GDT: #9 | Canadiens at Flyers | Sunday, October 27, 2024 | 7:00 PM | NBCSP, 93.3 FM

[Hanover Fist]

Bottom line is you gave up assets to dump ghost gave up more to acquire Risto which took three years to fix. Now you look to move Risto whom you will not get near the return. Oh my

 

[Embiid]

Bottom line is you gave up assets to dump ghost gave up more to acquire Risto which took three years to fix. Now you look to move Risto whom you will not get near the return. Oh my

Worse than Russia's sale of Alaska to the United States...

 

[Beef Invictus]

Wrong about what?

1) That Ghost would have been worth keeping if they were trying to win as a 3rd pair D-man/PP1 guy?

2) That Ghost was a building block for a rebuilding team?

Yes to 1), No to 2).

They have never been rebuilding for even one second, especially not when he was traded at a loss in order have the space to lose another trade.

A rebuilding team doesn't lose picks to trade someone, even if they were rebuilding.


There is no universe you can create where it wasn't a mistake.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Worse than Russia's sale of Alaska to the United States...

Actually dubbed as Seward's folly at the time. No one thought Alaska had any value

Edit: just like trading ghost should be henceforth known as Fletcher's Folly

 

[Beef Invictus]

Actually dubbed as Seward's folly at the time. No one thought Alaska had any value

Edit: just like trading ghost should be henceforth known as Fletcher's Folly

Actually a myth! The opponents of the purchase were very loud and were allowed to write the reception. Overall, the purchase was viewed favorably. Seward oversaw the finish of the process, but the US and Russia had been talking it over since the 1850s and the US did their homework on Alaska's potential. The use as a trading route for Asia was seen as a strong plus, as well as the possibility of controlling part of the conjectured Northwest Passage. The later discoveries of gold and crab fishing TV shows were nice bonuses.

Russia would have surely preferred to hang onto it, but they were out of cash and with the Brits as a rival they expected to be at war with, they were at risk of losing it for nothing in return anyway.

 

[deadhead]

Russia could hardly populate Eastern Siberia, the trans-Siberia railroad was 50 years away.

Given that the British and/or Americans could move troops by land, whereas the Russians would have had to land them by sea, without suitable ports, then march inland to confront any invader, it was unlikely Russia could have kept Alaska. Russia had its hands full with the Chinese and Japanese in northeast Asia.

In the 19th century, furs were probably the highest value for Alaska, and the Russians had all of eastern Siberia to hunt and farm.

 

[deadhead]

They have never been rebuilding for even one second, especially not when he was traded at a loss in order have the space to lose another trade.

A rebuilding team doesn't lose picks to trade someone, even if they were rebuilding.


There is no universe you can create where it wasn't a mistake.

Who said it wasn't a mistake.

Holmgren should have rebuilt in 2012, Hextall in 2014 (stopped after the 2014 TDL), Holmgren in 2019. Hiring Fletcher and AV is why Holmgren is my chief villain, wasted four years when they could have been accumulating assets.

But once you give AV that contract, and Scott is adamantly opposed to rebuilding, the die was cast.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Who said it wasn't a mistake.

Holmgren should have rebuilt in 2012, Hextall in 2014 (stopped after the 2014 TDL), Holmgren in 2019. Hiring Fletcher and AV is why Holmgren is my chief villain, wasted four years when they could have been accumulating assets.

But once you give AV that contract, and Scott is adamantly opposed to rebuilding, the die was cast.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Who said it wasn't a mistake.

Holmgren should have rebuilt in 2012, Hextall in 2014 (stopped after the 2014 TDL), Holmgren in 2019. Hiring Fletcher and AV is why Holmgren is my chief villain, wasted four years when they could have been accumulating assets.

But once you give AV that contract, and Scott is adamantly opposed to rebuilding, the die was cast.

What is on the team from Fletcher’s era.

Tippet. Cam York. Foerster. Sean Couturier, and Sanheim extensions?

That’s the best we got? That’s vanilla bullshit compared to the rest of the league.

Holmgren was at the very least able to target decent talent at times. Fletcher, and Hex are shitstains compared to Homer. His methods are outdated now, but he brought at least some talent to Philly.

The last GM to also hire a decent coach.

 

[deadhead]

What is on the team from Fletcher’s era.

Tippet. Cam York. Foerster. Sean Couturier, and Sanheim extensions?

That’s the best we got?

Holmgren was at the very least able to target decent talent at times. Fletcher, and Hex are shitstains compared to Homer. His methods are outdated now, but he brought at least some talent to Philly.

The last GM to also hire a decent coach.

Holmgren was useless in the cap era, his best work came when he could buy talent.

Fletcher did what he was told to do by Holmgren who HIRED him and APPROVED the AV contract. CF didn't do a great job of it, but Flyers had no business pretending they were contenders in 2019, and an outlier season is difficult to repeat. They had bad luck, Patrick, Lindblom health and Niskanen retiring, but they were never serious SC contenders.

Trying to win now cost them a 1st, (3) 2nds though he did get a 1st (now Edmonton in 2025), 3rd (Barkey) and Tippett.

Running in place for four years. Holmgren's choice.
He could have said it's time to rebuild, talked Comcast into it and hired a young GM.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Actually a myth! The opponents of the purchase were very loud and were allowed to write the reception. Overall, the purchase was viewed favorably. Seward oversaw the finish of the process, but the US and Russia had been talking it over since the 1850s and the US did their homework on Alaska's potential. The use as a trading route for Asia was seen as a strong plus, as well as the possibility of controlling part of the conjectured Northwest Passage. The later discoveries of gold and crab fishing TV shows were nice bonuses.

Russia would have surely preferred to hang onto it, but they were out of cash and with the Brits as a rival they expected to be at war with, they were at risk of losing it for nothing in return anyway.

Oh man I just got History served. I have shamed my family.

Can we still call it Flecther's Folly though?

 

[freakydallas13]

Holmgren was useless in the cap era, his best work came when he could buy talent.

Fletcher did what he was told to do by Holmgren who HIRED him and APPROVED the AV contract. CF didn't do a great job of it, but Flyers had no business pretending they were contenders in 2019, and an outlier season is difficult to repeat. They had bad luck, Patrick, Lindblom health and Niskanen retiring, but they were never serious SC contenders.

Trying to win now cost them a 1st, (3) 2nds though he did get a 1st (now Edmonton in 2025), 3rd (Barkey) and Tippett.

Running in place for four years. Holmgren's choice.
He could have said it's time to rebuild, talked Comcast into it and hired a young GM.

Homer is the last time this team actively sold notable players at anything above pennies on the dollar. Richards and Carter most notably. Also got a slam dunk trading for Coburn. Also had an anti-slam dunk trades like Eminger and handed out second round picks like candy.

But the point is, calling him "useless in the cap era" compared to someone like Fletcher is poorly disguised damage control, Homer is not even close to the worst Flyers GM of the last 20 years. Your effort to make him the scapegoat to a) conveniently carry water for the current regime (Homer was the real danger! Things are good now that Homer doesn't have his fingers in the pie!) and b) make Fletcher look less incompetent, are as hilarious as they are transparent.

 

[FlyerNutter]

He was a POS after 2010.

Curious though what that makes the cuckold, and Pippin.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Oh man I just got History served. I have shamed my family.

Can we still call it Flecther's Folly though?

Yes

 

[Beef Invictus]

Homer is the last time this team actively sold notable players at anything above pennies on the dollar. Richards and Carter most notably. Also got a slam dunk trading for Coburn. Also had an anti-slam dunk trades like Eminger and handed out second round picks like candy.

But the point is, calling him "useless in the cap era" compared to someone like Fletcher is poorly disguised damage control, Homer is not even close to the worst Flyers GM of the last 20 years. Your effort to make him the scapegoat to a) conveniently carry water for the current regime (Homer was the real danger! Things are good now that Homer doesn't have his fingers in the pie!) and b) make Fletcher look less incompetent, are as hilarious as they are transparent.

Holmgren, in the cap era, actively and deliberately built one Cup-Contending roster with good depth that came within a couple games of winning against a stacked-ass team. He burned the candle at both ends to do it, but it's better than Fletcher who ate half the candle at one stop and shoved the other half up his butthole at the other.


And the only reason he didn't beclown himself so deeply in Minnesota that he was run out of upper management forever? The old buyout rules and some bailout trades from daddy's buddies. It's unbelievable how many of his signings he had to get rid of almost immediately. For all his significant faults, peak Homer remains the 2nd best GM in team history and it's not close at all. Fletcher sits at the bottom. Also not close.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Oh and obviously, if Holmgren is the 2nd best GM in team history, then it isn't surprising the team has gone half a century between Cups.

 

[TCTC]

It really isn't this hard to just admit the Flyers were very wrong.

Wrong about what?

 

[Beef Invictus]

View attachment 923498

 

[deadhead]

Homer is the last time this team actively sold notable players at anything above pennies on the dollar. Richards and Carter most notably. Also got a slam dunk trading for Coburn. Also had an anti-slam dunk trades like Eminger and handed out second round picks like candy.

But the point is, calling him "useless in the cap era" compared to someone like Fletcher is poorly disguised damage control, Homer is not even close to the worst Flyers GM of the last 20 years. Your effort to make him the scapegoat to a) conveniently carry water for the current regime (Homer was the real danger! Things are good now that Homer doesn't have his fingers in the pie!) and b) make Fletcher look less incompetent, are as hilarious as they are transparent.

Homer was stuck in a time warp when he could add/shed salary at will.
A number of his best deals were based on using money as leverage in trades with teams that lacked the resources to pay players.

Under a hard cap, he couldn't do that anymore.

But he held on to the illusion that the Flyers could just turn it around with a couple deals like they had in the previous decade, and didn't have to rebuild.

If you blame Fletcher and AV, you're blaming Holmgren. He's the one behind them, he was President with a lot of leverage (Scott had zero hockey knowledge and leaned on Barber as an advisor).

Given the mandate to win now, exactly what could Fletcher have done better?

Duchene instead of Hayes (if Duchene wanted to come here, both were bought out).
Another veteran coach instead of AV (after Hakstol, Holmgren wasn't hiring another inexperienced HC).
With a flat cap, keeping Ghost instead of picking up Risto wouldn't have moved the needle, he wasn't the player from 2017-18 after having both knees scoped.

At best, marginal improvements to a veteran laden team up against the Cap.
Like what we've seen from the Caps and Pens the last three years.

 

[freakydallas13]

Homer was stuck in a time warp when he could add/shed salary at will.
A number of his best deals were based on using money as leverage in trades with teams that lacked the resources to pay players.

Under a hard cap, he couldn't do that anymore.

But he held on to the illusion that the Flyers could just turn it around with a couple deals like they had in the previous decade, and didn't have to rebuild.

If you blame Fletcher and AV, you're blaming Holmgren. He's the one behind them, he was President with a lot of leverage (Scott had zero hockey knowledge and leaned on Barber as an advisor).

Given the mandate to win now, exactly what could Fletcher have done better?

Duchene instead of Hayes (if Duchene wanted to come here, both were bought out).
Another veteran coach instead of AV (after Hakstol, Holmgren wasn't hiring another inexperienced HC).
With a flat cap, keeping Ghost instead of picking up Risto wouldn't have moved the needle, he wasn't the player from 2017-18 after having both knees scoped.

At best, marginal improvements to a veteran laden team up against the Cap.
Like what we've seen from the Caps and Pens the last three years.

Asking "what could Fletcher have done better?" and then answering your own question with things like "keeping ghost". He also could have not traded an absolute haul for Risto. Or did Holmgren have a gun to Fletcher's head telling him to make that trade too? Poor Fletcher, truly the GM and President had zero power at all to make any decisions. Also love how Duchene is the only other player Fletcher could have possibly acquired, when there were two better centers on Risto's previous team available but Fletcher had horse blinders on and ignored them both, stupidly.

Again, your need to blame Homer for everything pre-Briere is incredibly transparent. You are trying to absolve Flyers management while also insisting things are better now because they have moved on from having Holmgren in charge (spiritually, seeing as his official role hasn't changed) and thus we don't have to worry about the architect of previous mistakes. You insist this is the case because it's the only line that doesn't make the front office look bad, so you build your entire narrative around it, despite the fact it's entirely speculative on your part.

Fletcher was the worst GM the Flyers had since the cap. Homer was a mix of good and bad. Just accept it (we both know you won't/can't).

 

[deadhead]

Asking "what could Fletcher have done better?" and then answering your own question with things like "keeping ghost". He also could have not traded an absolute haul for Risto. Or did Holmgren have a gun to Fletcher's head telling him to make that trade too? Poor Fletcher, truly the GM and President had zero power at all to make any decisions. Also love how Duchene is the only other player Fletcher could have possibly acquired, when there were two better centers on Risto's previous team available but Fletcher had horse blinders on and ignored them both, stupidly.

Again, your need to blame Homer for everything pre-Briere is incredibly transparent. You are trying to absolve Flyers management while also insisting things are better now because they have moved on from having Holmgren in charge (spiritually, seeing as his official role hasn't changed) and thus we don't have to worry about the architect of previous mistakes. You insist this is the case because it's the only line that doesn't make the front office look bad, so you build your entire narrative around it, despite the fact it's entirely speculative on your part.

Fletcher was the worst GM the Flyers had since the cap. Homer was a mix of good and bad. Just accept it (we both know you won't/can't).

Holmgren is the primary reason the Flyers didn't rebuild the last decade. Can't argue with that, he had two chances to do so and refused (2012 and 2019). Fletcher didn't have the authority to rebuild, Holmgren had hired him to "win now," and Barber had Scott convinced they could still be competitive.

Could Fletcher have made better moves? Sure.
Would they have made a significant difference? Doubtful.
They'd still probably miss the playoffs the last few seasons, just would have hurt their draft position.

 

[freakydallas13]

Holmgren is the primary reason the Flyers didn't rebuild the last decade. Can't argue with that, he had two chances to do so and refused (2012 and 2019). Fletcher didn't have the authority to rebuild, Holmgren had hired him to "win now," and Barber had Scott convinced they could still be competitive.

Could Fletcher have made better moves? Sure.
Would they have made a significant difference? Doubtful.
They'd still probably miss the playoffs the last few seasons, just would have hurt their draft position.

Again, you have no proof of this. You're just clinging to this narrative because you have to, otherwise it looks bad for the Flyers. You have to align your viewpoint with whatever makes the Flyers current management look less bad.

Agree to disagree.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Given the mandate to win now, exactly what could Fletcher have done better?

Could Fletcher have made better moves? Sure.
Would they have made a significant difference? Doubtful.

I have never seen someone try to handwave whether decisions made any sense whatsoever before. It's fascinating. Every mistake was actually fine because he was under pressure to add players, but also adding better ones than he did doesn't matter. Nothing ever matters.

This is the shit people say before they walk into the ocean carrying an unread copy of Fathers and Sons.

 

[FlyerNutter]

To absolve everyone involved but put it all on Holmgren.

The attempt to form a narrative is almost political.

 

[deadhead]

I have never seen someone try to handwave whether decisions made any sense whatsoever before. It's fascinating. Every mistake was actually fine because he was under pressure to add players, but also adding better ones than he did doesn't matter. Nothing ever matters.

This is the shit people say before they walk into the ocean carrying an unread copy of Fathers and Sons.

If brilliant GMs could turn around aging, mediocre franchises with amazing trades, it would happen all the time.
Even Zito started with Barkov (25), Huberdeau (27), Weegar (27), Ekblad (24), and Bob in goal.
He had a great run his first year,

2/24/20 Trocheck for Luostarinen, Haula & Wallmark
4/12/21 2nd rd & Heineman for Bennett
7/24/21 1st and Levi for Reinhart
but
7/26/21 2nd & Stralman & Kolyavhonok for cap relief
3/16/22 2023 1st, 2022 4th for Chariot (rental)
3/19/22 Tippett, 2024 1st, 2023, 3rd for Giroux (rental)
3/20/22 6th rd pick for Hagg
7/22/22 Huberdeau, Weegar, 2025 1st for Tkachuk and 4th
3/8/24 2024 3rd, 2025 3rd for Tarasenko

His real skill was rummaging through the NHL trash heap:
2/19/20 Malgin for Marchment
10/9/20 Verhaeghe SFA
10/9/20 Weenberg SFA
10/9/20 Gudas FA
10/9/20 Lomberg SFA
12/18/20 Duclair SFA
1/9/21 Forsling (claimed off waivers)
4/10/21 3rd for Montour

but now he's just signing patches:
7/13/22 C White
7/13/22 Cousins
10/10/22 Mahura (claimed off waivers)
10/21/22 E Staal FA
7/1/23 OEL
7/1/23 Kulikov
7/1/23 Mikkola 3/$9M
7/2/23 E Rodriques 4/12M
7/1/24 Boqvist
7/1/24 AJ Greer
7/2/24 Nate Schmidt
Balinskis SFA




Drafting under Zito has been meh at best
2020: Lundell #14
2021: Samoskevich #24
are the only NHL players so far since he took over.