Player Discussion: Adam Fantilli

[CBJx614]

Well, that's a real meaningful response. LOL.

Fantilli ain't going to the minors. Nor should he. The notion that a low percentage probability of winning a Calder Cup is somehow going to significantly enhance his career is, well, ridiculous.

I don't see why you're so against him continuing his season to play hockey. There might be a handful of meaningless NHL games when he comes back. So why not send him to ahl where he can get some more ice time, in meaningful games where he's looked upon to be THE leader.

There's 0 downside unless you're afraid of him getting hurt.

Edit:

Not to mention they could send KJ, jiricek and whoever else is eligible down to combine with a guy like brindley and really send them all on a run.

These kids are rink rats and if you gave them the choice id imagine they'd all take another month of playing over an early off-season.

Unless you know you'd rather they get an early start to the off-season and go play some golf.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I don't see why you're so against him continuing his season to play hockey. There might be a handful of meaningless NHL games when he comes back. So why not send him to ahl where he can get some more ice time, in meaningful games where he's looked upon to be THE leader.

There's 0 downside unless you're afraid of him getting hurt.

Edit:

Not to mention they could send KJ, jiricek and whoever else is eligible down to combine with a guy like brindley and really send them all on a run.

These kids are rink rats and if you gave them the choice id imagine they'd all take another month of playing over an early off-season.

Unless you know you'd rather they get an early start to the off-season and go play some golf.

Injury risk is a huge factor. But I really don't see the developmental benefit for these reasons:

1) The kid knows how to win already. Michigan got to the Frozen 4 last year. Fantilli was a big part of that team.

2) What is he going to gain by playing with KJ? He already has that experience. Being forward on a line with Fix Wolansky or Carson Meyer isn't going to help him one iota. In fact, it would probably hinder him having to play down to their levels.

3) Playing against defensemen who can't even stick as #7s on an NHL roster would seem to have little positive benefit. If anything, it would be a negative as Fantilli could be successful with one-on-one moves which wouldn't have a chance against a first pairing NHL dman.

4) Most importantly. He's an NHLer and going to be a very good one. The AHL doesn't serve any purpose for an established NHLer beyond a short term rehab assignment.

If his health has returned by the end of the NHL season, then great. It's a tough transition to a long NHL schedule from an NCAA schedule. Let him have the rest of the year off to keep his health and chase girls and party with his buddies.

Had Fantilli played this season at Michigam, it would be a different story. He could have gotten some pro exposure in the AHL and that probably would have been of some benefit. Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry both started their pro careers with the AHL playoffs with the Cincinnati Mighty Ducks after their junior seasons had ended. Made perfect sense. It was a chance for them to dip their toes in the professional waters. Fantilli already has and has done quite well in the NHL. He doesn't need to take that path for any reason.

Let him enjoy some April links if golf is his gig.

 

[CBJx614]

Injury risk is a huge factor. But I really don't see the developmental benefit for these reasons:

1) The kid knows how to win already. Michigan got to the Frozen 4 last year. Fantilli was a big part of that team.

2) What is he going to gain by playing with KJ? He already has that experience. Being forward on a line with Fix Wolansky or Carson Meyer isn't going to help him one iota. In fact, it would probably hinder him having to play down to their levels.

3) Playing against defensemen who can't even stick as #7s on an NHL roster would seem to have little positive benefit. If anything, it would be a negative as Fantilli could be successful with one-on-one moves which wouldn't have a chance against a first pairing NHL dman.

4) Most importantly. He's an NHLer and going to be a very good one. The AHL doesn't serve any purpose for an established NHLer beyond a short term rehab assignment.

If his health has returned by the end of the NHL season, then great. It's a tough transition to a long NHL schedule from an NCAA schedule. Let him have the rest of the year off to keep his health and chase girls and party with his buddies.

Had Fantilli played this season at Michigam, it would be a different story. He could have gotten some pro exposure in the AHL and that probably would have been of some benefit. Ryan Getzlaf and Corey Perry both started their pro careers with the AHL playoffs with the Cincinnati Mighty Ducks after their junior seasons had ended. Made perfect sense. It was a chance for them to dip their toes in the professional waters. Fantilli already has and has done quite well in the NHL. He doesn't need to take that path for any reason.

Let him enjoy some April links if golf is his gig.

Winning over the course of a 30 game season and winning over the course an 82 game season plus a playoff that could almost possibly contain the same amount of games he played over the course of an entire NCAA season are two different things. Winning in college and winning versus grown men in a professional league are two different things.

I never said anything about him getting chemistry with KJ so idk what you're talking about. All of the kids in NHL need more experience winning, they could almost get more dubs in a playoff run then they had all season.

Once again, it's not that he's going down to learn the right way to play, it's to get him back on the ice and get reps as a LEADER, to be the guy the entire team looks to in clutch situations. Something he hasn't had to do yet in a professional league. It's also about getting reps, go ask a player who hasn't played hockey in two months what they want to do...

Spoiler, it's playing in actual games.

If you were to ask Fantilli if he would rather be golfing or playing in the AHL playoffs id wager my full year salary he'd rather be playing.

 

[Forepar]

My primary directive for Fantilli is that he show up for camp in September healthy, even a hair stronger than now, and eager to play hockey.

While I do not have any huge misgivings about him playing for the Monsters in the AHL playoffs, I agree with CR - there is not that much to gain.
He has already established that he will be a top-line NHL center. Nothing that happens in the AHL playoffs changes that. He has a healthy dose of confidence - appropriately so. He already sees/knows how to lead.

There are other current players on CBJ who would benefit, confidence-wise, play-wise and otherwise. KJ and Jiricek immediately come to mind.

Part of my angst also is not so much injury, but that a full 82-game season, with the losing, requires both physical and mental rest. Winning an AHL trophy is not on the level of even winning a 1st round playoff series in the NHL, imo. I agree that there are players who would benefit from an AHL run - Fantilli isn't one of them. Now, if he really wants to play, fine. But that needs to come from him, not from the FO or coaches, imo.

 

[CBJx614]

My primary directive for Fantilli is that he show up for camp in September healthy, even a hair stronger than now, and eager to play hockey.

While I do not have any huge misgivings about him playing for the Monsters in the AHL playoffs, I agree with CR - there is not that much to gain.
He has already established that he will be a top-line NHL center. Nothing that happens in the AHL playoffs changes that. He has a healthy dose of confidence - appropriately so. He already sees/knows how to lead.

There are other current players on CBJ who would benefit, confidence-wise, play-wise and otherwise. KJ and Jiricek immediately come to mind.

Part of my angst also is not so much injury, but that a full 82-game season, with the losing, requires both physical and mental rest. Winning an AHL trophy is not on the level of even winning a 1st round playoff series in the NHL, imo. I agree that there are players who would benefit from an AHL run - Fantilli isn't one of them. Now, if he really wants to play, fine. But that needs to come from him, not from the FO or coaches, imo.

He's basically going through his off-season right now. I don't know what his recovery will entail, but I can't imagine he's going to be able to skate until the last couple weeks of his recovery. I can't imagine there's too much he can do without being able to use one of his legs. So that likely means he won't be able to do any shooting or stick handling drills. By the time he's able to walk and shoot he's going to be absolutely dying to get back on the ice.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

I see no reason to rush or push a probable franchise player to play full contact until he is FULLY healed. Play it safe and let him participate in the WC if he’s selected and then play some golf

 

[CBJx614]

I see no reason to rush or push a probable franchise player to play full contact until he is FULLY healed. Play it safe and let him participate in the WC if he’s selected and then play some golf

If the timetables don't line up, I agree. But if he's back, *and eligible, I would rather him play.

 

[majormajor]

Johansen's career started very slowly. Fantilli's hasn't.

Staal's second season was a lockout year in the NHL. That's why he was in the AHL.

There's a theory that I buy into that there was a group of overqualified players like Spezza and Staal that got a huge boost from dominating the AHL for that lockout year. They got to sharpen their toolkit vs men, and then were able to apply that in the NHL.

My personal way of thinking about prospect development is that a guy benefits from being dominant - not several steps ahead of opponents, but go up the ladder step by step being one step ahead. I think Fantilli would benefit from doing that in the AHL.

There's this idea that the AHL is for players that aren't good enough to play in the NHL - but actually as a development league it's also for players that aren't yet as dominant in the NHL as they can be.

I'm also wondering if some of us are just overrating Fantilli. He might be our best offensive player already but he's as bad defensively as you'd expect for a kid in his D+1. It would be nice if he could learn a few more lessons before next season.

I see no reason to rush or push a probable franchise player to play full contact until he is FULLY healed. Play it safe and let him participate in the WC if he’s selected and then play some golf

We're talking about the AHL playoff run here, which starts weeks after Fantilli's 8-week recovery plan should wrap up.

 

[stevo61]

There's a theory that I buy into that there was a group of overqualified players like Spezza and Staal that got a huge boost from dominating the AHL for that lockout year. They got to sharpen their toolkit vs men, and then were able to apply that in the NHL.

My personal way of thinking about prospect development is that a guy benefits from being dominant - not several steps ahead of opponents, but go up the ladder step by step being one step ahead. I think Fantilli would benefit from doing that in the AHL.

There's this idea that the AHL is for players that aren't good enough to play in the NHL - but actually as a development league it's also for players that aren't yet as dominant in the NHL as they can be.

I'm also wondering if some of us are just overrating Fantilli. He might be our best offensive player already but he's as bad defensively as you'd expect for a kid in his D+1. It would be nice if he could learn a few more lessons before next season.



We're talking about the AHL playoff run here, which starts weeks after Fantilli's 8-week recovery plan should wrap up.

Spezza spent multiple years in the AHL and was a star coming out of it. The thing I remember most about that was Don Cherry hating on Ottawa massively through it all

Id be fine with the AHL also, I think you and I share a lot with our opinions on development but on the flipside he can finish whatever games he can get in the NHL and then probably represent Canada. AHL obviously gives him a bigger role but the WC gives him time around NHLers, either is fine option

 

[majormajor]

Spezza spent multiple years in the AHL and was a star coming out of it. The thing I remember most about that was Don Cherry hating on Ottawa massively through it all

Id be fine with the AHL also, I think you and I share a lot with our opinions on development but on the flipside he can finish whatever games he can get in the NHL and then probably represent Canada. AHL obviously gives him a bigger role but the WC gives him time around NHLers, either is fine option

Right, and Spezza is a good example of what I'm talking about because there is no way he would have been in the AHL for that extra year if not for the lockout.

He went straight from scoring 117 pts in the AHL to the following year scoring 90 pts in 68 NHL games, in the dead puck era!

 

[stevo61]

Right, and Spezza is a good example of what I'm talking about because there is no way he would have been in the AHL for that extra year if not for the lockout.

He went straight from scoring 117 pts in the AHL to the following year scoring 90 pts in 68 NHL games, in the dead puck era!

I decided to go back and look at that AHL class. Add Vanek to that list. Not a high pick but look at Bergeron's 18 year old season and then 20 year old season. Some of that is obvious natural growth but in no way could that AHL season have hurt him.

 

[majormajor]

I decided to go back and look at that AHL class. Add Vanek to that list. Not a high pick but look at Bergeron's 18 year old season and then 20 year old season. Some of that is obvious natural growth but in no way could that AHL season have hurt him.

I forgot they played in the A that year too.

 

[Jovavic]

It was pretty much everyone 20 and under (and North American) went to the AHL during the lockout except for Nash, who already won a Richard at 19 and felt playing there was beneath him so he buggered off to Switzerland with slightly older Joe Thornton.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

There's a theory that I buy into that there was a group of overqualified players like Spezza and Staal that got a huge boost from dominating the AHL for that lockout year. They got to sharpen their toolkit vs men, and then were able to apply that in the NHL.

Of note about 04-05.

That was an incredible AHL season due to the lockout. The league consisted of a significant percentage who would have been full time NHLers that season. The 04-05 Cincinnati Mighty Ducks were a mid pack team that season and 8-10 years after that season there were roughly 10 players from that roster who played full time in the AHL that season who were still playing in the NHL:

Cincinnati Mighty Ducks 2004-05 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 2004-05 Cincinnati Mighty Ducks playing in the AHL.

www.hockeydb.com

Suffice to say that the level of competition that season was far better than a normal AHL season and I'd agree with your assessment of Spezza and Stahl due to that. That's not the case with this season's AHL. Fanitlli wouldn't be getting anywhere near the level of competition that those guys got so the benefits wouldn't be the same.

Also, the defensive end is where most young, talented players need improvement once they get to the NHL. AHL exposure at the slower speed/skill level for a short period of time would be of minimal benefit.

 

[ProfessorFink22]

This conversation interests me, so here are my takes:

1) It's long been my opinion that a big part of the reason the '03 draft class was so good as a whole is actually because the '05 lockout led to all of them getting seasoned and not rushed (not just the AHL, but ones who stayed in major junior as well). Learning to be dominant and confident in a safe space is not a problem, I'd say at a minimum until a player's D+3 year.

2) Thinking Fantilli is too good for the AHL is asinine, and even a little arrogant. Examples above are provided, and I'll add that having our younger guys taking ownership of a winning culture is both valid and valuable. The danger of a team culture of being 'okay' with losing should be something CBJ fans are aware of more than most.

3) @Cyclones Rock If Fantilli was the type of guy who would rather take an extended summer to golf and chase girls and drink with his buddies, would he really even be the guy you want to hand the franchise over to?

I'd like to think after the two months he's getting to recover right now, he'd be hungry to play more in the spring. It's what he wants to do for the next 15-20 years of his life, after all. Something tells me if he didn't even want to play in a playoff run at 19, he very well isn't going to be the guy to lead us in a playoff run in the future either.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

3) @Cyclones Rock If Fantilli was the type of guy who would rather take an extended summer to golf and chase girls and drink with his buddies, would he really even be the guy you want to hand the franchise over to?

I said that a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I'm more than content to see Fantilli develop through NHL competition and feel that short term playoff AHL competition at this point has little to offer him except for injury risk.

I haven't any doubt about his commitment to excellence and-given what I sense about him-I think that he will probably develop into the franchise leader.

 

[ProfessorFink22]

I said that a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I'm more than content to see Fantilli develop through NHL competition and feel that short term playoff AHL competition at this point has little to offer him except for injury risk.

I haven't any doubt about his commitment to excellence and-given what I sense about him-I think that he will probably develop into the franchise leader.

And to be clear - I don't think that's Fantilli's M.O. at all either. I don't have any gripes with his approach, I love it.

I think we can agree to disagree, I see your logic - I just don't feel like the current CBJ's setup, and .420 points % culture is best for a 19 year old. Through no fault of his own, he's subject to being hemmed in his own zone and never having the puck on his stick in the NHL as of now. That script can be reversed in the AHL to end the year, on a team with more wins than losses.

Fantilli is NOT putting up Crosby like numbers in the NHL as a draft+1 player. He's not too good for the AHL.

Healthy teams over-marinate their players. No one is worried about Stankoven getting injured right now, he's like two years older than Fantilli (I think). It seems like Dallas fans don't mind him dominating the AHL as of now.

 

[stevo61]

And to be clear - I don't think that's Fantilli's M.O. at all either. I don't have any gripes with his approach, I love it.

I think we can agree to disagree, I see your logic - I just don't feel like the current CBJ's setup, and .420 points % culture is best for a 19 year old. Through no fault of his own, he's subject to being hemmed in his own zone and never having the puck on his stick in the NHL as of now. That script can be reversed in the AHL to end the year, on a team with more wins than losses.

Fantilli is NOT putting up Crosby like numbers in the NHL as a draft+1 player. He's not too good for the AHL.

Healthy teams over-marinate their players. No one is worried about Stankoven getting injured right now, he's like two years older than Fantilli (I think). It seems like Dallas fans don't mind him dominating the AHL as of now.

Stankhoven is also an undersized 2nd rounder on a good team. They likely want him physically developed and also used to a mens game before he comes into the NHL where there is no time and space. Hes a tank but that doesnt mean he cant get destroyed if he underestimates the speed of the game.

Brindley will be a comparable for us, people should stop hoping/expecting him to make it sooner than later

 

[VT]

This conversation interests me, so here are my takes:

1) It's long been my opinion that a big part of the reason the '03 draft class was so good as a whole is actually because the '05 lockout led to all of them getting seasoned and not rushed (not just the AHL, but ones who stayed in major junior as well). Learning to be dominant and confident in a safe space is not a problem, I'd say at a minimum until a player's D+3 year.

2) Thinking Fantilli is too good for the AHL is asinine, and even a little arrogant. Examples above are provided, and I'll add that having our younger guys taking ownership of a winning culture is both valid and valuable. The danger of a team culture of being 'okay' with losing should be something CBJ fans are aware of more than most.

3) @Cyclones Rock If Fantilli was the type of guy who would rather take an extended summer to golf and chase girls and drink with his buddies, would he really even be the guy you want to hand the franchise over to?

I'd like to think after the two months he's getting to recover right now, he'd be hungry to play more in the spring. It's what he wants to do for the next 15-20 years of his life, after all. Something tells me if he didn't even want to play in a playoff run at 19, he very well isn't going to be the guy to lead us in a playoff run in the future either.

On the one hand you're right, on the other hand we can't forget about his injury, whether it's better to rest him or play in the AHL.

 

[NotCommitted]

Winning as one of the top-players of your team can be huge boost especially if the games actually matter to you. You can see it often with international tournaments where guys can take big steps and then keep that going as the graduate higher and higher.

There's potential for something like that with Fantilli, it could be a huge boost if he went on a playoff run in the AHL and dominated. Sometimes it can be good to get a reminder of what kind of player you can be.

 

[CBJx614]

Winning as one of the top-players of your team can be huge boost especially if the games actually matter to you. You can see it often with international tournaments where guys can take big steps and then keep that going as the graduate higher and higher.

There's potential for something like that with Fantilli, it could be a huge boost if he went on a playoff run in the AHL and dominated. Sometimes it can be good to get a reminder of what kind of player you can be.

Exactly, it gives him a place to gain his confidence back heading into the off-season and a new hunger heading into next season. That Cleveland team could be absolutely stacked and it could do wonders for everyone involved: LDBB, Greaves, Brindley, Mateychuk, Svozil, KJ, Jiricek, Sillinger, Maletesta, Dumais and Fantilli?!?!

 

[CBJWerenski8]

 

[Forepar]

Exactly, it gives him a place to gain his confidence back heading into the off-season and a new hunger heading into next season. That Cleveland team could be absolutely stacked and it could do wonders for everyone involved: LDBB, Greaves, Brindley, Mateychuk, Svozil, KJ, Jiricek, Sillinger, Maletesta, Dumais and Fantilli?!?!

I get the development side. I get that Fantilli will have been out for 8 weeks and only played a few NHL games before the season ends. That missed time makes for a good discussion. After that discussion, you and I probably disagree about whether Fantilli should play in the AHL playoffs, so let's just agree to disagree on that one. I understand the rationale, I don't summarily dismiss it, I just have a different view when it comes to Fantilli.

This post surrounds KJ and Sillinger. An earlier post of mine summarily agreed on KJ benefitting from playing in the AHL playoffs. I am re-thinking that, and your inclusion of Sillinger in the list of players to gain from AHL playoffs probably prompted that.

Presuming the KJ and Sillinger play the remainder of the NHL schedule, does it make sense from a personal development/recovery standpoint for them to play a full NHL season of 82 games (or thereabouts) and then play in an extended AHL run? I see some positives. I recognize that if they were in the NHL playoffs we wouldn't blink an eye about development/recovery - go play and we hope you play in 82 +28=110 games and win Game 7 of the SCF! Recover later! Lol.
However, we aren't talking NHL playoffs, so imo, this issue is solely about development of the player(s) for the future, nothing else. Development meaning physically, emotionally, confidence, the whole shebang. Gaining an AHL title, in and of itself, has no inherent importance, at least to me. If the physical and mental advantages outweigh the cons, then ok, they play. I am in no way suggesting that KJ or Sillinger are too good to play in the AHL playoffs - but I see missed opportunities for up to two months of strength and skating training if a long AHL run takes place, that may be more important for one or both of them than an AHL run. If KJ and Sillinger had played a full AHL regular season, the AHL game schedule would have permitted more strength/skating training during the regular season - they have not had that luxury with the NHL schedule. And I recognize that both KJ and Sillinger are in years 2 and 3, respectively; they are not rookies. But at some point it's too much hockey and not enough training/recovery, and I query whether that would be the case here. Sillinger probably would handle it better than KJ on the physical side, but Sillinger also needs the most work on skating!
Thus I see a tougher balancing act on this issue than you do... I am not necessarily arguing that KJ and Sillinger should not play AHL playoffs, but am curious about what others on the HF think, especially those more pro hockey play/exposure than me (that qualifies everyone!)

 

[majormajor]

I get the development side. I get that Fantilli will have been out for 8 weeks and only played a few NHL games before the season ends. That missed time makes for a good discussion. After that discussion, you and I probably disagree about whether Fantilli should play in the AHL playoffs, so let's just agree to disagree on that one. I understand the rationale, I don't summarily dismiss it, I just have a different view when it comes to Fantilli.

This post surrounds KJ and Sillinger. An earlier post of mine summarily agreed on KJ benefitting from playing in the AHL playoffs. I am re-thinking that, and your inclusion of Sillinger in the list of players to gain from AHL playoffs probably prompted that.

Presuming the KJ and Sillinger play the remainder of the NHL schedule, does it make sense from a personal development/recovery standpoint for them to play a full NHL season of 82 games (or thereabouts) and then play in an extended AHL run? I see some positives. I recognize that if they were in the NHL playoffs we wouldn't blink an eye about development/recovery - go play and we hope you play in 82 +28=110 games and win Game 7 of the SCF! Recover later! Lol.
However, we aren't talking NHL playoffs, so imo, this issue is solely about development of the player(s) for the future, nothing else. Development meaning physically, emotionally, confidence, the whole shebang. Gaining an AHL title, in and of itself, has no inherent importance, at least to me. If the physical and mental advantages outweigh the cons, then ok, they play. I am in no way suggesting that KJ or Sillinger are too good to play in the AHL playoffs - but I see missed opportunities for up to two months of strength and skating training if a long AHL run takes place, that may be more important for one or both of them than an AHL run. If KJ and Sillinger had played a full AHL regular season, the AHL game schedule would have permitted more strength/skating training during the regular season - they have not had that luxury with the NHL schedule. And I recognize that both KJ and Sillinger are in years 2 and 3, respectively; they are not rookies. But at some point it's too much hockey and not enough training/recovery, and I query whether that would be the case here. Sillinger probably would handle it better than KJ on the physical side, but Sillinger also needs the most work on skating!
Thus I see a tougher balancing act on this issue than you do... I am not necessarily arguing that KJ and Sillinger should not play AHL playoffs, but am curious about what others on the HF think, especially those more pro hockey play/exposure than me (that qualifies everyone!)

I agree that the most obvious gains for KJ and Sillinger will come away from game action, in the gym and in skating training. Giving them an early start on that, in April even, might be the best.

Fantilli meanwhile doesn't have as much to work on off the ice. He needs to learn a lot of off puck details. I do think he needs more rest compared to mature players, but he'll be out of action for two months with this injury, and some AHL playoff action (which won't be easy) should be good experience.

Anyways, it didn't seem like we ever cleared up whether he can be assigned to the AHL before the playoff roster freeze, while he is on IR.

 

[squashmaple]

Wait, I thought Sillinger is no longer waivers exempt and can't be papered down to the AHL to be eligible for the playoffs.