GDT: #9 | Canadiens at Flyers | Sunday, October 27, 2024 | 7:00 PM | NBCSP, 93.3 FM

[JojoTheWhale]

If brilliant GMs could turn around aging, mediocre franchises with amazing trades, it would happen all the time.
Even Zito started with Barkov (25), Huberdeau (27), Weegar (27), Ekblad (24), and Bob in goal.
He had a great run his first year,

2/24/20 Trocheck for Luostarinen, Haula & Wallmark
4/12/21 2nd rd & Heineman for Bennett
7/24/21 1st and Levi for Reinhart
but
7/26/21 2nd & Stralman & Kolyavhonok for cap relief
3/16/22 2023 1st, 2022 4th for Chariot (rental)
3/19/22 Tippett, 2024 1st, 2023, 3rd for Giroux (rental)
3/20/22 6th rd pick for Hagg
7/22/22 Huberdeau, Weegar, 2025 1st for Tkachuk and 4th
3/8/24 2024 3rd, 2025 3rd for Tarasenko

His real skill was rummaging through the NHL trash heap:
2/19/20 Malgin for Marchment
10/9/20 Verhaeghe SFA
10/9/20 Weenberg SFA
10/9/20 Gudas FA
10/9/20 Lomberg SFA
12/18/20 Duclair SFA
1/9/21 Forsling (claimed off waivers)
4/10/21 3rd for Montour

but now he's just signing patches:
7/13/22 C White
7/13/22 Cousins
10/10/22 Mahura (claimed off waivers)
10/21/22 E Staal FA
7/1/23 OEL
7/1/23 Kulikov
7/1/23 Mikkola 3/$9M
7/2/23 E Rodriques 4/12M
7/1/24 Boqvist
7/1/24 AJ Greer
7/2/24 Nate Schmidt
Balinskis SFA




Drafting under Zito has been meh at best
2020: Lundell #14
2021: Samoskevich #24
are the only NHL players so far since he took over.

Deady. The December 2018 Flyers were an aging mediocre franchise? Is that really what we're going with here?

 

[Beef Invictus]

To absolve everyone involved but put it all on Holmgren.

The attempt to form a narrative is almost political.

Holmgren, who we are told for no discernible reason is retired now, despite being in the same spot he's always been. Because that means Briere isn't worthy of respect, and we cannot have that.

We are only 2-3 years away from hearing about how Briere and the same management group in place for nearly a decade is actually blame free because of Holmgren, who wasn't actually retired but definitely is now


I mean, the sheer amount of work that is required to weave a reality where the Flyers aren't fully to blame for themselves seems exhausting. And for what? What is the point?

 

[deadhead]

Holmgren, who we are told for no discernible reason is retired now, despite being in the same spot he's always been. Because that means Briere isn't worthy of respect, and we cannot have that.

We are only 2-3 years away from hearing about how Briere and the same management group in place for nearly a decade is actually blame free because of Holmgren, who wasn't actually retired but definitely is now


I mean, the sheer amount of work that is required to weave a reality where the Flyers aren't fully to blame for themselves seems exhausting. And for what? What is the point?

Did Holmgren refuse to rebuild after the Carter/Richards trades?
Did Holmgren refuse to rebuild after the 2018-19 debacle?
Did Holmgren hire Fletcher and AV?
Did Holmgren make it clear that Fletcher's mandate was to make the playoffs?

Fletcher's sin was that he was mediocre when this franchise needed both luck and a miracle worker.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Did Holmgren refuse to rebuild after the Carter/Richards trades?
Did Holmgren refuse to rebuild after the 2018-19 debacle?
Did Holmgren hire Fletcher and AV?
Did Holmgren make it clear that Fletcher's mandate was to make the playoffs?

Fletcher's sin was that he was mediocre when this franchise needed both luck and a miracle worker.

Did Holmgren order Fletcher to do a bad job on purpose? Was he ordered to deliberately create a bad team in this quest to win? If the answer is "no" and he was bad anyway, then every one of those things is irrelevant.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Every GM in every sport (aside from the Orioles for a time, perhaps) have existed under orders to make the team good. Being expected to make the team good and competitive is not an excuse for accomplishing to total opposite.


Also, Fletcher hired AV.

Hell, just on this whole "mandate to make the playoffs." Fletcher failed at that didn't he? There is not a version of reality you can make where Fletcher wasn't a shitty little pathetic failure and the offspring of a dude who defends pedophiles; which he probably helped with, honestly.

This dude doesn't deserve your level of devotion or defense in any way.

 

[freakydallas13]

Did Holmgren refuse to rebuild after the Carter/Richards trades?

"Did Holmgren refuse to rebuild immediately after he made the two most rebuilding moves this franchise has ever seen?"

Truly much to consider.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Did Holmgren refuse to rebuild after the Carter/Richards trades?
Did Holmgren refuse to rebuild after the 2018-19 debacle?
Did Holmgren hire Fletcher and AV?
Did Holmgren make it clear that Fletcher's mandate was to make the playoffs?

Fletcher's sin was that he was mediocre when this franchise needed both luck and a miracle worker.

Under Hextall, Briere and Fletcher. What talent have the Flyers amassed.

A load of mediocre shit, with one Michkov on top.

 

[Beef Invictus]

"Did Holmgren refuse to rebuild immediately after he made the two most rebuilding moves this franchise has ever seen?"

Truly much to consider.

Holmgren: Not a rebuilder

Briere: A rebuilder


Holmgren Rebuilding Moves: 2
Briere Rebuilding Moves: -3


Hmmm

 

[deadhead]

Every GM in every sport (aside from the Orioles for a time, perhaps) have existed under orders to make the team good. Being expected to make the team good and competitive is not an excuse for accomplishing to total opposite.


Also, Fletcher hired AV.

You really think Fletcher hired AV? You think Fletcher could approve a 5x5 contract?

Fletcher did make this team competitive, at the cost of assets needed to stay competitive.
He also had bad luck with Patrick, Lindblom and Ellis.
Trades
2/16/19 Talbot (pending UFA) for Stolarz (pending UFA)
2/25/19 Hartman & 4th for Simmonds
6/3/19 sign Hayes
6/14/19 Niskanen for Gudas
6/18/19 Braun for 2019 2nd, 2020 3rd
6/24/19 Pitlick for Hartman (Dallas then let him walk)

7/17/21 Ellis for Patrick & Myers
7/22/21 cap relief for Ghost, 2nd rd pick
7/23/21 Risto for 2021 1st, 2023 3rd
7/24/21 Atkinson for Voracek

The Hayes, Braun, Niskanen moves got them to the playoffs in 2019-20
Hayes was an overpay, so was Duchene (the two major FA centers) due to COVID and a flat cap.

They brought in Yandle, Brassard and MacEwen in 2021.
Voracek/Atkinson was a wash.
Ghost was a loss, but if Ellis is healthy, this move might have made sense.
Risto was an overpay, but that's what "win now" teams do.

What stands out is how little CF did after the summer of 2019 in terms of building depth.
They grossly overvalued their own players.

3/19/22 Giroux for 1st, 3rd, Tippett
3/21/22 3rd for Braun
7/8/22 TDA for 2nd, 3rd, 4th

The last year CF went off the rails. This sequence makes no sense.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You really think Fletcher hired AV? You think Fletcher could approve a 5x5 contract?

Fletcher did make this team competitive, at the cost of assets needed to stay competitive.
He also had bad luck with Patrick, Lindblom and Ellis.
Trades
2/16/19 Talbot (pending UFA) for Stolarz (pending UFA)
2/25/19 Hartman & 4th for Simmonds
6/3/19 sign Hayes
6/14/19 Niskanen for Gudas
6/18/19 Braun for 2019 2nd, 2020 3rd
6/24/19 Pitlick for Hartman (Dallas then let him walk)

7/17/21 Ellis for Patrick & Myers
7/22/21 cap relief for Ghost, 2nd rd pick
7/23/21 Risto for 2021 1st, 2023 3rd
7/24/21 Atkinson for Voracek

The Hayes, Braun, Niskanen moves got them to the playoffs in 2019-20
Hayes was an overpay, so was Duchene (the two major FA centers) due to COVID and a flat cap.

They brought in Yandle, Brassard and MacEwen in 2021.
Voracek/Atkinson was a wash.
Ghost was a loss, but if Ellis is healthy, this move might have made sense.
Risto was an overpay, but that's what "win now" teams do.

What stands out is how little CF did after the summer of 2019 in terms of building depth.
They grossly overvalued their own players.

3/19/22 Giroux for 1st, 3rd, Tippett
3/21/22 3rd for Braun
7/8/22 TDA for 2nd, 3rd, 4th

The last year CF went off the rails. This sequence makes no sense.

As President and GM, yes, Fletcher could approve it and he did. He hired AV.

Very little of Fletcher's career in general makes any sense. He almost never thought more than a few weeks in advance. Hence why he relied so very heavily on buyouts when he could.

Fletcher was told to make the team good. He failed at that. There is no way to assess his tenure, or dream up any scenario, where he didn't fail.

 

[deadhead]

He wasn't President when he was hired. Holmgren was.

Q was their first choice. "The Athletic’s George Richards reported that the Flyers outbid the Panthers for Quenneville in terms of guaranteed money"

"That’s been obvious not just in the recent words of general manager Chuck Fletcher, but also the decision months ago from higher-ups in the organization to change course from the patient-to-a-fault philosophy of Ron Hextall. . . . . They felt the “retooling” had gone on long enough, and advocated for a “bias for action” that would drive an aggressive offseason."

"The impact of the higher-ups in the organization on this decision shouldn’t be ignored. That’s not to say they forced Fletcher into the hire; his rundown of how the 57-year-old Vigneault checked all of his boxes implies that he’s either extremely excited about the hire or very good at selling the move. But the desire of ownership to make waves this summer is a real factor, and Fletcher knows it. After all, Comcast Spectacor chairman/chief executive officer Dave Scott and team president Paul Holmgren made clear their desire for aggressiveness out of the team’s next GM before Fletcher even signed on to take the job."

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/926717/2019/04/16/flyers-big-name-big-money-hire-of-alain-vigneault-reflects-their-ambition-is-he-the-right-man-for-the-moment/

 

[Beef Invictus]

He wasn't President when he was hired. Holmgren was.

Q was their first choice. "The Athletic’s George Richards reported that the Flyers outbid the Panthers for Quenneville in terms of guaranteed money"

"That’s been obvious not just in the recent words of general manager Chuck Fletcher, but also the decision months ago from higher-ups in the organization to change course from the patient-to-a-fault philosophy of Ron Hextall. . . . . They felt the “retooling” had gone on long enough, and advocated for a “bias for action” that would drive an aggressive offseason."

"The impact of the higher-ups in the organization on this decision shouldn’t be ignored. That’s not to say they forced Fletcher into the hire; his rundown of how the 57-year-old Vigneault checked all of his boxes implies that he’s either extremely excited about the hire or very good at selling the move. But the desire of ownership to make waves this summer is a real factor, and Fletcher knows it. After all, Comcast Spectacor chairman/chief executive officer Dave Scott and team president Paul Holmgren made clear their desire for aggressiveness out of the team’s next GM before Fletcher even signed on to take the job."

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/926717/2019/04/16/flyers-big-name-big-money-hire-of-alain-vigneault-reflects-their-ambition-is-he-the-right-man-for-the-moment/

So as we've always said, he had free reign and an open checkbook to do whatever he wanted as Clarke's protege, and he completely fornicated a barnload of animals with it

None of this serves as a defense of Fletcher. He failed miserably with ample resources to pursue his path. He made clearly wrong choices, repeatedly. You defend this religiously for no reason anyone can fathom.

 

[deadhead]

He didn't fail miserably, he got them to the 2nd rd of the playoffs.
That's what the FO wanted, that's what they got.
Nor did he expend a lot of assets the first two years, cap room for Hayes (but Filppula was a $5M hit), 2nd/3rd rd pick for Braun.

It wasn't his moves that crashed the team in 2020-21, it was the flawed idea it was good enough to be competitive. When Niskanen retired, the lack of depth became obvious.

2020-21 roster
forwards: G (33), Couts (28), Voracek (31), JVR (31), Hayes (28), TK (23), Laughton (26), Farabee (20), Raffl (32), Allison (23), Lindblom (24), Patrick (22), NAK (24) [Frost (21)]
defense: Provorov (24), Sanheim (24), Myers (24), Ghost (27), Braun (33), Hagg (25) [York 20]

You're the GM, what do you do with this aging roster where most of your young players will be out of the league in 3 years: Allison, Lindblom, Patrick, Myers, Hagg.
If you keep Voracek and Ghost, the team will be no better the next season.
There's no cap room to add FAs.

 

[Beef Invictus]

He didn't fail miserably, he got them to the 2nd rd of the playoffs.
That's what the FO wanted, that's what they got.
Nor did he expend a lot of assets the first two years, cap room for Hayes (but Filppula was a $5M hit), 2nd/3rd rd pick for Braun.

It wasn't his moves that crashed the team in 2020-21, it was the flawed idea it was good enough to be competitive. When Niskanen retired, the lack of depth became obvious.

2020-21 roster
forwards: G (33), Couts (28), Voracek (31), JVR (31), Hayes (28), TK (23), Laughton (26), Farabee (20), Raffl (32), Allison (23), Lindblom (24), Patrick (22), NAK (24) [Frost (21)]
defense: Provorov (24), Sanheim (24), Myers (24), Ghost (27), Braun (33), Hagg (25) [York 20]

You're the GM, what do you do with this aging roster where most of your young players will be out of the league in 3 years: Allison, Lindblom, Patrick, Myers, Hagg.
If you keep Voracek and Ghost, the team will be no better the next season.
There's no cap room to add FAs.

You assertion is that the Front Office wanted a single playoff round win in 5 years? So he accomplished his mission and therefore did a good job?


This message is completely incompatible with the "win now" mandate you push. The openly conflict with each other.

 

[deadhead]

You assertion is that the Front Office wanted a single playoff round win in 5 years? So he accomplished his mission and therefore did a good job?


This message is completely incompatible with the "win now" mandate you push. The openly conflict with each other.

They wanted him to take aggressive moves to get back into the playoffs.
He did so, they got back into the playoffs.
If Lindblom and Patrick are healthy, maybe they make the playoffs one more time before the wheels come off.
But first Lindblom, then Patrick, then in 2021, Ellis, Couts and Hayes go down, and it was over.

The problem was the problem since 2012, they simply didn't have enough talent to be SC contenders, patching things with trades and free agents didn't change that reality. Bad luck just made it obvious.

 

[Beef Invictus]

They wanted him to take aggressive moves to get back into the playoffs.
He did so, they got back into the playoffs.
If Lindblom and Patrick are healthy, maybe they make the playoffs one more time before the wheels come off.
But first Lindblom, then Patrick, then in 2021, Ellis, Couts and Hayes go down, and it was over.

The problem was the problem since 2012, they simply didn't have enough talent to be SC contenders, patching things with trades and free agents didn't change that reality. Bad luck just made it obvious.

So is this you affirming that all Managment wanted was a single playoff appearance in half a decade? It wasn't a "win now" mandate, but a "be average, once" mandate? And Fletcher did that, therefore his tenure was a success?

 

[FlyerNutter]

Who is “they”

Would they still be involved in say, the hiring of Briere?

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Truly unbelievable.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Truly unbelievable.

Today we've learned that "Win Now" Mandate that was to blame for Fletcher's complete inability to win, did not actually exist. This was the chief defense of him. The fact it did not exist is also somehow a defense of him, since he didn't win and therefore he met expectations.

 

[Hanover Fist]

He didn't fail miserably, he got them to the 2nd rd of the playoffs.
That's what the FO wanted, that's what they got.
Nor did he expend a lot of assets the first two years, cap room for Hayes (but Filppula was a $5M hit), 2nd/3rd rd pick for Braun.

It wasn't his moves that crashed the team in 2020-21, it was the flawed idea it was good enough to be competitive. When Niskanen retired, the lack of depth became obvious.

2020-21 roster
forwards: G (33), Couts (28), Voracek (31), JVR (31), Hayes (28), TK (23), Laughton (26), Farabee (20), Raffl (32), Allison (23), Lindblom (24), Patrick (22), NAK (24) [Frost (21)]
defense: Provorov (24), Sanheim (24), Myers (24), Ghost (27), Braun (33), Hagg (25) [York 20]

You're the GM, what do you do with this aging roster where most of your young players will be out of the league in 3 years: Allison, Lindblom, Patrick, Myers, Hagg.
If you keep Voracek and Ghost, the team will be no better the next season.
There's no cap room to add FAs.

I would give Ghost and some assets and then turn around and give up more assets for Risto instead of using those assets since I knew my roster was aging out.

 

[Embiid]

"Did Holmgren refuse to rebuild immediately after he made the two most rebuilding moves this franchise has ever seen?"

Truly much to consider.

Meh we're splitting hairs with Holmgren. Guy had a very uneven stint as GM..started off great....regressed when he backed off his youth plan (throwing in picks with trades, breaking up the party boys etc)...then made a necessary big move with the Carter and Richards trade that set them on a reset path....then followed it up with pure trash moves like Lecavalier, AMAC, Eminger, Bryz, Bob etc.....the Bryz move (pressured by Snider) was pretty much his death knell along with his homerun swing falling short with Pronger. He also left the farm system destitute....

The comparisons to Fletcher's stint is a bit of a false equivalency. That dude was pure incompetence...

 

[Curufinwe]

Deady. The December 2018 Flyers were an aging mediocre franchise? Is that really what we're going with here?

It's a bit hard for me to follow what's going on, but in December 2018, Giroux was 30, Couturier was 26, Voracek was 29, TK was 21, JVR was 29, Ghost was 25, Sanheim was 22, Simmonds was 30 and Provorov was 21. I left off Lindblom and Patrick since there careers were ruined by injuries and illness.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[deadhead]

Fletcher moves his first two years were decent. They just didn't address the underlying problem.

Summer of 2021, would have made sense to some extent if Ellis was healthy, but again, didn't address the underlying problem. People get excited by losing Ghost and Voracek, but keeping them wouldn't make a difference - you would have been over the cap ($7.25M in cap room required to keep them) and that 2nd rd pick wouldn't garner you much. Packaging Risto's picks for one good player wouldn't move the needle very far. So much ado about nothing. They had 61 points, so they end up with 66 or even 71 points. Big deal.

Spring of 2023, he lost it.

Without a miracle worker GM, the results would have been similar.