Confirmed with Link: Adam Foote Named Head Coach of the Vancouver Canucks

[Attack Vector]

We gotta keep Derek Forbort happy too.

 

[I am toxic]

Yogi Svejkovsy

• Wouldn’t be surprised if he’s is back with the team for next season
• Great skills guy

Definitely great skills guy, but I thought he was in charge of the PP this past season, and although it was ranked what, 15th, it seemed underwhelming and static, and that is with a generational D

Would like to see him back, but something needs to be changed on how they approach the PP

As for assistant coaches (for the D), I would hope they interview Sven

 

[Bleach Clean]

So they ranked right beside Vancouver... so their are elite and we are not.... sure.

Assuming health what team had better 1-3 centre depth? I don't buy this argument at all. Should we have won the cup? Probably not, but were we good enough to be in the mix? Yep.

I look at results, and were they good enough to make the final if injuries had gone their way? Yep. Luck plays a large part in the sport. We were unlucky last year.

Just like if Hyman injury derails Edm this season I would say they were unlucky.

You're excusing the actual result to fabricate one due to injuries. They lost to EDM.

EDM ranked right beside VAN in Expected Goals Against (regular season), but not for Expected Goals for or Expected Goal Differential. VAN's one season record was better, granted, and they took EDM to game 7, great, but their true talent led to that series loss when it mattered most.

Record low shot totals.

I mean, just look at the trepidation over VAN making the playoffs this year over just switching from Tocchet to Foote, and Miller to MPetey. Why is there worry? EDM is going to the SCF finals 2 years in a row and VAN fans are worried about the playoffs. Think about it racer...

No he isnt on plan based on what all of us saw happened last year

I believe i acknowledged this earlier too

You did, thank you, but if he's not on plan, isn't that a failure?

Whether you or I think they tried to retool within 1-2 years, they still failed to achieve their immediate goal. This is an accurate assessment.

 

[racerjoe]

You're excusing the actual result to fabricate one due to injuries. They lost to EDM.

EDM ranked right beside VAN in Expected Goals Against (regular season), but not for Expected Goals for or Expected Goal Differential. VAN's one season record was better, granted, and they took EDM to game 7, great, but their true talent led to that series loss when it mattered most.

Record low shot totals.

I mean, just look at the trepidation over VAN making the playoffs this year over just switching from Tocchet to Foote, and Miller to MPetey. Why is there worry? EDM is going to the SCF finals 2 years in a row and VAN fans are worried about the playoffs. Think about it racer...



You did, thank you, but if he's not on plan, isn't that a failure?

Whether you or I think they tried to retool within 1-2 years, they still failed to achieve their immediate goal. This is an accurate assessment.

You can't talk about true talent of a team when one team is missing part of theirs... that's a disingenuous argument.

I don't think people would be so down on the Canucks if normal Petey didn't have a terrible year. I think if he had a normal year people wouldn't be worried at all.

I am also less worried about the team next year than most as I believe in Pettersson, than most.

For your Edmonton Example would people be as high on them if they traded Drai?

Also all of this part of the conversation is venturing way off the original topic.

 

[Hodgy]

You're excusing the actual result to fabricate one due to injuries. They lost to EDM.

EDM ranked right beside VAN in Expected Goals Against (regular season), but not for Expected Goals for or Expected Goal Differential. VAN's one season record was better, granted, and they took EDM to game 7, great, but their true talent led to that series loss when it mattered most.

Record low shot totals.

I think the low shot totals had a lot to do with playing an extremely defensive oriented game in front of a rookie goaltender who had a pretty mediocre playoffs. That isn't to say that the Canucks with Tochett didn't struggle with offense generation, because they did, but that wasn't the reason we lost to Edmonton. The reason we lost to Edmonton is because Demko was injured, and Petey was playing like a 50 point centre.

 

[Bleach Clean]

You can't talk about true talent of a team when one team is missing part of theirs... that's a disingenuous argument.

I don't think people would be so down on the Canucks if normal Petey didn't have a terrible year. I think if he had a normal year people wouldn't be worried at all.

I am also less worried about the team next year than most as I believe in Pettersson, than most.

For your Edmonton Example would people be as high on them if they traded Drai?

Also all of this part of the conversation is venturing way off the original topic.

You can talk about true talent when that bears out in the metrics during the regular and post season across two years. Injuries or otherwise.

Foote and MPetey are the only big changes, but the perception of the team has tanked. This shouldn't happen with a legit contender (which they obviously are not).

I also believe in a Pettersson bounce back next year. One of the few on this board to think this... But Draisaitl/McDavid still trumps Miller/Pettersson. We have to be realistic about that difference. EDM hitting a gear VAN can't match still happens. The only question would be Demko standing on his head to even it out, but even then, that's the same premise Oettinger is buckling under as we speak... Anyway.

 

[racerjoe]

You can talk about true talent when that bears out in the metrics during the regular and post season across two years. Injuries or otherwise.

Foote and MPetey are the only big changes, but the perception of the team has tanked. This shouldn't happen with a legit contender (which they obviously are not).

I also believe in a Pettersson bounce back next year. One of the few on this board to think this... But Draisaitl/McDavid still trumps Miller/Pettersson. We have to be realistic about that difference. EDM hitting a gear VAN can't match still happens. The only question would be Demko standing on his head to even it out, but even then, that's the same premise Oettinger is buckling under as we speak... Anyway.

I DONN'T think they are a contender as they stand today... but that isn't the question. Any argument towards that missed the point...

They were every bit a contender as EDM last year. Proof by where they finished in the regular season and playoffs...

I agree that McDavid and Drai is better than Petey and Miller... good thing that there is more to a team than just two players.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Assuming health what team had better 1-3 centre depth? I don't buy this argument at all. Should we have won the cup? Probably not, but were we good enough to be in the mix? Yep.

Many teams. Most importantly the two in the finals for sure.

Lindholm got hot for ~10 games.

We were insanely healthy through the season. We got lucky with injuries not the other way around.

McDavid and Draisatil were playing through significant injuries too. Do we make them healthy in your everyone-is-healthy hypothetical scenario?

 

[racerjoe]

Many teams. Most importantly the two in the finals for sure.

Lindholm got hot for ~10 games.

We were insanely healthy through the season. We got lucky with injuries not the other way around.

McDavid and Draisatil were playing through significant injuries too. Do we make them healthy in your everyone-is-healthy hypothetical scenario?

I think you are underselling Lindholm... I think as a 3C he is really good, and better than 99% of other teams 3C I would be our Centre depth on par with the Panthers, but if Edm is playing Drai and McDavid on different lines... yes theirs is better. But that is two elite teams... which is the point.

I mean I didn't bring up the injuries of Canucks who did play. So they would be healthy too right?

 

[andora]

You're excusing the actual result to fabricate one due to injuries. They lost to EDM.

EDM ranked right beside VAN in Expected Goals Against (regular season), but not for Expected Goals for or Expected Goal Differential. VAN's one season record was better, granted, and they took EDM to game 7, great, but their true talent led to that series loss when it mattered most.

Record low shot totals.

I mean, just look at the trepidation over VAN making the playoffs this year over just switching from Tocchet to Foote, and Miller to MPetey. Why is there worry? EDM is going to the SCF finals 2 years in a row and VAN fans are worried about the playoffs. Think about it racer...



You did, thank you, but if he's not on plan, isn't that a failure?

Whether you or I think they tried to retool within 1-2 years, they still failed to achieve their immediate goal. This is an accurate assessment.

Yep they didnt hit it

I guess I'm not willing to declare them an absolute yet and run around saying they failed they failed based on the context of the season i naturally kinda go.. ok.. i get it

This offseason is critical though

 

[Bleach Clean]

I DONN'T think they are a contender as they stand today... but that isn't the question. Any argument towards that missed the point...

They were every bit a contender as EDM last year. Proof by where they finished in the regular season and playoffs...

I agree that McDavid and Drai is better than Petey and Miller... good thing that there is more to a team than just two players.

You missed the implications being made, twice.

The first is that it's not normal for contender level rosters to have such a big drop off, year over year. Contenders are deep enough that they're able to withstand bad luck and still be a consistent playoff team. For example, EDM is right back to the SCF despite not being as strong as last year on talent, and despite being more injured than VAN this year! (per CHIP rating on HockeyViz)

Next, if the drop to a non-playoff team cannot be explained by moving Miller (as you've agreed), or injuries, then it must be true talent. It's the next best explanation. Unless, we're saying Tocchet was that bad a coach? If Foote is at least competent, then your position should be that they will be a contender next year... but it still isn't, and that's telling.

Yep they didnt hit it

I guess I'm not willing to declare them an absolute yet and run around saying they failed they failed based on the context of the season i naturally kinda go.. ok.. i get it

This offseason is critical though

The absolute is what they've already done. That's not changing.

I think you are conflating a recognition of that failure with condemning all future possibilities for management. They could still scramble and get the team back to the playoffs. That would probably have them back 'on plan' for you. That still doesn't change what they've done to this point, however.

If you looked at it with more of a dispassionate eye, you would acknowledge that "didn't hit it" was, in fact, failure. That's simply just what happened.

 

[Fatass]

You missed the implications being made, twice.

The first is that it's not normal for contender level rosters to have such a big drop off, year over year. Contenders are deep enough that they're able to withstand bad luck and still be a consistent playoff team. For example, EDM is right back to the SCF despite not being as strong as last year on talent, and despite being more injured than VAN this year! (per CHIP rating on HockeyViz)

Next, if the drop to a non-playoff team cannot be explained by moving Miller (as you've agreed), or injuries, then it must be true talent. It's the next best explanation. Unless, we're saying Tocchet was that bad a coach? If Foote is at least competent, then your position should be that they will be a contender next year... but it still isn't, and that's telling.



The absolute is what they've already done. That's not changing.

I think you are conflating a recognition of that failure with condemning all future possibilities for management. They could still scramble and get the team back to the playoffs. That would probably have them back 'on plan' for you. That still doesn't change what they've done to this point, however.

If you looked at it with more of a dispassionate eye, you would acknowledge that "didn't hit it" was, in fact, failure. That's simply just what happened.

I would love to see Manny hired as our coach and lead the team (on the ice) through a rebuild of our core. I just don’t see our owner allowing a rebuild. The Foote hire signals trading young assets and picks to try and get back into the playoffs.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I would love to see Manny hired as our coach and lead the team (on the ice) through a rebuild of our core. I just don’t see our owner allowing a rebuild. The Foote hire signals trading young assets and picks to try and get back into the playoffs.

Foote is a 'compete now' hire, I agree. If he gets close to replicating Tocchet, and they don't suffer as many injuries, then roster construction is really the only remaining factor. They are effectively controlling for the coaching variable by hiring Tocchet's understudy.

Personally, I don't want a rebuild of the core because that would mean Pettersson and Hughes are gone.

 

[racerjoe]

You missed the implications being made, twice.

The first is that it's not normal for contender level rosters to have such a big drop off, year over year. Contenders are deep enough that they're able to withstand bad luck and still be a consistent playoff team. For example, EDM is right back to the SCF despite not being as strong as last year on talent, and despite being more injured than VAN this year! (per CHIP rating on HockeyViz)

Next, if the drop to a non-playoff team cannot be explained by moving Miller (as you've agreed), or injuries, then it must be true talent. It's the next best explanation. Unless, we're saying Tocchet was that bad a coach? If Foote is at least competent, then your position should be that they will be a contender next year... but it still isn't, and that's telling.



The absolute is what they've already done. That's not changing.

I think you are conflating a recognition of that failure with condemning all future possibilities for management. They could still scramble and get the team back to the playoffs. That would probably have them back 'on plan' for you. That still doesn't change what they've done to this point, however.

If you looked at it with more of a dispassionate eye, you would acknowledge that "didn't hit it" was, in fact, failure. That's simply just what happened.

I didn't miss anything... You keep missing what the debate was... were we or were we not contenders last season...

There are cup winning teams that drop off the next year. Again most of your points are well not points for what is being talked about.

 

[Fatass]

Foote is a 'compete now' hire, I agree. If he gets close to replicating Tocchet, and they don't suffer as many injuries, then roster construction is really the only remaining factor. They are effectively controlling for the coaching variable by hiring Tocchet's understudy.

Personally, I don't want a rebuild of the core because that would mean Pettersson and Hughes are gone.

Maybe JR was only half joking about bringing Jack and Luke Hughes here. I wonder if jersey talks themselves into thinking Jack isn’t a guy who they can win with in big boy playoff hockey?
If Jersey went in that direction, I wonder what the cost would be?

 

[Bleach Clean]

I didn't miss anything... You keep missing what the debate was... were we or were we not contenders last season...

There are cup winning teams that drop off the next year. Again most of your points are well not points for what is being talked about.

They are points that indirectly support the main premise.

I'll explain again: If they were true talent contenders last year, and the following is agreed to:

- Miller alone does not change their contender status
- Pettersson will bounce back to a 1C level next year
- Foote can approximate Tocchet
- Injuries may have led to the playoff miss this year, but should normalize next year

Then we should assert that they are true talent contenders as it stands right now, correct? If not, what factor still keeps them from contender status in your eyes?

Can you list the cup winning teams that missed the playoffs the following year? Is there enough of these instances to suggest this happens 50% of the time?

 

[racerjoe]

They are points that indirectly support the main premise.

I'll explain again: If they were true talent contenders last year, and the following is agreed to:

- Miller alone does not change their contender status
- Pettersson will bounce back to a 1C level next year
- Foote can approximate Tocchet
- Injuries may have led to the playoff miss this year, but should normalize next year

Then we should assert that they are true talent contenders as it stands right now, correct? If not, what factor still keeps them from contender status in your eyes?

Can you list the cup winning teams that missed the playoffs the following year? Is there enough of these instances to suggest this happens 50% of the time?

You are not making the points you think you are...

First stop talking about this year... it doesn't matter to our conversation, because the two teams are vastly different. You are also miss aligning points, that are not what we are talking about.

Its simple... in 2023-2024, the Canucks were contenders. I would say we were contenders until Demko got hurt. Just like Florida... who is a better team than us this year and that year without Bob are not as good of team either. Surprise!

Your question isn't what I said either... I am talking about teams who dropped big time after a cup win.

I am pretty sure there are also teams that would fall under your question but not my point.

 

[Bleach Clean]

You are not making the points you think you are...

First stop talking about this year... it doesn't matter to our conversation, because the two teams are vastly different. You are also miss aligning points, that are not what we are talking about.

Its simple... in 2023-2024, the Canucks were contenders. I would say we were contenders until Demko got hurt. Just like Florida... who is a better team than us this year and that year without Bob are not as good of team either. Surprise!

Your question isn't what I said either... I am talking about teams who dropped big time after a cup win.

I am pretty sure there are also teams that would fall under your question but not my point.

Actually, you were responding to my statement of "contenders are deep enough that they're able to withstand bad luck and still be a consistent playoff team" with "there are cup winning teams that drop off the next year". Only, you evaded the playoff team parameter with the general "drop off next year".

To interpret what you've said here: The two Canucks teams, last year and this year, are "vastly different", and that they were contenders until Demko got hurt last year. Is it then safe to conclude that their contender status relied primarily upon Demko?

 

[racerjoe]

Actually, you were responding to my statement of "contenders are deep enough that they're able to withstand bad luck and still be a consistent playoff team" with "there are cup winning teams that drop off the next year". Only, you evaded the playoff team parameter with the general "drop off next year".

To interpret what you've said here: The two Canucks teams, last year and this year, are "vastly different", and that they were contenders until Demko got hurt last year. Is it then safe to conclude that their contender status relied primarily upon Demko?

No this conversation started with me asking you how in 2023-24 they were not actual contenders... anything not to that point is off track.

 

[andora]

You missed the implications being made, twice.

The first is that it's not normal for contender level rosters to have such a big drop off, year over year. Contenders are deep enough that they're able to withstand bad luck and still be a consistent playoff team. For example, EDM is right back to the SCF despite not being as strong as last year on talent, and despite being more injured than VAN this year! (per CHIP rating on HockeyViz)

Next, if the drop to a non-playoff team cannot be explained by moving Miller (as you've agreed), or injuries, then it must be true talent. It's the next best explanation. Unless, we're saying Tocchet was that bad a coach? If Foote is at least competent, then your position should be that they will be a contender next year... but it still isn't, and that's telling.



The absolute is what they've already done. That's not changing.

I think you are conflating a recognition of that failure with condemning all future possibilities for management. They could still scramble and get the team back to the playoffs. That would probably have them back 'on plan' for you. That still doesn't change what they've done to this point, however.

If you looked at it with more of a dispassionate eye, you would acknowledge that "didn't hit it" was, in fact, failure. That's simply just what happened.

If this is a simle word thing - they failed achieving rutherfords 2 year plan. Now that that is settled - trust me i have enough stufd in my life to use real emotion towards and this isnt it.

Yes you are correct that when things happen this offseason and into the season it does not change what has happened going back. That is a true statement and i am not upset in saying it.

 

[Bleach Clean]

If this is a simle word thing - they failed achieving rutherfords 2 year plan. Now that that is settled - trust me i have enough stufd in my life to use real emotion towards and this isnt it.

Yes you are correct that when things happen this offseason and into the season it does not change what has happened going back. That is a true statement and i am not upset in saying it.

I wish it were just semantics, but I'll take your efforts to reach a common ground regardless. Respect to you.

We should be able to critique what management has done at a higher level imo. I'm not saying they should be fired. They're still 'alive' (employed), and so as long as that is true, they can rescue things toward respectability. That's the best outcome now imo.

No this conversation started with me asking you how in 2023-24 they were not actual contenders... anything not to that point is off track.

What I have laid out is exactly to that point. I'm showing you how they were not a contender by increasing the sample to reduce the noise that their insane conversion rate created.

@Hodgy: They reduced their 5v5 Expected Goals For from the regular season to the playoffs by -11.82G/82 games. They bettered their Expected Goals Against from the regular season to the playoffs by +10.21. That's a similar trade off while turtling to protect Silovs...

Their record low shot totals are better explained by losing Medium and Low Danger totals from an already poor volume shooting team. No other team that had a sub 30 shots/G rate from the regular season advanced to the 2nd round. Still, their High Danger Chance rate remained relatively the same from regular season to playoffs: RS = 30.43/13 games; P = 28/13 games.

 

[andora]

I wish it were just semantics, but I'll take your efforts to reach a common ground regardless. Respect to you.

We should be able to critique what management has done at a higher level imo. I'm not saying they should be fired. They're still 'alive' (employed), and so as long as that is true, they can rescue things toward respectability. That's the best outcome now imo.

Yes they can rescue it and should be giben the time to attempt it

We can also critque them of course (never said otherwise) and they should be challenged.

 

[racerjoe]

I wish it were just semantics, but I'll take your efforts to reach a common ground regardless. Respect to you.

We should be able to critique what management has done at a higher level imo. I'm not saying they should be fired. They're still 'alive' (employed), and so as long as that is true, they can rescue things toward respectability. That's the best outcome now imo.



What I have laid out is exactly to that point. I'm showing you how they were not a contender by increasing the sample to reduce the noise that their insane conversion rate created.

@Hodgy: They reduced their 5v5 Expected Goals For from the regular season to the playoffs by -11.82G/82 games. They bettered their Expected Goals Against from the regular season to the playoffs by +10.21. That's a similar trade off while turtling to protect Silovs...

Their record low shot totals are better explained by losing Medium and Low Danger totals from an already poor volume shooting team. No other team that had a sub 30 shots/G rate from the regular season advanced to the 2nd round. Still, their High Danger Chance rate remained relatively the same from regular season to playoffs: RS = 30.43/13 games; P = 28/13 games.

But this isn't a discuassion about large sample sizes... so that is noise. Its like asking if the 2011 Canucks were cup contenders than saying no and referring to the 99-00 season. (yes I exaggerated to show a point).

Not only that teams can have a large flux in position. look at the 2023 devils vs the 2024.

I am not talking about if management deserves criticism, I have been pretty clear they deserve a lot for this season, I have been talking about that single season.