tricks, and games played. And one of the few guys on these lists that won a Cup with the team.

Wouldn't you expect most organizations to honor someone with this resume?

 

[RangerBoy]

Ratelle got mad at the Rangers for trading him. Brooks wrote about it. Gorton knows Ratelle very well from the Bruins. Gorton invited Ratelle to attend the Rangers opening night ceremonies. The 90th anniversary. He couldn't make it. Brooks thinks the Rangers will retire Ratelle's number next season. The guy who traded him was fired not that long after the trade was made. I am sure other Rangers bosses have tried to make amends with Ratelle. I guess hockey was not a big business back in the 1970's.

 

[eco's bones]

Not that big on retiring Ratelle. Great player but to me he's just as much if not even mores a Bruin as he is a Ranger.

 

[NickyFotiu]

Id really like to see Ratelle this season and Gresh next season.. Its not only to honor the players but for their fans as well.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Not that big on retiring Ratelle. Great player but to me he's just as much if not even mores a Bruin as he is a Ranger.

Isn't Messier as much an Oiler as a Ranger?

 

[cwede]

personally, even(?especially?) being a Yankee fan as well, i think retired ##s are dumb and unnecessary

give a guy a banner and a plaque to honor his career and move on

I haven't forgotten Park, Tkaczuk, Gresch just because other guys wore their ##s

watch any college team and some freshman has the # of last year's senior,
even if he was an all-american or legend

yes the Graves # retirement was a great exception to the standard,
he was a very good player but also a great guy who was universally respected and brought the team respect
i would not have retired his number then, or now
but i do love him as a/the great Ranger wing of his time

 

[RangerBoy]

Jean Ratelle will not be at the Garden in body for the Rangers’ opener against the Islanders on Thursday, but the fabled No. 19 will be in the building in spirit, as the franchise celebrates its 90th anniversary with a pregame ceremony that will feature many of the best and brightest to skate on Broadway.

The news, though, is that the relationship between Ratelle, who turned 76 last Monday, and the organization that spawned him before that traumatic November day 41 years ago, when he was sent to the hated Bruins, is healthy. There is no breach between the parties.

Slap Shots has learned there is a longstanding friendship between Ratelle and Jeff Gorton, which developed during the general manager’s 15 years in Boston’s front office that preceded his move to New York in 2007.

And it was Gorton — who had received a congratulatory phone call from Ratelle upon being named Rangers GM in July 2015 — who, within the past couple of weeks, invited Ratelle to the opening night ceremonies, only to have Gentleman Jean — always the Rangers’ Beliveau — reply with regrets that it was not possible for him to be in New York this time.

http://nypost.com/2016/10/08/rangers-finally-have-made-peace-with-this-once-ousted-legend/

The organization retires Jean Ratelle’s No. 19 while also honoring Blueshirt immortals Bill Cook and Frank Boucher during 2017-18, the franchise’s 91st anniversary. Next up: recognition for Brad Park, Vic Hadfield and Ron Greschner.

http://nypost.com/2016/12/31/phil-jackson-bolts-greg-bird-explodes-and-more-2017-predictions/

 

[cwede]

Not that big on retiring Ratelle. Great player, but to me he's just as much, if not even more, a Bruin as he is a Ranger.

I cant buy this argument, maybe you started following NYR later in his career, maybe after '72?

Ratelle wasn't traded to the B's until he was 35

just as Ranger, Ratelle had 2 40 goal season, 5 more 30 goal seasons, and also 3 more 20 goal seasons

16 yrs NYR NHL 862 336 481 817
6 yrs BOS NHL 419 155 295 450
Career NHL 1281 491 776 1267
http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/r/ratelje01.html

 

[mrhockey193195]

This is why I wish the Rangers had a team HOF. You can honor players like Graves, Hadfield, Greschner, etc. in there without taking too many numbers out of circulation.

We're retiring so many numbers that it's losing it's meaning. Remember how monumental it was when Richter got his retired as the third player ever? The whole city stopped to watch. Now, no one cares.