Post-Game Talk: #68 | Flyers at Bruins | March 16, 2024 | Flyers lose 6-5

[thedjpd]

Rebuilding teams don't resign players like Seeler and hold onto players like Laughton. And don't trade for players like Johnson. And don't feel the need to offload bad contracts no matter what like Hayes.

Why don’t they? Seems pretty common. Why did Chicago sign useless vets like Hall? They are the most egregious case of tanking since the Lemieux era Pens. Not everything has to be all or nothing.

Why are teams in the midst of their rebuild looking to acquire players like Laughton? Because things don’t happen in an instant. He’s coveted for a reason - he has value to both contenders and rebuilding teams. Same with Nick Seeler. Players that just go play and don’t complain - especially nowadays - is rare.

And this is the same board who is saying Cutter Gauthier - who has never played a game in the NHL - were picking apart how viable his actual skill set would translate to the NhL, suddenly wanted him signed instantly and guaranteed a spot.

Pandering is a way to failure. Everybody thought the Bruins would fall apart after Bergeron and Krejci left. Why are they still good? They know what it takes to win games.

They are just the Flyers with a little higher end players. Pastranak is better than TK, McAvoy better than Sanheim. Other than that - they’re a bunch of good players, (not great since Marchand has aged a bit), no depth at C, but with some solid goaltending and a professional, workman attitude.

The Flyers had the goaltending - and as such were at one point on pace with the top 10 teams. After that, they have dropped due to Hart. Then the injuries compiled and now they are struggling.

But the attitude and system the Bruins have is why they are still relevant among the elite. Everybody thinks the Flyers are modeling after the cup Blues - but I think they are using the Bruins. And I’m ok with that.

 

[freakydallas13]

Why don’t they? Seems pretty common. Why did Chicago sign useless vets like Hall? They are the most egregious case of tanking since the Lemieux era Pens. Not everything has to be all or nothing.

Why are teams in the midst of their rebuild looking to acquire players like Laughton? Because things don’t happen in an instant. He’s coveted for a reason - he has value to both contenders and rebuilding teams. Same with Nick Seeler. Players that just go play and don’t complain - especially nowadays - is rare.

And this is the same board who is saying Cutter Gauthier - who has never played a game in the NHL - were picking apart how viable his actual skill set would translate to the NhL, suddenly wanted him signed instantly and guaranteed a spot.

Pandering is a way to failure. Everybody thought the Bruins would fall apart after Bergeron and Krejci left. Why are they still good? They know what it takes to win games.

They are just the Flyers with a little higher end players. Pastranak is better than TK, McAvoy better than Sanheim. Other than that - they’re a bunch of good players, (not great since Marchand has aged a bit), no depth at C, but with some solid goaltending and a professional, workman attitude.

The Flyers had the goaltending - and as such were at one point on pace with the top 10 teams. After that, they have dropped due to Hart. Then the injuries compiled and now they are struggling.

But the attitude and system the Bruins have is why they are still relevant among the elite. Everybody thinks the Flyers are modeling after the cup Blues - but I think they are using the Bruins. And I’m ok with that.

How is trading significant assets for a 30 year old bottom sixer a rebuilding move? That's the opposite of what a rebuilding team should be doing.

The moves I mentioned in my previous post are easy low bar moves a rebuilding team would make. This team didn't even make those. For every rebuilding move this team makes, it turns around and makes a move that teams trying to compete make. That's why we say the team has no direction.

 

[thedjpd]

How is trading significant assets for a 30 year old bottom sixer a rebuilding move? That's the opposite of what a rebuilding team should be doing.

The moves I mentioned in my previous post are easy low bar moves a rebuilding team would make. This team didn't even make those. For every rebuilding move this team makes, it turns around and makes a move that teams trying to compete make. That's why we say the team has no direction.

Laughton hasn’t been traded - logical deduction would be that the assets to deal for or acquire him may not be signifiant at all.

He’s been on the block, hasn’t he?

 

[freakydallas13]

Laughton hasn’t been traded - logical deduction would be that the assets to deal for or acquire him may not be signifiant at all.

He’s been on the block, hasn’t he?

He's been "on the block", and we don't know that Briere didn't set a price intentionally higher than he's worth so he could have the excuse of "well no one met our asking price so we kept him". It's already been reported they turned down a 1st plus for him this summer.

 

[Cody Webster]

Understand the notion, but there's a reason Raanta was on waivers, too. From a team that's better in all aspects than the Flyers and has had markedly worse goaltending this season on. They decided to just let him go

I appreciate the attempt to knock on the management team again, but there's a high probability that Raanta is/would have been worse than Sandstrom. Context is important here.

It goes to show you why keeping Walker (who is excelling in Colorado, no surprise) - was a serious consideration for extension, which also then was compounded by the loss of Seeler - perhaps the best second pair in the league (they were top 5 in fancy stats IIRC) - suddenly just vanished. Not only that - a pretty strong 3rd pair including Risto, as a result - also vanished.

I'm not sure what anybody expected here. Jersey lost a single top 4 d-man for the year, and has inconsistent goaltending, and they're floundered even worse - even with their superstars. They had the whole year to find a solution and they - promoted their #2OV top prospect - who came on strong, and as expected, has faded. Everybody starts off really strong with the adrenaline. Let's not forget Tyson Foerster with 7 points in his first 8 NHL games. The Flyers promoted their less talented rookie d-men and what are we expecting here? Everybody wants to say ' I told you so - the Flyers have fallen off' but have they really? It's not the same team at all that it was 4 weeks ago. Are we really saying -

York-Sanheim
Zamula-Johnson
Staal-Attard
Ginning?

vs

York-Sanheim
Seeler-Walker
Ristolainen-Zamula
Staal-Johnson

are even comparable as defenses? If Drysdale was healthy, he could fill in for Walker at least in terms of talent, but not as a player (as of now) - but that's still 10x better then the slop now.

Sustained production takes model examples - you hear it all the time - take for example Barkov to Jagr. Barkov is on record saying that seeing how much Jagr works at his game is why he took multiple leaps. This is why their insistence on culture - it's hard to disagree. Very few players - really only transcendental ones - will just be awesome regardless of environment.

And as MSE posted earlier - I think the Flyers are gun-shy enough with super high end draft picks. JVR, Patrick, and Gauthier are their highest picks in the organization over the last 15ish years. One an average player, one a bust, and one didn't want to be here. With that kind of luck/precedence/karma whatever you want to call it - I wouldn't give a shit about a top 5 pick either if I'm management. 3 strikes, right? It's certainly not compelling enough to tank seasons for one. Take a gander over to the Ducks board as well - their fanbase can't wash the stink off of losing and are losing their minds - in the 6th year of their supposed re-build after stockpiling tons of prospects - and are still in tank-a-thon. A year they were supposed to be trending upwards at least a bit, or turning the corner - but they don't see it. Because in 3 years, people will need contracts, raises, and the team will be entirely different anyway - some prospects will be great, some will bust - nothing's a guarantee. They're freaking about being Buffalo west and they are 6 years in!

Anyway, regarding the Flyers, saying now after a team loses 4 top 4 d-men to various causes in a matter of a few days that they can just continue as is - is disingenuous at best. There is not a single team in the NHL that can withstand that type of blow to their d-corps and just 'keep winning.' This isn't a team that's just fallen off - it's just a different team. One everybody claimed they wanted, by the way at the beginning of the year. And even still - they hung in there with a league elite today, even if they didn't win.

There's no way Raanta is worse than Sandstrom. The guy sucked in the AHL and has sucked in the NHL. Since they can't figure out if they're rebuilding or not, trading a 4th for the worst defenseman in the NHL, but choosing to forge ahead with two rookie goalies, who've probably never played this many games before, is the dumbest decision a franchise could make, but in line with how this franchise operates. Nothing has changed with new management

 

[Cody Webster]

Why don’t they? Seems pretty common. Why did Chicago sign useless vets like Hall? They are the most egregious case of tanking since the Lemieux era Pens. Not everything has to be all or nothing.

Why are teams in the midst of their rebuild looking to acquire players like Laughton? Because things don’t happen in an instant. He’s coveted for a reason - he has value to both contenders and rebuilding teams. Same with Nick Seeler. Players that just go play and don’t complain - especially nowadays - is rare.

And this is the same board who is saying Cutter Gauthier - who has never played a game in the NHL - were picking apart how viable his actual skill set would translate to the NhL, suddenly wanted him signed instantly and guaranteed a spot.

Pandering is a way to failure. Everybody thought the Bruins would fall apart after Bergeron and Krejci left. Why are they still good? They know what it takes to win games.

They are just the Flyers with a little higher end players. Pastranak is better than TK, McAvoy better than Sanheim. Other than that - they’re a bunch of good players, (not great since Marchand has aged a bit), no depth at C, but with some solid goaltending and a professional, workman attitude.

The Flyers had the goaltending - and as such were at one point on pace with the top 10 teams. After that, they have dropped due to Hart. Then the injuries compiled and now they are struggling.

But the attitude and system the Bruins have is why they are still relevant among the elite. Everybody thinks the Flyers are modeling after the cup Blues - but I think they are using the Bruins. And I’m ok with that.

Because they have one of the top goaltending duos in the NHL, something the Flyers don't have, because they decided to roll with Ersson, who's great when he's on, but is awful when he's off, and a combo of a 5 million dollar tutor shooter and a guy who can't put up decent numbers in the AHL.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

They are definitely rebuilding. They are not tankkng. They don’t mean the same thing.

Yeah it's a compete while retooling plan. Like we have seen about every 5 years for nearly 2 decades.

Which is what people are complaining about.

They aren't going all in (trading Walker) and they aren't commiting to a rebuilding (they only traded Walker)

Same as it ever was.

 

[CerpinTaxt]

Seeing lots of negativity around here. Cmon guys Flyers are in a playoff spot and the metro is hot garbage. They just need to get in, and anything can happen in a 4 game sweep. Even if they get swept it will serve the young guys good to get that playoff experience. You know that experience that says well built teams and talented players usually move on. It will help them realize they aren't that no matter how hard they try. And oh will they try hard

 

[GapToothedWonder]

Why don’t they? Seems pretty common. Why did Chicago sign useless vets like Hall? They are the most egregious case of tanking since the Lemieux era Pens. Not everything has to be all or nothing.

Why are teams in the midst of their rebuild looking to acquire players like Laughton? Because things don’t happen in an instant. He’s coveted for a reason - he has value to both contenders and rebuilding teams. Same with Nick Seeler. Players that just go play and don’t complain - especially nowadays - is rare.

And this is the same board who is saying Cutter Gauthier - who has never played a game in the NHL - were picking apart how viable his actual skill set would translate to the NhL, suddenly wanted him signed instantly and guaranteed a spot.

Pandering is a way to failure. Everybody thought the Bruins would fall apart after Bergeron and Krejci left. Why are they still good? They know what it takes to win games.

They are just the Flyers with a little higher end players. Pastranak is better than TK, McAvoy better than Sanheim. Other than that - they’re a bunch of good players, (not great since Marchand has aged a bit), no depth at C, but with some solid goaltending and a professional, workman attitude.

The Flyers had the goaltending - and as such were at one point on pace with the top 10 teams. After that, they have dropped due to Hart. Then the injuries compiled and now they are struggling.

But the attitude and system the Bruins have is why they are still relevant among the elite. Everybody thinks the Flyers are modeling after the cup Blues - but I think they are using the Bruins. And I’m ok with that.

Yup the Flyers got the hard part out of the way. Now they just need to do the easy stuff like find a top 5 defenceman, a top 5 winger, another probably top 15 winger, one of the best goalie tandem in the league and improved depth throughout the entire roster. That stuff should fall into place now that the hard stuff like learning to be professionals has happened.

 

[BernieParent]

Understand the notion, but there's a reason Raanta was on waivers, too. From a team that's better in all aspects than the Flyers and has had markedly worse goaltending this season on. They decided to just let him go

I appreciate the attempt to knock on the management team again, but there's a high probability that Raanta is/would have been worse than Sandstrom. Context is important here.

It goes to show you why keeping Walker (who is excelling in Colorado, no surprise) - was a serious consideration for extension, which also then was compounded by the loss of Seeler - perhaps the best second pair in the league (they were top 5 in fancy stats IIRC) - suddenly just vanished. Not only that - a pretty strong 3rd pair including Risto, as a result - also vanished.

I'm not sure what anybody expected here. Jersey lost a single top 4 d-man for the year, and has inconsistent goaltending, and they're floundered even worse - even with their superstars. They had the whole year to find a solution and they - promoted their #2OV top prospect - who came on strong, and as expected, has faded. Everybody starts off really strong with the adrenaline. Let's not forget Tyson Foerster with 7 points in his first 8 NHL games. The Flyers promoted their less talented rookie d-men and what are we expecting here? Everybody wants to say ' I told you so - the Flyers have fallen off' but have they really? It's not the same team at all that it was 4 weeks ago. Are we really saying -

York-Sanheim
Zamula-Johnson
Staal-Attard
Ginning?

vs

York-Sanheim
Seeler-Walker
Ristolainen-Zamula
Staal-Johnson

are even comparable as defenses? If Drysdale was healthy, he could fill in for Walker at least in terms of talent, but not as a player (as of now) - but that's still 10x better then the slop now.

Sustained production takes model examples - you hear it all the time - take for example Barkov to Jagr. Barkov is on record saying that seeing how much Jagr works at his game is why he took multiple leaps. This is why their insistence on culture - it's hard to disagree. Very few players - really only transcendental ones - will just be awesome regardless of environment.

And as MSE posted earlier - I think the Flyers are gun-shy enough with super high end draft picks. JVR, Patrick, and Gauthier are their highest picks in the organization over the last 15ish years. One an average player, one a bust, and one didn't want to be here. With that kind of luck/precedence/karma whatever you want to call it - I wouldn't give a shit about a top 5 pick either if I'm management. 3 strikes, right? It's certainly not compelling enough to tank seasons for one. Take a gander over to the Ducks board as well - their fanbase can't wash the stink off of losing and are losing their minds - in the 6th year of their supposed re-build after stockpiling tons of prospects - and are still in tank-a-thon. A year they were supposed to be trending upwards at least a bit, or turning the corner - but they don't see it. Because in 3 years, people will need contracts, raises, and the team will be entirely different anyway - some prospects will be great, some will bust - nothing's a guarantee. They're freaking about being Buffalo west and they are 6 years in!

Anyway, regarding the Flyers, saying now after a team loses 4 top 4 d-men to various causes in a matter of a few days that they can just continue as is - is disingenuous at best. There is not a single team in the NHL that can withstand that type of blow to their d-corps and just 'keep winning.' This isn't a team that's just fallen off - it's just a different team. One everybody claimed they wanted, by the way at the beginning of the year. And even still - they hung in there with a league elite today, even if they didn't win.

I mostly agree but I want to add that the 4 Dmen the Flyers lost were bottom 4, and it is ironic that the team stating they will overcome teams through depth do not have sufficient depth to ice an NHL-level 2nd or 3rd pairing D.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Yup the Flyers got the hard part out of the way. Now they just need to do the easy stuff like find a top 5 defenceman, a top 5 winger, another probably top 15 winger, one of the best goalie tandem in the league and improved depth throughout the entire roster. That stuff should fall into place now that the hard stuff like learning to be professionals has happened.

That reminds me of how the Flyers lacked the drive and professionalism during the Richards/Carter era until Pronger came... and then Richards pouted when Pronger called him out... so it's not that easy as "flicking a switch" (as Richards would say) and changing the culture if you have talent.

 

[GapToothedWonder]

That reminds me of how the Flyers lacked the drive and professionalism during the Richards/Carter era until Pronger came... and then Richards pouted when Pronger called him out... so it's not that easy as "flicking a switch" (as Richards would say) and changing the culture if you have talent.

It must be nice living in a world where the garbage spewed by talking heads on sports talk shows is directly marketed to you.

 

[thedjpd]

I mostly agree but I want to add that the 4 Dmen the Flyers lost were bottom 4, and it is ironic that the team stating they will overcome teams through depth do not have sufficient depth to ice an NHL-level 2nd or 3rd pairing D.

Walker/Seeler was one of the best 2nd pairs in the entire league. Not just the Flyers. They were not only "top 4," they played like a top pair. If you want to argue that Ristolainen is still a bottom pair D-man, sure, that one is fine. But Drysdale bottom pair also? I think you're skewing perceptions to support your narrative.

But even still, name me a team that can lose 4 d-men in their own top 6 and just 'trek on.' There isn't one.

Look at NJ with Hamilton. Tampa with Sergachev. I don't think folks here understand just how decimated this d-corps is, and are trying to downplay that impact.

 

[TheKingPin]

No Seeler
Drysdale
Risto

No Hart
Walker

Those things likely allowed us to lose here. Trading Walker was the right move. Laughton should have went too but hopefully at the draft but it seems unlikely.

They are playing the top teams in he league with 1 pair of NHL defenders. They play the Bruins then Panthers back to back this weekend. It’s expected. Just try and get 4 pts or more out of these 7 games.

 

[BernieParent]

Walker/Seeler was one of the best 2nd pairs in the entire league. Not just the Flyers. They were not only "top 4," they played like a top pair. If you want to argue that Ristolainen is still a bottom pair D-man, sure, that one is fine. But Drysdale bottom pair also? I think you're skewing perceptions to support your narrative.

But even still, name me a team that can lose 4 d-men in their own top 6 and just 'trek on.' There isn't one.

Look at NJ with Hamilton. Tampa with Sergachev. I don't think folks here understand just how decimated this d-corps is, and are trying to downplay that impact.

Thanks for your answer, djpd. You are spot-on with how remarkable the Seeler/Walker pairing was, and I hope this accurately illustrates Brad Shaw's acumen with defensemen. The point I was trying to make was that the Flyers weren't even able to step down to a league-average or adequate 2nd pair, much less a 3rd pair; they went right to gosh-awful. I'm glad that Zamula and Attard are getting time to show what they can and can't do, but it highlights the dearth of depth or higher-end prospects this team currently has. Their low defensive competitiveness is a symptom, not the disorder itself.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Drysdale is the new Provorov, isn’t he? We can’t even agree on whether he’s been an effective NHLer.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Drysdale is the new Provorov, isn’t he?

new Ellis

 

[renberg]

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Johnson and Staal are not NHL performers any longer. Rolling them out there and expecting positive results is a fool's game. IDK how bad Belpedio, Andrae and the other defenders down at LV are but are they really worse than J & S?
Perhaps a different game strategy would help until some of the banged up defensemen get back on to the ice. Then again, I'm not concerned too much about losing since it means a better draft position. Time to just carry on.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Laughton hasn’t been traded - logical deduction would be that the assets to deal for or acquire him may not be signifiant at all.

He’s been on the block, hasn’t he?

They turned down a 1st and 2nd. They don't actually want to trade him.

 

[SolidSnakeUS]

Drysdale is the new Provorov, isn’t he? We can’t even agree on whether he’s been an effective NHLer.

I also think of it this way. When healthy, Drysdale should be a PP QB and get a bunch of points. But when you have a club that literally gives no f***s about how its PP operates, then what is the point of him?

 

[Cody Webster]

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Johnson and Staal are not NHL performers any longer. Rolling them out there and expecting positive results is a fool's game. IDK how bad Belpedio, Andrae and the other defenders down at LV are but are they really worse than J & S?
Perhaps a different game strategy would help until some of the banged up defensemen get back on to the ice. Then again, I'm not concerned too much about losing since it means a better draft position. Time to just carry on.

No chance they are scratching Johnson for an AHL guy after trading a 4th for him at the deadline

 

[Flyerfan4life]

They turned down a 1st and 2nd. They don't actually want to trade him.

DB said it didnt matter the return they werent interested in trading him..

they only listened to offers out of respect.

Laughton is a foundational pillar to this "culture" team

ps i hear DB didnt know about Johhansens injury when he accepted the trade..

#sameasiteverwas...

this Org. is the dumping ground for broken toys and worn out old dogs

 

[renberg]

No chance they are scratching Johnson for an AHL guy after trading a 4th for him at the deadline

That's ok with me. Keep picking up the Ls.
One thing that the FO might need to consider is the effect that having a seven game losing streak at a pivotal time of the season has on the young players going forward.

 

[bennysflyers16]

No chance they are scratching Johnson for an AHL guy after trading a 4th for him at the deadline

There at minimum 4 Phantoms >> Staal, EJ, but they in a playoff race.

Trash Vets will always trump younger players for the Flyers.

 

[VladDrag]

Drysdale is the new Provorov, isn’t he? We can’t even agree on whether he’s been an effective NHLer.

The same metrics that tell you Seeler/Walker have excelled in their roles say that Drysdale has not been an NHL defender (I know you know this)