A lull in McDavid's reign — is he off the pedestal?

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

This thread really just shows that the mains are where intelligence goes to die. It's like the Twitter of hockey.

 

[crowfish]

You said he was "far and away" the best point producer in the league. He has only been that in one full non-covid affected season.

If you want to quibble with whether this qualifies as "far and away" or not that is up to you.

Without empty nets factored in:

McDavid 1.62
Kucherov 1.44
MacKinnon 1.43

 

[PainForShane]

Remember the names Nikita Chibrikov and Collin Graf. I've seen some funny posts on this site, and this is...certainly one of them. Holy hell.

Learn how to read @mcdingdong.

I literally called out in my post the fact that P/60 has limitations including directly mentioning McDavid is 1000x better than Collin Graf, as everybody knows. Holy Hell!!

The idea -- which I legitimately didn't think needed explanation -- is that if someone is around 20th in points per 60, or if he's 8th in points per 60 -- thx @Coffey for bringing that up, my guess is they had a GP minimum which I didn't bother to filter -- or 2nd in total points in the last two seasons over roughly the same number of games (thx @Cousin Eddie), it means that person isn't and hasn't been lapping the rest of the NHL wrt offense during that time period. Maybe McDavid is the most valuable offensive player in the league (which is definitely arguable), but it's not like he's lapping everybody. It was and still is a pretty simple idea.

In the meantime, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA @mcdingdong HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA glad I could make you laugh. Next time I'd encourage reading / understanding posts before you reply. Or not.

 

[nturn06]

I'm sorry man. McDavid is definitely a great player but he's not far and away the best point producer in the NHL this year at 5v5, it's not even close. In fact as of right now (just looked this up from NST, screenshot below), McDavid's points per 60 are still good, but not especially impressive so far this year.

View attachment 957121

P/60 at 5v5 isn't the only relevant stat (of course), and obviously P/60 has its own limitations. Just as obviously McDavid is still a great player and 1000x better than someone like Collin Graf or this year's version of Jamie Benn. But this year he hasn't been 'far and away the best point producer in the NHL,' what you said is completely wrong. It's not even remotely close

Yikes, are you really including and relying on a "stat" where the top player only played 1 game, and 4 of the top 5 have 7 games or less?

The NHL coaches must be really stupid not to play those players more.

But the most hilarious part of this is that MacKinnon is ranked 69th in this cathegory. Is this why you left the top 10 out, so people assume Mack is there?

Agreed.

He barely is a top 10 player this year yet everyone acts like he is a god.

MacKinnon is not even top 60 in the same list, any smart comments?

 

[kugelbahn]

Crosby fanboys established grace period of 2 years, lets revisit this topic in summer!

 

[PainForShane]

Yikes, are you really including and relying on a "stat" where the top player only played 1 game, and 4 of the top 5 have 7 games or less?

The NHL coaches must be really stupid not to play those players more.

But the most hilarious part of this is that MacKinnon is ranked 69th in this cathegory. Is this why you left the top 10 out, so people assume Mack is there?


MacKinnon is not even top 60 in the same list, any smart comments?

It's called using a filter. I didn't bother applying a games played filter because I thought it would be obvious that a person who's 20th a particular category isn't "far and away the best point producer" ie he's not lapping the field. And yes, it'd be more accurate to use a filter. If you do that in NST, McDavid comes in 12th, with evolving hockey I guess McDavid comes in 8th, at least according to @Coffey, I haven't bothered to look. Still not even close to lapping the field.

Obviously like I said P/60 has limitations such as ppl mistakenly thinking they can extrapolate someone with limited ice time / good matchups and pretend they'd produce at the same rate with additional ice time and all that requires. P/60 shouldn't be used for that and isn't meant to be used that way everyone knows this including NHL coaches. Probably high school coaches too.

***

Meanwhile, apparently you went into the table yourself, where I assume you saw McDavid is still below multiple matchup / ice-time peers such as Jack Eichel, Kaprizov, Kucherov. Arguably Ovechkin but Ovi's not playing that many minutes 5v5 so I personally wouldn't make that particular claim.

Anyway that's one indication (there are others) that shows this year he's not lapping the rest of the league in offensive production, which is literally the only thing I am claiming. This also should be obvious to most ppl who are watching games this year.

Yikes!

 

[Phil Kessels Hot Dog]

Barkov is better than Mcdavid.

Kucherov
Mackinnon
Makar
Barkov

Mcdavid barely top 5, or do you have more players ahead?

 

[Cousin Eddie]

I want to know why we are talking about 5v5 stats when my post had nothing to do with 5v5. Do you need to switch the topic to try and score points against what I said? That is probably a sign you have no argument, otherwise you wouldn't bother reaching with stats irrelevant to what I posted.

As for 5v5 points, I would be very interested to see his 5v5 numbers when Makar is not on the ice. Every Avs game I have watched is pretty much an all-star game 5v5 with MacKinnon out there with Rantanen & Makar. 2 absolute studs at their position, Makar is probably the best D in the league & Rantanen is top 3 at wing. McDavid has never played 1 minute of ice time with a defenceman or winger that good, let alone both at the same time. He is currently playing with Connor Brown & RNH, and as good as Bouchard is he is certainly not Cale Makar.

And the empty net argument is very clearly a valid one. When pts/game is being referenced it is in spirit to say who the best at scoring points is. Nobody cares who can score freebie points at the end of the game. Even if MacKinnon is getting them because "He is a true shutdown center", okay great. That means he is better at being a shutdown center than McDavid, but the relevant topic is who is better at producing points. I wouldn't even reference empty net points if it wasn't some crazy outlier, but MacKinnon is pacing for 22+ empty net points, which would shatter the current record by 50% lol. He has an 11-0 advantage vs McDavid. So no, you are not going to convince me it is not a relevant thing to factor in when comparing pts/game (especially on a 40-game sample)

The reason I brought up 5v5 is because you cherry picked your stats to not include empty netters and that was comical lol.

 

[nturn06]

Meanwhile, apparently you went into the table yourself, where I assume you saw McDavid is still below multiple matchup / ice-time peers such as Jack Eichel, Kaprizov, Kucherov. Arguably Ovechkin but Ovi's not playing that many minutes 5v5 so I personally wouldn't make that particular claim.

Anyway that's one indication (there are others) that shows this year he's not lapping the rest of the league in offensive production, which is literally the only thing I am claiming. This also should be obvious to most ppl who are watching games this year.

Yikes!

Yes, I went into the table myself, and what I saw is that McD is actually 4th in the league in 5v5 points and actually second in 5v5 points per game, yet somehow you managed to relegate him to 19th. This is called cherrypicking. Also, not leaving out the players with very few games (because people can actually spend time to see that when you say 19th you actually mean 6th or 7th or something), just to make his stats look worse, is also cherrypicking.

The production is not linear in ice time. Otherwise, players would play the full 60 minutes, yet somehow you manage to turn the fact that McD has better stamina than other players into a disadvantage. Why are 5v5P/60 more relevant than 5v5 P/G or ESP/G or PPG when talking about offensive production?

Also, you keep saying that this stat is not too relevant, yet you keep trying to push this single stat. Why? Besides the fact that it may make McD look bad, can you give me a reason why this one is the important stat, or at least an important stat to measure offensive production? Especially when the league point leader is doing terrible in this cathegory?

 

[PainForShane]

Yes, I went into the table myself, and what I saw is that McD is actually 4th in the league in 5v5 points and actually second in 5v5 points per game, yet somehow you managed to relegate him to 19th. This is called cherrypicking. Also, not leaving out the players with very few games (because people can actually spend time to see that when you say 19th you actually mean 6th or 7th or something), just to make his stats look worse, is also cherrypicking.

The production is not linear in ice time. Otherwise, players would play the full 60 minutes, yet somehow you manage to turn the fact that McD has better stamina than other players into a disadvantage. Why are 5v5P/60 more relevant than 5v5 P/G or ESP/G or PPG when talking about offensive production?

Also, you keep saying that this stat is not too relevant, yet you keep trying to push this single stat. Why? Besides the fact that it may make McD look bad, can you give me a reason why this one is the important stat, or at least an important stat to measure offensive production? Especially when the league point leader is doing terrible in this cathegory?

You're missing the context.

The context is some guy said McDavid was 'far and away the best point producer in the NHL' right now, I didn't think that was true. I picked P/60 to evaluate because I thought it would be the most obvious / require the least explanation while also requiring zero effort to compile. It also happens to be the stat I'd choose to evaluate that particular claim (actually this sentence is more relevant than the last one).

Anyway I didn't cherry pick the stat, I literally went into NST and sorted by P/60 this year without even bothering to include a games played filter. What I did was literally the opposite of cherry picking, you can throw accusations however you want, I honestly don't care.

My point -- my only point -- is that McDavid isn't far and away the best producer in the NHL this season, and he's not even close to that level, which is kind of what this thread is about, actually.

Anyway I'm not especially married to points per 60, though as I said above that's the first stat I'd look at to try to evaluate production. Obviously in order to use this stat to compare ppl, you need them to have similar ice time and deployment, so that's why to me McDavid being materially lower than Kaprizov, Kucherov, Eichel (all first line players used in similar ways) is esp applicable in showing he's not playing a level above those guys. Differences in 5v5 ice time is also why I personally don't think it's right to compare him to Ovi (who is far and away the league leader in this particular stat) which is what I said in last msg.

But yeah, pick whatever stat you want, McDavid's not lapping the field offensively, at least not so far this season.

Hope that cleared things up.

(edit Ovi context)

 

[gretzkyoilers]

Hi s 153 point season was a fluke as was the 2024 playoff 42 points and Conn Smythe.

He's McDone!

 

[Jordan Belfort]

Kucherov
Mackinnon
Makar
Barkov

Mcdavid barely top 5, or do you have more players ahead?

Kucherov
Mack
Makar
Drai
Barkov
Kaprizov (this year)
Hughes

And rest is kind of wash. Mcdavid could probably fit in there after Hughes.


Mcdavid has 0 goals and 5 assists in his last 5 games.

1 goal, yes 1 goal in his last 10 games. 14 points which is good, but something is up. He is not dominant as he once was

 

[koyvoo]

I really miss the days of clever, high effort Internet trolling.

When done correctly, it is a skillful art.

Some of these posts are just people going to tremendous lengths to prove a lack of intelligence and critical thinking.

 

[McFlash97]

HF is where Internet trolls go to succeed. Not Die.

This thread is living proof.

 

[thegazelle]

For other players, I may consider the lull scenario, but I would never count out McDavid at any juncture.

 

[Hank Plank]

This thread really just shows that the mains are where intelligence goes to die. It's like the Twitter of hockey.

The door is right over there. Bye.

 

[nturn06]

You're missing the context.

The context is some guy said McDavid was 'far and away the best point producer in the NHL' right now, I didn't think that was true. I picked P/60 to evaluate because I thought it would be the most obvious / require the least explanation while also requiring zero effort to compile. It also happens to be the stat I'd choose to evaluate that particular claim (actually this sentence is more relevant than the last one).

Anyway I didn't cherry pick the stat, I literally went into NST and sorted by P/60 this year without even bothering to include a games played filter. What I did was literally the opposite of cherry picking, you can throw accusations however you want, I honestly don't care.

My point -- my only point -- is that McDavid isn't far and away the best producer in the NHL this season, and he's not even close to that level, which is kind of what this thread is about, actually.

Anyway I'm not especially married to points per 60, though as I said above that's the first stat I'd look at to try to evaluate production. Obviously in order to use this stat to compare ppl, you need them to have similar ice time and deployment, so that's why to me McDavid being materially lower than Kaprizov, Kucherov, Eichel (all first line players used in similar ways) is esp applicable in showing he's not playing a level above those guys. Differences in 5v5 ice time is also why I personally don't think it's right to compare him to Ovi (who is far and away the league leader in this particular stat) which is what I said in last msg.

But yeah, pick whatever stat you want, McDavid's not lapping the field offensively, at least not so far this season.

Hope that cleared things up.

(edit Ovi context)

Wait, now I am confused. You say you posted P/60 but the table you posted is a different stat, did you realize that?

And you keep saying that you agree taht this stat is not important, but seems to be a hill you are willing to die on.

 

[PainForShane]

Wait, now I am confused. You say you posted P/60 but the table you posted is a different stat, did you realize that?

And you keep saying that you agree taht this stat is not important, but seems to be a hill you are willing to die on.

Might want to consider learning how to read column headers in a table. And then consider learning how to follow a conversation. As an example if someone says, "pick whatever stat you want," you always have the option to look up the meaning of those words in a dictionary if needed. Good luck

 

[Voight]

Growing up, Thursday nights were my nirvana (before Nirvana). I'd eat caramel corn and ice cream for dinner after swimming & hockey practice, while waiting for sisters to return from Gymnastics and Dad to return from... well the pub I suppose. Fond memories of Gretzky and Kurri tucking me into a recliner most Thursday nights.

... and then he ripped my heart out after we drove 3 hours to the Peg, only to watch him get shutout by Freddy Brathwaite.

To wit... it's not just zoomers putting Gretzky on that pedestal, and you saw ONE game. There are PLENTY of Oiler fans who remember both live and have no issues whatsoever making room for McDavid on hockey's Mount Rushmore.

I dont know why but this made me laugh harder than it should've.

 

[Video Nasty]

I seem to recall you always looking down on crosby for finishing third in league scoring b2b years at 27-28 years old. Now mcdavid is on a similar trajectory. You were laughing off the notion that mcdavid may not be sweeping rosses every year. N now look at where we are.

You recall mostly correctly.

I look down on Crosby finishing third those two seasons (and never winning a scoring title past the age of 26 and only one past the age of 19) because he finished behind Benn twice, Tavares, and got annihilated by Kane, while healthy.

It hits a little different than finishing behind talent like Kucherov and MacKinnon having their peak seasons while McDavid had a nagging upper body injury all season long and then was shut down early after a lower body injury to rest up for a playoff run that culminated in losing by 1 goal in 7 games in the Finals and being awarded the Conn Smythe after breaking Gretzky’s assists record and owning the most points in a playoff run after him and Mario. This season is still in progress. Let’s see how it unfolds.

I have always contended that I can see McDavid winning 6-8 Art Rosses. Barring missing more games, I think he scoops up that sixth a few months from now and adds the Cup and a second Conn Smythe a couple months after that.

 

[crowfish]

The reason I brought up 5v5 is because you cherry picked your stats to not include empty netters and that was comical lol.

So comical making the distinction between scoring vs a goalie (what the sport is) vs an empty net (situational strategy for teams losing by 2 or less goals in the final minutes of the game)

Just cherry-picking. In related news, fraud point #12 tonight for MacKinnon. More than McDavid has ever had in a season, and we are halfway through the season... lol. For context, McDavid has 12 empty net points in the past 3 seasons (194 games played)

 

[Zalos]

I still take McDavid over any other player in the league tomorrow.

 

[Video Nasty]

So comical making the distinction between scoring vs a goalie (what the sport is) vs an empty net (situational strategy for teams losing by 2 or less goals in the final minutes of the game)

Just cherry-picking. In related news, fraud point #12 tonight for MacKinnon. More than McDavid has ever had in a season, and we are halfway through the season... lol. For context, McDavid has 12 empty net points in the past 3 seasons (194 games played)

He knows he needs every freebie he can get to fend off McDavid, Draisaitl, and Kucherov. It’s going to be amazing if he fails to collect the Art Ross again, despite 20-25 ENP.

 

[daver]

MacKinnon adds an EN 2nd assist after reading this thread.

 

[94 Oil Drops]

McDavid has a pretty good track record of making people who doubt him look stupid. He is having a down year (so far) in terms of production but Draisaitl is driving the bus right now so it doesn't exactly hurt the Oilers. I'm personally not worried about it much. This also proves to everyone once and for all that Draisaitl is not a product of McDavid.

McDavid's greatness is undeniable but his most important work is yet to be complete. He has nothing to prove except that he can win the trophy that matters most. I think we have yet to witness his magnum opus but he may finish it this June.