Value of: A 2nd line center to Montreal.

[Gaud]

Id argue Suzuki is your 2C and you need a true 1C to be elite.

What do you consider a true 1C? What do you consider elite?

Suzuki is 9th in points, 8th in even strength points, 3rd in OT goals. 51 percent in the face off circle. +11 on a middling team. Strong leadership, elevates his teammates. Plays PK and PP, blocks shots, ranked 12th in centers for takeaways. He does all of those things against the opposing team's best players every night.

For me, a good debate is whether he has the potential to be a top 10 C in the league. I think he is already in the top 15; he is headed for a PPG season while playing a solid two way game.

I don't think there is much of a debate as to whether he is a #2 or #1C, personally.

 

[Benstheman]

Id argue Suzuki is your 2C and you need a true 1C to be elite.

Suzuki is solid 1C and plays 2-way game who counters other teams ''elite 1C'' with big success most of the time.

What we need is a solid 2C that can take a bit of Nick's load against other teams top line. Our top 6 wingers will be so solid offensively that a 55-60 pts 2C will be enough for us. A guy like Bo Horvat would be the perfect kind of guy.

 

[landy]

You can "argue" that all you want, but it's an absurd take and nobody will take you seriously.

Do you really believe that? Obviously he is not big boy tier top 10-20 centers, and he is probably in that low 20ish range right on the edge of 30 guys youd take ahead of him, but this is the first season he is a ppg player.

Similar problem in Buffalo and probably needs its own thread, but Tage Thompson sucks at faceoffs, defense, and passing. Dude should be ovi parked in the corner ripping onsies. I can easily argue Buffalo doesnt have a 1C nor 2C and Tage should be a LW. Im not saying that about Nick, but holy hell would the Habvs actually be scary if Suzuki was their 2C and they had someone better ahead of him.

 

[landy]

Imo Suzuki is more on the Hintz/Johnston tier. Could either show up as any teams 1C and put up points? Sure, but that doesnt make them a true 1C like MacKinnon, McDavid, Crosby, Scheifele, Kopitar, Matthews, Point, Aho, Stutzle, and soon Bedard and Celbrini. Is he better than a lot of centers on the NHL stat sheet, sure, but hes a low tier 1C at best and would be better served as the 2nd guy up.

 

[Kosseca]

Ah the usual mature, what is your avatar, o I will find something negative to say about your team play.

You seem fun to discuss hockey with here.

his question was without regards to your avatar. You are the one coming across as immature

 

[Benstheman]

Ah the usual mature, what is your avatar, o I will find something negative to say about your team play.

You seem fun to discuss hockey with here.

WTF are you even talking about?

I was making a point that Suzuki is playing against top opposition constantly and elite 1Cs like MacKinnon all the time. And you know what?? Like yesterday, most of the time has the better end of it.

He is top 10 in offensive stats for C in the league and is elite defensively. Pretty solid on FO. While he doesn't show elite offensive stats like the Mckinnon, Draisitl, McDavid and Eichel, he simply has no weakness.

 

[landy]

his question was without regards to your avatar. You are the one coming across as immature

Because Im not subscribing to the pump up Habs fan thread because the team is playing ok for the first time in a decade ignoring the asterisk covid seasons?

He s a fine player but reminds me of Kadri circa 2022 who was better suited to be a 2C getting weaker matchups, playing well defensively, but still get PP1 time.

He has 20 points in 13 since the break (1.53 ppg). Is he this player or is he the 52 in 56 (.93 ppg) player before the break? Hes young enough obviously to be coming into his prime, but history has shown him to be a 70s point player and I am arguing that is what he is vs the 125 point pace he is on in this small sample size that woke Habs fans up to get excited about something.

 

[landy]

WTF are you even talking about?

I was making a point that Suzuki is playing against top opposition constantly and elite 1Cs like MacKinnon all the time. And you know what?? Like yesterday, most of the time has the better end of it.

He is top 10 in offensive stats for C in the league and is elite defensively. Pretty solid on FO. While he doesn't show elite offensive stats like the Mckinnon, Draisitl, McDavid and Eichel, he simply has no weakness.

Why would you bring up MacKinnon and not McDavid or Matthews or any other true 1C in the league?

You realize the Habs got caved in for most of the game outside of a 7 min stretch right?

 

[Captain97]

Id argue Suzuki is your 2C and you need a true 1C to be elite.

Thus narrative is ridiculous, if you remove Reinhart and Necas since they don't actually play C. Suzuki is 7th in scoring league wide amongst centres and is excellent defensively.

Are you saying only 6 teams have a 1C in the league?

Edit: 5 teams Drai and Mcdavid being the the same team.

 

[Kosseca]

Because Im not subscribing to the pump up Habs fan thread because the team is playing ok for the first time in a decade ignoring the asterisk covid seasons?

He s a fine player but reminds me of Kadri circa 2022 who was better suited to be a 2C getting weaker matchups, playing well defensively, but still get PP1 time.

He has 20 points in 13 since the break (1.53 ppg). Is he this player or is he the 52 in 56 (.93 ppg) player before the break? Hes young enough obviously to be coming into his prime, but history has shown him to be a 70s point player and I am arguing that is what he is vs the 125 point pace he is on in this small sample size that woke Habs fans up to get excited about something.

your opinion is yours and to be honest I dont give a s*** about it.

My post was a reaction to yours where your are taking offense with the other poster comment taking it all out of context. That was an immature reaction.

 

[Benstheman]

Why would you bring up MacKinnon and not McDavid or Matthews or any other true 1C in the league?

You realize the Habs got caved in for most of the game outside of a 7 min stretch right?

Because they just played him and he is the best NHL player. But Suzuki did the same thing with McDavid and al. Go check it out.

We got caved 1st half of the game and get the best out of second half. But I'm not here to debate whether the Habs are as good as the Avs.

I don't know where you are going with this but your evaluation of Suzuki feels like 2022.

 

[TheNewEra]

Suzuki is solid 1C and plays 2-way game who counters other teams ''elite 1C'' with big success most of the time.

What we need is a solid 2C that can take a bit of Nick's load against other teams top line. Our top 6 wingers will be so solid offensively that a 55-60 pts 2C will be enough for us. A guy like Bo Horvat would be the perfect kind of guy.

horvat is a solid target

couturier has some term but he fits the description if the flyers are willing to move him
kadri
seguin (if he waives since dallas does need the cap space this offseason)

maybe duchene/granlund in FA (granlund is more likely available)

 

[landy]

Because they just played him and he is the best NHL player. But Suzuki did the same thing with McDavid and al. Go check it out.

We got caved 1st half of the game and get the best out of second half. But I'm not here to debate whether the Habs are as good as the Avs.

I don't know where you are going with this but your evaluation of Suzuki feels like 2022.

This entire thread is an overreaction of Suzuki since the break. Maybe he is finally hitting his potential, but id lean towards the 429 game sample size vs 13. Its a simple argument that he would be a great 2C on a contender or a 1C on a lottery team. You disagree, but showed an immense amount of butthurt in the process. Thats ok also.

But I do give you props for calling out the correct best player in the world.

 

[Gaud]

Imo Suzuki is more on the Hintz/Johnston tier. Could either show up as any teams 1C and put up points? Sure, but that doesnt make them a true 1C like MacKinnon, McDavid, Crosby, Scheifele, Kopitar, Matthews, Point, Aho, Stutzle, and soon Bedard and Celbrini. Is he better than a lot of centers on the NHL stat sheet, sure, but hes a low tier 1C at best and would be better served as the 2nd guy up.

Because Im not subscribing to the pump up Habs fan thread because the team is playing ok for the first time in a decade ignoring the asterisk covid seasons?

He s a fine player but reminds me of Kadri circa 2022 who was better suited to be a 2C getting weaker matchups, playing well defensively, but still get PP1 time.

He has 20 points in 13 since the break (1.53 ppg). Is he this player or is he the 52 in 56 (.93 ppg) player before the break? Hes young enough obviously to be coming into his prime, but history has shown him to be a 70s point player and I am arguing that is what he is vs the 125 point pace he is on in this small sample size that woke Habs fans up to get excited about something.

I feel like your argument is shifting with each counter argument.

You listed 11 people there that you think are better and in a higher tier. Last season, Suzuki had 77 points, ahead of Scheifele, Stutzle and Kopitar. This year He is ahead of Stutzle, Point, Aho, Matthews, Kopitar in points alone.

You mention Kadri succeeding because he is suited to getting better matchups, but Suzuki is thriving in those harder matchups every night. Your arguments seem to hint that Suzuki hasn't proven anything but you include Celebrini and Bedard in your list of better centers.

What started this debate was that you thought Suzuki was better suited at 2C, then he became "a low tier C at best", and that's before adding that he's "obviously ... coming into his prime", which suggests further growth.

This debate is common on HF boards - complete players aren't getting the respect they deserve. To me, a guy that gets 100 pts but is useless defensively is the same as a guy that gets 80 and prevents 20 goals. Barkov is criminaly underrated. I also just realized Bergeron never had an 80 pt season, but no one seems to dispute that he was a 1C

 

[Benstheman]

This entire thread is an overreaction of Suzuki since the break. Maybe he is finally hitting his potential, but id lean towards the 429 game sample size vs 13. Its a simple argument that he would be a great 2C on a contender or a 1C on a lottery team. You disagree, but showed an immense amount of butthurt in the process. Thats ok also.

But I do give you props for calling out the correct best player in the world.

Doesn't make sense at all. Suzuki is 25 yo and just entering his prime. He also showed pretty constant upgrade in his offensive production. The guy is having a standard and constant development curve. Your 429 games sample size argument would be valid he was 30 years old, not 25 years old.

Yes he is great since the 4 nations but all in all, he is still PPG in his last 151 last games

 

[Benstheman]

Oh and Suzuki never misses a game.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

I never realized how underrated Nick Suzuki is but holy hell, it's bad.

Obviously he is nowhere of the likes of McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, Barkov and all top tier center but he is clearly not a 2nd line center either.

Suzuki kind of reminds me the St.Louis blues with Kyrou/Thomas with the exception of only having 1 of them or Larkin with the Red Wings.

Suzuki is a first line center and the habs would need a legit 2nd line center (a guy like Horvat would make sense) to have a better chance at competing for the cup.

The lunacy that you need McDavid or McDavid or Celebrini is irrealistic and quite stupid to br fair, these players are drafted 1st overall, very rare and no team in their right mind would trade one of them because they are core to their team winning the league. Basically any team with a player like them should keep them at all cost unless you are the Sabres.

 

[landy]

I feel like your argument is shifting with each counter argument.

You listed 11 people there that you think are better and in a higher tier. Last season, Suzuki had 77 points, ahead of Scheifele, Stutzle and Kopitar. This year He is ahead of Stutzle, Point, Aho, Matthews, Kopitar in points alone.

You mention Kadri succeeding because he is suited to getting better matchups, but Suzuki is thriving in those harder matchups every night. Your arguments seem to hint that Suzuki hasn't proven anything but you include Celebrini and Bedard in your list of better centers.

What started this debate was that you thought Suzuki was better suited at 2C, then he became "a low tier C at best", and that's before adding that he's "obviously ... coming into his prime", which suggests further growth.

This debate is common on HF boards - complete players aren't getting the respect they deserve. To me, a guy that gets 100 pts but is useless defensively is the same as a guy that gets 80 and prevents 20 goals. Barkov is criminaly underrated. I also just realized Bergeron never had an 80 pt season, but no one seems to dispute that he was a 1C

Is he one of the 32 best centers in the league at this moment? Yes. So that would make him a 1C by definition.

Honestly some very good points there regarding Barkov and Bergeron going off points only and their true value. A lot of gymnastics needed if we are strictly going off point totals, but then flipping the narrative to defensive matchups. If we want to put him in that defensive forward tier, sounds great, but Id also argue youre reaching a ton here whule using the word "thriving".

Until 13 games ago, he was a middling 70 point player. Now the Habs are playing ok and he is getting attention/credit, but you guys are all assuming he is the 125 pace point player which IMO is ridiculous.

He is the best player on a bad team getting the most minutes, similar to Hutson right now. I want a larger sample size to see it. Until then he is a 1C on a bad team and a 2C on a good team.

 

[landy]

I never realized how underrated Nick Suzuki is but holy hell, it's bad.

Obviously he is nowhere of the likes of McDavid, MacKinnon, Matthews, Barkov and all top tier center but he is clearly not a 2nd line center either.

Suzuki kind of reminds me the St.Louis blues with Kyrou/Thomas with the exception of only having 1 of them or Larkin with the Red Wings.

Suzuki is a first line center and the habs would need a legit 2nd line center (a guy like Horvat would make sense) to have a better chance at competing for the cup.

The lunacy that you need McDavid or McDavid or Celebrini is irrealistic and quite stupid to br fair, these players are drafted 1st overall, very rare and no team in their right mind would trade one of them because they are core to their team winning the league. Basically any team with a player like them should keep them at all cost unless you are the Sabres.

They won the lottery in the wrong year. Exactly my point in what a rebuild would be right now if they had Bedard or Celebrini as the 2C today, with them being groomed for the 1C soon bumping Suzuki down to where he belongs taking the tough D matchups (if we really believe in his 2 way game, but also playing PP1 time getting the points).

 

[Benstheman]

Is he one of the 32 best centers in the league at this moment? Yes. So that would make him a 1C by definition.

Honestly some very good points there regarding Barkov and Bergeron going off points only and their true value. A lot of gymnastics needed if we are strictly going off point totals, but then flipping the narrative to defensive matchups. If we want to put him in that defensive forward tier, sounds great, but Id also argue youre reaching a ton here whule using the word "thriving".

Until 13 games ago, he was a middling 70 point player. Now the Habs are playing ok and he is getting attention/credit, but you guys are all assuming he is the 125 pace point player which IMO is ridiculous.

He is the best player on a bad team getting the most minutes, similar to Hutson right now. I want a larger sample size to see it. Until then he is a 1C on a bad team and a 2C on a good team.

I quit...

 

[Essenege]

This entire thread is an overreaction of Suzuki since the break. Maybe he is finally hitting his potential, but id lean towards the 429 game sample size vs 13. Its a simple argument that he would be a great 2C on a contender or a 1C on a lottery team. You disagree, but showed an immense amount of butthurt in the process. Thats ok also.

But I do give you props for calling out the correct best player in the world.

What the hell are you talking about? Suzuki has steadily improved his PPG every season. He was just short of PPG last year with 33 goals.

Everything in the 400 games sample screams that current production is sustainable.

Low IQ take.

 

[Gaud]

Is he one of the 32 best centers in the league at this moment? Yes. So that would make him a 1C by definition.

Honestly some very good points there regarding Barkov and Bergeron going off points only and their true value. A lot of gymnastics needed if we are strictly going off point totals, but then flipping the narrative to defensive matchups. If we want to put him in that defensive forward tier, sounds great, but Id also argue youre reaching a ton here whule using the word "thriving".

Until 13 games ago, he was a middling 70 point player. Now the Habs are playing ok and he is getting attention/credit, but you guys are all assuming he is the 125 pace point player which IMO is ridiculous.

He is the best player on a bad team getting the most minutes, similar to Hutson right now. I want a larger sample size to see it. Until then he is a 1C on a bad team and a 2C on a good team.

I dont think anyone assumes 125 points. However, even if he stays at 77 points like last year.. this is still good for 15th amongst C for points.

That streak you refer to started when he asked Kent Hughes to not trade anyone before the trade deadline. KH told him that he needed to see more for that to happen, and the kid response with 13 points to lead his team to a 5 games winning streak at the TDL. I am not as impressed by that streak as what this did to the team; kid's got character and seems to be pulling his team forward.

Suzuki does play the most amongst the habs' forwards. Isnt it normal for a #1C? But he also plays the hardest minutes - against the best elements the other team has, even in PK. He also has a lesser team helping him than many of the other players listed.

 

[malcb33]

Is he one of the 32 best centers in the league at this moment? Yes. So that would make him a 1C by definition.

Honestly some very good points there regarding Barkov and Bergeron going off points only and their true value. A lot of gymnastics needed if we are strictly going off point totals, but then flipping the narrative to defensive matchups. If we want to put him in that defensive forward tier, sounds great, but Id also argue youre reaching a ton here whule using the word "thriving".

Until 13 games ago, he was a middling 70 point player. Now the Habs are playing ok and he is getting attention/credit, but you guys are all assuming he is the 125 pace point player which IMO is ridiculous.

He is the best player on a bad team getting the most minutes, similar to Hutson right now. I want a larger sample size to see it. Until then he is a 1C on a bad team and a 2C on a good team.

You should probably watch Suzuki more before you pigeonhole him as a 2C.

Your whole point of view comes across as Colorado's roster construction being the only way to be a successful team. There's only a handful of those top-tier 1C's, and their teams don't win every year...

 

[BleedBlue14]

Not sure any young top 6 centers are going to be available in futures deals. Be better off surfing the rental market or market of nearly 30 year olds and hope one sticks around after their contract is up and can fill the hole for 3-4 years while you draft or develop one.

Is Owen Beck not viewed as an NHL center?

 

[FiveTacos]

You can "argue" that all you want, but it's an absurd take and nobody will take you seriously.

Well to be fair ... if they found a C good enough to make Suzuki their 2C, they'd probably have the best 1-2 punch in the league. You wouldn't say no to that.

But of course that's kind of a pointless hypothetical ... it's hard enough to try to trade for a 2C, now you're supposed to find an elite 1C better than Suzuki? Oh sure, the Habs will get right on that, dunno why they didn't think to try and get one earlier. Just kinda forgot I guess.

Not sure any young top 6 centers are going to be available in futures deals.

That's the thing, they're usually not, unless there's another issue involved (contract, injuries, inconsistency, etc). And a young top 6 C is valuable enough that someone out there will offer something more than just picks and prospects they won't miss.