A team from Florida will be competing in the Stanley Cup final for the 6th year in a row

[TageGod]

Great straw man argument.

In what world is this a straw man? You told me a hockey player would not base a decision around money, which is HILARIOUS. Try making 10m as Marner in Toronto then be told he takes home an extra 4 million if he signed in Florida for the same salary. Sports players do not have a state pension or retirement plan. That money matters. Why do you think they have agents pushing for every dollar they can? Why are so many former players getting into coaching and broadcasting?

 

[Lshap]

I think the argument is that players on teams in high tax jurisdictions (such as Toronto) have to spend more on high-end players (let's take John Tavares at his $11m cap hit for example), which gives them less cap space to construct a team, whereas an equivalent contract for John Tavares if he signed for a team where there's no state tax that results in the same net pay would be... well, less than $11m in gross compensation certainly, I'm not going to try to do the math on it, but it does leave the team with slightly more cap space.

While a player could hypothetically earn more money from endorsements (and the like) on top of his salary by signing with Toronto, I've heard of no such case where a player agreed to take, say, a $9m contract in Toronto (as opposed to say $10m in Nashville) because the negotiation of that salary was "well you can end up making more money overall by signing here so we can get away with giving you a smaller contract" or something like that.

I can buy that argument as being valid, but I'll admit I don't have an informed opinion on whether I agree or disagree with it. I'd have to see all the numbers on it to form a truly informed opinion, and because players' tax returns are not public information, that's not possible.

That's the thing about this topic – players' net pay is much more complex than a simple calculation of salary minus tax rate. There's much more we don't know than what we do know.

As others have correctly said, good accounting levels the tax playing field somewhat. Then there are financial factors that vary from city to city and player to player, like cost of living and endorsement opportunities. Of course they won't show up in a hockey contract, but those variables mitigate the tax rate when a player is choosing which city to play in.

When it comes to endorsements, here in Montreal many Habs show up in McDonalds commercials and have meals named after them. Others do radio promos or show up in ads for various products/companies. I'm sure it's the same in Toronto and, to different degrees, the other Canadian markets. No idea how much those side-hustles pay, but they certainly help make up the difference for those extra taxes they may have paid.

And that assumes a player is only looking at dollars when making a decision. You also measure the quality of the city itself – attractiveness, vibe, weather, personal attachments, culture, etc. Does the player have close friends or a favourite coach on a particular team? Does he have a young family? In which case he's factoring in safety, schooling, their wives' jobs and friends, etc.

 

[pb1300]

In what world is this a straw man? You told me a hockey player would not base a decision around money, which is HILARIOUS. Try making 10m as Marner in Toronto then be told he takes home an extra 4 million if he signed in Florida for the same salary. Sports players do not have a state pension or retirement plan. That money matters. Why do you think they have agents pushing for every dollar they can? Why are so many former players getting into coaching and broadcasting?

He’s not taking an extra 4 million there are ways around the tax bitching, which has been explained countless times, but people ignore it as it doesn’t benefit their whining.

 

[Silky Johnson]

In what world is this a straw man? You told me a hockey player would not base a decision around money, which is HILARIOUS. Try making 10m as Marner in Toronto then be told he takes home an extra 4 million if he signed in Florida for the same salary. Sports players do not have a state pension or retirement plan. That money matters. Why do you think they have agents pushing for every dollar they can? Why are so many former players getting into coaching and broadcasting?

Players definitely get an NHL pension plan. Marner would likely receive the max based on his likely length of service which is an inflation indexed USD 280,000.00 per year. He would be eligible to start receiving benefits at 45 years old.

He would also qualify for the state pension (CPP) like all other residents who work. If he stayed playing in Canada for 15 years and didn't ever have another job he would get CDN 524 per month at the age of 65.

If Marner played for the rest of his career at the league minimum he would be still a 1%er and have a fine retirement.

Not that I am saying that he should do this - god knows I would take the money in hand but you are factually wrong.

 

[HofT]

Not just that but both Tampa and Florida are borderline dynasty teams.

 

[MoneyManny]

The "reach" is that there a huge number of factors which can impact a markets desirability for UFAs. The CBA ignores all of non-monetary factors including things like signing bonuses, endorsement opportunities, and relative cost of living. Cherry picking taxes because it reinforces certain perspectives as to why certain markets can't succeed seems to be the easy button IMO.

That huge number of factors and yet a Florida team ends up in the SCF every year.

Does it need to happen for 25 years in a row for you to believe there might be a correlation?

 

[SirKillalot]

Sports players do not have a state pension or retirement plan. That money matters.

Its possible for them to get a job after their playing career.

 

[Voight]

In what world is this a straw man? You told me a hockey player would not base a decision around money, which is HILARIOUS. Try making 10m as Marner in Toronto then be told he takes home an extra 4 million if he signed in Florida for the same salary. Sports players do not have a state pension or retirement plan. That money matters. Why do you think they have agents pushing for every dollar they can? Why are so many former players getting into coaching and broadcasting?

Because it's not that simple. Players have an army of accountants who's job is to ensure they take hime the most money.

Look at Matthews. He saves a ton on tax despite playing in a high tax market because the majority of his salary comes via signing bonus July 1st and he's an Arizona resident at that point so he pays US federal and Arizona state tax on it. If Marner signed with Florida but remained a Toronto resident in the off season and had received 9 of 10 million via bonus, he wouldn't be saving much.

 

[pb1300]

Its possible for them to get a job after their playing career.

If you need a pension or job after retiring from the NHL, and making millions a season, you have a serious problem.

 

[FinlandPanther]

I mean, you're kinda just in that Carolina/Anaheim/Dallas tier of teams so far.

So are the Oilers in the Columbus, Nashville and Seattle tier?

 

[SirKillalot]

If you need a pension or job after retiring from the NHL, and making millions a season, you have a serious problem.

Or maybe you just want something to do?
But, either way. Most people just don't retire all together before 40, they go on to a different business if anything.

 

[pb1300]

Because it's not that simple. Players have an army of accountants who's job is to ensure they take hime the most money.

Look at Matthews. He saves a ton on tax despite playing in a high tax market because the majority of his salary comes via signing bonus July 1st and he's an Arizona resident at that point so he pays US federal and Arizona state tax on it. If Marner signed with Florida but remained a Toronto resident in the off season and had received 9 of 10 million via bonus, he wouldn't be saving much.

Exactly. Do you know how much money alone Matthews saves on taxes because most of his salary is a lump sum signning bonus? It's like almost 40% less. With the way Matthews has his contract structured, his team can get his taxes down to where his take home would be less than a million difference than if he was playing in Florida. It is MUCH easier for millionaires to keep their extra money than it is for us po'folks who make significantly less.

 

[pb1300]

Or maybe you just want something to do?
But, either way. Most people just don't retire all together before 40, they go on to a different business if anything.

Yes, and that is where they make their fortune, if they are smart. They just have the advantage of retiring with 40-50-60 million.

 

[Catscountry40]

The Panthers wouldn't even exist if it weren't for Canadian fans going to the games. And fans from Northeastern USA.

New franchises wouldn't exist if the initial teams did have success and creating an environment for growth?

Did you know if the first McDolands went out of business there most likely would not have been more?

 

[Ice9]

The teams from all the other locations better get on the ball…

 

[ClydeLee]

That huge number of factors and yet a Florida team ends up in the SCF every year.

Does it need to happen for 25 years in a row for you to believe there might be a correlation?

Yet 17-11 years ago, They were either bottom of the league teams for 5/6 straight years from 08-14.

And it took Florida a quite long time to get good after that. This is such an odd thing to say by people. Why did no taxes not help the Panthers at all in the 2010s?

Tampa hasn't left round 1 in 2 years because their drafted talent is aging out. Hedman and Stamkos and others are older and depth is worse. They let Stamkos walk because he wasn't worth the contract he wanted, even with the no tax advantage. So he choose another tax free state, but one with a team vision destined to be bad. No taxes are not going to save Tampa or Flordia from dropping down from contenders. If it did happen 10 plus years in a row that would be a growing concern. If a team like Nashville who tried to just be good by UFA last offseason worked...

which I'm amazed people thought signing 32+ years olds to big deals was seen as good by anyone, then we would have a problem. But that's not how you win. Rebuilding through the draft and making strong trades is still the goto way. Winning 7-10 years after a few top 5 picks are on your team is typically the trend. The same way Tampa and the Panthers won, roster construction way is on track with how Colorado or Pittsburgh won.

 

[MoneyManny]

Yet 17-11 years ago, They were either bottom of the league teams for 5/6 straight years from 08-14.

And it took Florida a quite long time to get good after that. This is such an odd thing to say by people. Why did no taxes not help the Panthers at all in the 2010s?

Tampa hasn't left round 1 in 2 years because their drafted talent is aging out. Hedman and Stamkos and others are older and depth is worse. They let Stamkos walk because he wasn't worth the contract he wanted, even with the no tax advantage. So he choose another tax free state, but one with a team vision destined to be bad. No taxes are not going to save Tampa or Flordia from dropping down from contenders. If it did happen 10 plus years in a row that would be a growing concern. If a team like Nashville who tried to just be good by UFA last offseason worked...

which I'm amazed people thought signing 32+ years olds to big deals was seen as good by anyone, then we would have a problem. But that's not how you win. Rebuilding through the draft and making strong trades is still the goto way. Winning 7-10 years after a few top 5 picks are on your team is typically the trend. The same way Tampa and the Panthers won, roster construction way is on track with how Colorado or Pittsburgh won.

It's not merely taxes, it's the implementation of NHL's hard salary cap along with those taxes.

Also please enlighten me as to how Florida rebuilt through the draft? For the last decade the best player they've drafted was Spencer Knight and he's not even a starter.

By "strong trades" do you mean targeting players with NTC that are open to play with FLA for tax reasons? Still the same issue.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

That huge number of factors and yet a Florida team ends up in the SCF every year.

Does it need to happen for 25 years in a row for you to believe there might be a correlation?

"Every year"? It's 4 years, when both teams were ass 10-12 years ago and drafted great building around guys like Stamkos, Herman, Vasy, Barkov, Ekblad, Huberdeau (turned into Thachuk). Funny how many of the teams that were good 10 years ago in CHI, ANA, and SJ are bad now. Is that a coincidence?

If Florida is the magic spot, how come TB can't get out of the first round 3 years in a row? Hell, somehow TB even with the "Florida no tax easy mode" engaged lost twice in the first round to the most oppressed franchise in the poor Toronto Maple Leafs.

 

[Hank Chinaski]

Yes, and that is where they make their fortune, if they are smart. They just have the advantage of retiring with 40-50-60 million.

99% of NHL players are retiring with nowhere near $40M+ in net worth.

 

[T REX]

That huge number of factors and yet a Florida team ends up in the SCF every year.

Does it need to happen for 25 years in a row for you to believe there might be a correlation?

TWENTY FIVE YEARSSS????

Oh my goodness! 25 years? That's a lot. SMDH.

Get better GMs and players. Wait till they find the actual fountain of youth in Florida and the players stop aging.

Then it will be centuries of FL dominance. Come on Ponce de Leon.

 

[Louie the Blue]

It's not merely taxes, it's the implementation of NHL's hard salary cap along with those taxes.

Also please enlighten me as to how Florida rebuilt through the draft? For the last decade the best player they've drafted was Spencer Knight and he's not even a starter.

By "strong trades" do you mean targeting players with NTC that are open to play with FLA for tax reasons? Still the same issue.

Ekblad and Barkov were drafted 1 and 2 in consecutive years.

 

[Dirty Mind]

So are the Oilers in the Columbus, Nashville and Seattle tier?

Not trying to sound elitist here, but the fact is the Edmonton Oilers are a storied franchise that have had moments that are pretty significant in NHL history.










And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. Hate to include The “Trade” but can’t deny that was probably the most siginificant moment in NHL history, outside of maybe 1967 Expansion.

I’m not saying the league would fail without us or anything but we’re one of the more noticable teams. We’re sexy and we know it.

 

[pb1300]

Ekblad and Barkov were drafted 1 and 2 in consecutive years.

Huberdeau was as well, and moved for Tkachuk. Lundell was drafted, as was Samoskevich. Lots of pieces were drafted, played for Florida, and contributed to the team they are today. It’s not our fault that we have the best management and scouts in the league.

 

[T REX]

Huberdeau was as well, and moved for Tkachuk. Lundell was drafted, as was Samoskevich. Lots of pieces were drafted, played for Florida, and contributed to the team they are today. It’s not our fault that we have the best management and scouts in the league.

None of that matters. it's ALL because of taxes. Your drafting? Taxes. Trade skills? Taxes. Every iota of success is bc of taxes. Even the weather in FL is tax related bc we switch the tax burden to the tourists. Even the weather is the taxes fault. Beaches? Taxes. We owe everything to taxes. It's all on auto-pilot now. Death, taxes and Florida hockey! Murica!

 

[MoneyManny]

Ekblad and Barkov were drafted 1 and 2 in consecutive years.

Drafting core players with the 1OA and 2OA, what front office genius!!!!! Has clearly never been done before.