Player Discussion: Adam Fantilli

[Napoli]

I do think putting him on Monahan's wing would help significantly, largely because it would be on the wing and that suits Fantilli's current skillset.

But you seem to think Fantilli has only been placed with players who are underperforming themselves, and you have the causation backwards. He's played about as much with KJ and Marchenko as he has with ZAR and JVR. And ZAR and JVR have done fine away from Fantilli. I don't like that line either, FWIW, but you're not getting it if you think Fantilli's issues are because of them.

I dont think Fantilli isnt to blame. He needs to make adjustments, but I also dont think he's going to figure it out with ZAR and JVR. Both things can be true.

 

[VT]

I knew it was really bad, but wow:



The early Mackinnon comparison works for me but at this point only on the superficial level. Fantilli's game is more of a wreck than anything I remember from Mackinnon. We're got a bigger problem.

Once again, I'd love to know what the coaches conversation is about this. We have the Fantilli to the wing option, which I've been arguing for, but there's more options than that (like bringing in a strong veteran type). They can't possibly be thinking that we just keep going like this, can they? There's no way they're willing to do this with Fantilli all year?

It did just come to mind that Jenner's return might have Fantilli go to wing. I think they're too stuck in their ways with Voronkov but Jenner is a more respected center. But the way they've been operating, my guess is that Fantilli stays at center and Sillinger goes to wing (the way it was a month ago). They seem really committed to the head on stone wall trick, it must work eventually.

I don't think JvR and Aston-Reese are players whom Fantilli needs. Why doesn't Evason let Johnson play with him? Not only anytime. They had chemistry in the last season.

 

[majormajor]

I dont think Fantilli isnt to blame. He needs to make adjustments, but I also dont think he's going to figure it out with ZAR and JVR. Both things can be true.

If I had to guess, the reason Evason wants Fantilli with them is because they can play a simple structured game that Fantilli can gradually learn. The coaches are trying to get Fantilli to develop some structure to his game and it's harder alongside someone like KJ who is also doing something different every shift. And more obviously, KJ benefits from playing with other players who can get him more offensive zone possession time. With Fantilli, he was only getting about 33% xG, which is a long time in the wrong end of the ice.

 

[Viqsi]

Pretty good in-depth article about his sophomore slump here:

Diving into Adam Fantilli's Sophomore Slump

TL;DR Before I get deeper into the article, I’d like to lay out some of the points as a sort of quick hit before I get into the deeper proof.

pocketcbj.substack.com

One immediate course of action suggested is to get Fantilli a puck-hounding playmaking winger, like Brindley was at Michigan. He specifically names Evangelista (Trotz does seem intent on burning the Predators to the ground) and Nyquist (@majormajor).

I for one would be very much in favor of getting Evangelista over here.

 

[majormajor]

I for one would be very much in favor of getting Evangelista over here.

What does he do?

 

[Viqsi]

What does he do?

He's predominantly a playmaker (something I think we could definitely use), and I want to get him away to somewhere better before Trotz sells him for a 4th in 2029. That's pretty much as far as my interest gets.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

What does he do?

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[CBJ goalie]

Never underestimate the value of a veteran player.

 

[DankoCBJ]

There is some talk whether Fantilli ends up being a winger instead of a center and while no one can really see what the future holds, here is my thoughts on the matter.

First of all, Fantilli has spoke out that he sees and feels himself as a center. He wants to play center and improve as a two-way center.

And he certainly can, tools-wise, become a good, even great, center to the NHL. He has hands, speed, grit, will, determination and enough smarts / hockey IQ to pull it off. He wont likely ever be a Selke nominee, but that is fine.

He is already learning from Monahan and adjusting his game as a 20 year old, far far away from his prime. If you expect him playing as a smart classic two-way center this season, kind of comparing him to Monahan, you are doing it wrong. He is on his own path, learning and adjusting. And while I think he is already showing some improved details, he is by no means there yet, but lets give him time to grow to his full potential as a center.

 

[majormajor]

There is some talk whether Fantilli ends up being a winger instead of a center and while no one can really see what the future holds, here is my thoughts on the matter.

First of all, Fantilli has spoke out that he sees and feels himself as a center. He wants to play center and improve as a two-way center.

And he certainly can, tools-wise, become a good, even great, center to the NHL. He has hands, speed, grit, will, determination and enough smarts / hockey IQ to pull it off. He wont likely ever be a Selke nominee, but that is fine.

He is already learning from Monahan and adjusting his game as a 20 year old, far far away from his prime. If you expect him playing as a smart classic two-way center this season, kind of comparing him to Monahan, you are doing it wrong. He is on his own path, learning and adjusting. And while I think he is already showing some improved details, he is by no means there yet, but lets give him time to grow to his full potential as a center.

He wants to ride the unicycle when he hasn't even been on the bike yet.

Look at all the centers who started their NHL careers on the wing. Fantilli can do much of his maturing on the wing and be ready to learn the center position later.

 

[DankoCBJ]

He wants to ride the unicycle when he hasn't even been on the bike yet.

Look at all the centers who started their NHL careers on the wing. Fantilli can do much of his maturing on the wing and be ready to learn the center position later.

I agree with you major on many things here, but this is the one I disagree with.

I mean a few games here and there on wing are not a problem, but for Fantilli it is vital to play center if he wants to improve as a center.

He has played very winger-style hockey and some of his attributes are very winger-like so it is easy to slot him on winger position. And easier it would be for Adam too to just play wing, but if he wants to play center and improve and the organisation wants him to be a center
Then he should absolutely play center and keep adjusting his game to the nuances that it takes to play center ice position well.

As a center he is forced to slow down a bit and think instead of running around 100 miles per hour as a winger wrecking ball.

That is why I dont think it is a good idea to play him on the wing.

But I trust Don and Dean know what they are doing. They are smarter hockey people than me.

 

[koteka]

He is already learning from Monahan

One thing that bothers me a little is that I have heard so many people specifically talk about how great of a teacher Monahan is this season. I have heard it in radio interviews with Fantilli and KJ and the Russians and I have seen various quotes. Why haven’t other veteran guys been talked about like Monahan is? I have never heard a Russian say Boone was teaching him stuff.

This is one reason I am anti bringing in ex Jackets. We need new blood. Monahan seems to be different from other veterans we have had. Let’s find another guy who likes to teach if we acquire another veteran forward. Also, we are so much better at tipping pucks this season. I suspect that might be because of Monahan and JVR.

 

[alphafox]

One thing that bothers me a little is that I have heard so many people specifically talk about how great of a teacher Monahan is this season. I have heard it in radio interviews with Fantilli and KJ and the Russians and I have seen various quotes. Why haven’t other veteran guys been talked about like Monahan is? I have never heard a Russian say Boone was teaching him stuff.

This is one reason I am anti bringing in ex Jackets. We need new blood. Monahan seems to be different from other veterans we have had. Let’s find another guy who likes to teach if we acquire another veteran forward. Also, we are so much better at tipping pucks this season. I suspect that might be because of Monahan and JVR.

This has been my point with Jenner as Captain. This team has had a dumpster fire culture for years with no concern or focus on helping fellow players grow. Jenner has been the guy who presided over all of that. I do wonder if Jenner being gone has allowed better leaders like Werenski and Monahan. Just another reason to trade Jenner (yes I know that isn't going to happen but the upsides on return and turning the organizational page are huge)

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I agree with you major on many things here, but this is the one I disagree with.

I mean a few games here and there on wing are not a problem, but for Fantilli it is vital to play center if he wants to improve as a center.

fantilli usage options for the rest of this year, ranked by most preferable to least:

1. center, with good linemates
2. wing, with good linemates
3. center, with bad linemates
4. wing, with bad linemates

This has been my point with Jenner as Captain. This team has had a dumpster fire culture for years with no concern or focus on helping fellow players grow. Jenner has been the guy who presided over all of that. I do wonder if Jenner being gone has allowed better leaders like Werenski and Monahan. Just another reason to trade Jenner (yes I know that isn't going to happen but the upsides on return and turning the organizational page are huge)

absolutely nothing against jenner, who is a really good player and clearly a great guy who has earned the respect of the room, but: it's clear from watching the team this year that zach werenski has done more to earn the captaincy than jenner ever did.

monahan has a similar quiet leadership style to jenner's, but his game is built on hockey sense and smarts, and imo guys like fantilli and sillinger have picked up a lot from him this year.

this isn't the thread for it, and there are practical reasons why this won't happen, but a pettersson trade built around jenner + sillinger seems like a really good outcome for both teams.

 

[majormajor]

One thing that bothers me a little is that I have heard so many people specifically talk about how great of a teacher Monahan is this season. I have heard it in radio interviews with Fantilli and KJ and the Russians and I have seen various quotes. Why haven’t other veteran guys been talked about like Monahan is? I have never heard a Russian say Boone was teaching him stuff.

This is one reason I am anti bringing in ex Jackets. We need new blood. Monahan seems to be different from other veterans we have had. Let’s find another guy who likes to teach if we acquire another veteran forward. Also, we are so much better at tipping pucks this season. I suspect that might be because of Monahan and JVR.

We've had constant stories for years about guys learning from Boone Jenner. You may have just tuned them out because they were so commonplace.

Now Monahan of course can teach them things that Boone can't, but we still have a lot of guys that need to learn what Boone can teach. It would be a huge step forward, for example, if Fantilli could learn how to set up a forecheck. Or maybe guys like Sillinger and Chinakhov can coalesce as strong checking forwards, but they have a lot to learn there.

This has been my point with Jenner as Captain. This team has had a dumpster fire culture for years with no concern or focus on helping fellow players grow. Jenner has been the guy who presided over all of that. I do wonder if Jenner being gone has allowed better leaders like Werenski and Monahan. Just another reason to trade Jenner (yes I know that isn't going to happen but the upsides on return and turning the organizational page are huge)

Teams need a lot of leaders. We should be thinking about adding to that, not subtracting from it because we supposedly found the right one or two guys.

Poor Jenner, stuck as the only leader on a team devoid of it. And then as soon as he gets reinforcements, people are like "well we don't need that guy anymore".

As far as the captaincy goes, I think that's a separate discussion. I'm not really sure about the internal dynamics with Boone and Z and whether it matters who is wearing the C and who the A. They both might want to switch, or maybe Z prefers it as is.

 

[alphafox]

We've had constant stories for years about guys learning from Boone Jenner. You may have just tuned them out because they were so commonplace.

Now Monahan of course can teach them things that Boone can't, but we still have a lot of guys that need to learn what Boone can teach. It would be a huge step forward, for example, if Fantilli could learn how to set up a forecheck. Or maybe guys like Sillinger and Chinakhov can coalesce as strong checking forwards, but they have a lot to learn there.



Teams need a lot of leaders. We should be thinking about adding to that, not subtracting from it because we supposedly found the right one or two guys.

Poor Jenner, stuck as the only leader on a team devoid of it. And then as soon as he gets reinforcements, people are like "well we don't need that guy anymore".

As far as the captaincy goes, I think that's a separate discussion. I'm not really sure about the internal dynamics with Boone and Z and whether it matters who is wearing the C and who the A. They both might want to switch, or maybe Z prefers it as is.

More than happy to bring in leaders. I would happily trade for or add UFA veterans with cups and deep playoff runs, more effective, talented, leadership is great. I just don't think Jenner is any of those things. He is a grinder that "over performed" his draft position and signed a team friendly deal. If you are going to be a great team you need your best players to be your leaders. Crosby, Toews, Stamkos, Pietrangelo, Tkachuk, etc. not a guy who is a top tier third line center on a great team. Young players respond to guys that fill the stat sheet and outwork their teammates in pursuit of excellence. It's not Boone's fault we haven't had that since Nash left but it does mean he got the C by default not because he earned it.

Furthermore, while I don't recall any stories about Jenner volunteered by younger, successful players and potential future super stars I'll happily concede the point. Even if that is the case, none of those kids turned into anything great. He has been the captain over one of the worst periods of Jackets Hockey ever, which is saying a lot (and also not wholly on Jenner). Regardless, Jenner failed to step up in any meaningful way to help the young players find their footing when we needed leadership most. Even if he is a leader his leadership had bad results, which is all why even if we desperately need to add leadership it needs to be someone other than him, while we take the draft capital/prospects that we can get to continue to improve the team talent level.

 

[koteka]

We've had constant stories for years about guys learning from Boone Jenner. You may have just tuned them out because they were so commonplace.

I actually listen to a fair amount of local radio interviews with players. Like Dylan Tyrer pregame interviews or interviews in the Inside Edge. The guys this season have been knocking themselves over to talk about Monahan being a great teacher. I have never heard that before. I have heard guys enthusiastically talk about Foligno as a leader but not as a teacher. I have heard guys talk about Boone as a leader but not a teacher. The Monahan teacher talk is completely different to anything I have heard before. And it hasn’t been prompted by the interviewers.

 

[majormajor]

More than happy to bring in leaders. I would happily trade for or add UFA veterans with cups and deep playoff runs, more effective, talented, leadership is great. I just don't think Jenner is any of those things. He is a grinder that "over performed" his draft position and signed a team friendly deal. If you are going to be a great team you need your best players to be your leaders.

You do need your best players to be leaders (good critique of the Elias Pettersson trade idea). I think we have that emerging now with the likes of Marchenko, Werenski, and Monahan. It doesn't follow from that that you can't also have leaders that aren't your best players. It doesn't remotely follow that you should trade Boone Jenner.

When the Kings won their Cups, it was very important that Kopitar and Doughty were key leaders for that team. Another key leader, the guy wearing a C, was a slightly past his prime Dustin Brown, who scored 22 goals the first year they won, and 14 the second year.

Crosby, Toews, Stamkos, Pietrangelo, Tkachuk, etc. not a guy who is a top tier third line center on a great team.

Okay no Guy Carbonneau then.

It's amazing how all these teams stumbled on to cups with the wrong leaders. Those fools should have been listening to you.

Young players respond to guys that fill the stat sheet and outwork their teammates in pursuit of excellence. It's not Boone's fault we haven't had that since Nash left but it does mean he got the C by default not because he earned it.

If Rick Nash was on the same team as Boone Jenner I'd prefer Boone Jenner to be the captain.

Furthermore, while I don't recall any stories about Jenner volunteered by younger, successful players and potential future super stars I'll happily concede the point. Even if that is the case, none of those kids turned into anything great. He has been the captain over one of the worst periods of Jackets Hockey ever, which is saying a lot (and also not wholly on Jenner). Regardless, Jenner failed to step up in any meaningful way to help the young players find their footing when we needed leadership most. Even if he is a leader his leadership had bad results, which is all why even if we desperately need to add leadership it needs to be someone other than him, while we take the draft capital/prospects that we can get to continue to improve the team talent level.

We heard all about Boone's leadership, unprompted, many times.

I don't think it's remotely Boone Jenner's fault that guys like Adam Boqvist are not NHLers. That to me is a farcical argument to put against a player.

 

[alphafox]

You do need your best players to be leaders (good critique of the Elias Pettersson trade idea). I think we have that emerging now with the likes of Marchenko, Werenski, and Monahan. It doesn't follow from that that you can't also have leaders that aren't your best players. It doesn't remotely follow that you should trade Boone Jenner.

When the Kings won their Cups, it was very important that Kopitar and Doughty were key leaders for that team. Another key leader, the guy wearing a C, was a slightly past his prime Dustin Brown, who scored 22 goals the first year they won, and 14 the second year.



Okay no Guy Carbonneau then.

It's amazing how all these teams stumbled on to cups with the wrong leaders. Those fools should have been listening to you.



If Rick Nash was on the same team as Boone Jenner I'd prefer Boone Jenner to be the captain.



We heard all about Boone's leadership, unprompted, many times.

I don't think it's remotely Boone Jenner's fault that guys like Adam Boqvist are not NHLers. That to me is a farcical argument to put against a player.

Agree to Disagree since this is a Fantilli thread. My primary goal is to turn the page on the ruins of the last 5 years of jackets hockey and everyone who had a hand in them who isn't named Werenski, particularly anyone who had responsibility for leading those teams. Jenner is clearly not needed on this team and could be turned into other assets to further help us, literally without any negative effect to the current team. Let a new set of better influences support the development of guys like Fantilli and Lindstrom so hopefully we can actually develop some superstars.

 

[Viqsi]

Agree to Disagree since this is a Fantilli thread. My primary goal is to turn the page on the ruins of the last 5 years of jackets hockey and everyone who had a hand in them who isn't named Werenski, particularly anyone who had responsibility for leading those teams.

So, basically, it has nothing to do with Jenner's actual capability and is instead more "seeing him reminds me of Bad Times and I don't like that."

 

[alphafox]

So, basically, it has nothing to do with Jenner's actual capability and is instead more "seeing him reminds me of Bad Times and I don't like that."

No, I see Jenner as player who can't stay healthy for a full season, with a declining ability to contribute who is overvalued by the fanbase because he once had a 30 goal season a decade ago, chose to stay in columbus and was the best player we drafted and developed for years. His leadership, amounted to almost no positive result in either locker room chemistry, player development and professionalism, or on ice results. I can see no evidence of success from his leadership but I can see a horrible locker room year after year prior to this one. there simply is no value is keeping Jenner when he literally has nothing to do with the first success we have had in 5 years.

 

[stevo61]

So trying to make sense of something not really worth the effort to make sense of... If teams with noted good leaders miss the playoffs was it just bad leadership that year?

Also we wish our captain was a Rick Nash type again? A guy who had teams that made the playoffs once here? Do we want a leader or do we just want skilled guys as captain? I'm getting mixed signals here. I'll keep my true opinions calm so the mods don't have extra work but this is one of the worst takes I've read here and that's pretty impressive

 

[cbjthrowaway]

So trying to make sense of something not really worth the effort to make sense of... If teams with noted good leaders miss the playoffs was it just bad leadership that year?

Also we wish our captain was a Rick Nash type again? A guy who had teams that made the playoffs once here? Do we want a leader or do we just want skilled guys as captain? I'm getting mixed signals here. I'll keep my true opinions calm so the mods don't have extra work but this is one of the worst takes I've read here and that's pretty impressive

imo a captain should:

1. be a guy who can inspire the room with his words and his play
2. be a guy who can step up and drag a team to victory
3. be a guy who sets the standard with his play
4. (ideally) be a guy who is the de facto face of the franchise

this isn't meant as a slight to jenner whatsoever, but imo he was thrust into the captain role in a time when they didn't really need a captain. they'd just dealt foligno, savard, atkinson and jones. they were asking a young (at the time) player to step into that role without many veterans in the room.

he was clearly the best choice at the time, but my issue was (and is) with the notion that they had to make that choice then. that doesn't mean i doubt anything said about his leadership qualities, but to me he's the ideal "A" rather than a guy who you put the C on.

to me, werenski emphatically checks all the boxes. he's the engine that runs the team, he has stepped up as a leader, and he sets the standard for this team. he's also, imo, the face of the franchise, and the best player on the roster.

i could see fantilli eventually wearing a letter (perhaps even the C) some day. same with mateychuk. sillinger seems destined to wear a letter somewhere even if he's not a long-term fit here, and KJ is such a rink rat that i could see him growing into a formal leadership role the same way jordan eberle has in his career.

 

[stevo61]

imo a captain should:

1. be a guy who can inspire the room with his words and his play
2. be a guy who can step up and drag a team to victory
3. be a guy who sets the standard with his play
4. (ideally) be a guy who is the de facto face of the franchise

this isn't meant as a slight to jenner whatsoever, but imo he was thrust into the captain role in a time when they didn't really need a captain. they'd just dealt foligno, savard, atkinson and jones. they were asking a young (at the time) player to step into that role without many veterans in the room.

he was clearly the best choice at the time, but my issue was (and is) with the notion that they had to make that choice then. that doesn't mean i doubt anything said about his leadership qualities, but to me he's the ideal "A" rather than a guy who you put the C on.

to me, werenski emphatically checks all the boxes. he's the engine that runs the team, he has stepped up as a leader, and he sets the standard for this team. he's also, imo, the face of the franchise, and the best player on the roster.

i could see fantilli eventually wearing a letter (perhaps even the C) some day. same with mateychuk. sillinger seems destined to wear a letter somewhere even if he's not a long-term fit here, and KJ is such a rink rat that i could see him growing into a formal leadership role the same way jordan eberle has in his career.

A locker room is a lot more than just 1 guy who has a C doing everything. You don't have to look any further than Foligno and his time here. Good leader who grew into a role but also had a ton of support with a veteran coach, a guy like Dubinsky who wasn't scared to say what needed to be said and numerous other vets. People have this weird thing about equating wins to leadership. Boone isn't a vocal leader but you talk about leading by example and setting a standard, Boone is Boone everytime he steps on the ice.

If they want to do what San Jose and Toronto did and move the C from Jenner to Werenski that's fine but I'd wager a large amount that changes next to nothing in the room.

I don't think this is a super vocal room in general in terms of the yelling/speeches type but if guys need inspirational speeches all the time to get up for a game/period that's an issue with that player. Boone has just become as easy target because he's worn a C through a rebuild.

Good leadership is a collection of guys who have the room, if anyone thinks it's the captain and then everyone else they are straight up delusional