Post-Game Talk: #51| FLYERS 1 at Hurricanes 5 | Tuesday, January 31, 2017|

[Flyerfan4life]

Practice lines today:

PEB-PEB-PEB
PEB-PEB-PEB
PEB-PEB-PEB
VdV-PEB-PEB

needs more Hakslovechild

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Why, would we miss Ghost the way he's playing right now?
Egregious turnovers, no ES scoring (8 points despite huge edge in O-zone starts), struggling on the PP.
MDZ can play that role just as badly.

Zone starts have been shown to have little impact on scoring outside of the first 15 seconds of a shift. It only matters significantly in the case of outliers. You keep saying this and it's still wrong.

Let's just forget Ghost's debut, after 50 games it's ancient history.
He needs to get his head together this offseason, get faster and stronger and come back next year determined to show this season was a fluke. He needs to get film of Kimmo and learn how to play defense (Kimmo started as a D-first player, 21 minutes a night his second season and never played less than that, his offense didn't arrive until his 4th season at age 26, but he was 194 lbs v Ghosts' 180).

So we have a 50ish game sample size and a 64 game sample size. And we want to throw out the latter because why? Come on, you're not a dumb guy. I don't believe you actually think this makes sense.

If he doesn't get it together, he could come to camp and see Provorov on the first PP, Sanheim on the 2nd and Hagg pushing him for ES time.

If Robert Hagg pushes him for Ice time, we should find the leg he lost and reattach it.

 

[deadhead]

Actually, Ghost has been protected, highly skewed to O-zone starts, limited minutes, so he doesn't wear down trying to wrestle with 200 lb forwards in the D-zone.

Problem with pairings is who do you pair him with?

Provorov - this would delegate Provorov to a defensive role, but I think they want him to be more aggressive on offense and develop that part of his game, given he's ES 4-15 in 50 games, that's probably a good idea.

Gudas - this would require Ghost shift back to the left side, and make putting three pairs together more difficult, Ghost probably wouldn't be able to move to the left side permanently until Myers makes the team.

The rest - does it matter?
Streit is slow and not really the "responsible" partner, Manning pinches too much, MacDonald, Schultz, MDZ, yeah, that's the ticket.

My point about 50 games is whatever he did for two months last year, since then he's a different player, whether it's injury, added weight or offseason complacency, he's not the same player this year.

The important thing is how he reacts to this season, I doubt he's going to turn it around the last 30 games, but what makes or breaks a career is whether he accepts he's not "there" yet and puts the work in to get to the next level.

 

[Striiker]

Giroux's power play production doesn't mean his even strength play isn't a big concern. See below. When your highest paid player and supposed #1 center is that ineffective except for specialty situations, it causes problems, especially when teams adjust to your PP and also start taking fewer penalties.

He's paid big money to help the team win.

He helps the team win by putting up points.

He puts up points by scoring on the PP.

Scoring on the PP is why he's got paid big money.

That's all that matters. Where he gets the points is irrelevant if he still scores... and, although it's lower than his usual pace which is for many different reasons, he does. If he can still put up 65-70 points then I don't care if he never scores at 5v5 again.

 

[Striiker]

Zone starts have been shown to have little impact on scoring outside of the first 15 seconds of a shift. It only matters significantly in the case of outliers. You keep saying this and it's still wrong.



So we have a 50ish game sample size and a 64 game sample size. And we want to throw out the latter because why? Come on, you're not a dumb guy. I don't believe you actually think this makes sense.



If Robert Hagg pushes him for Ice time, we should find the leg he lost and reattach it.

 

[FatTugboatFlahr]

So why has Ghost been horrible? His play seems in line with everyone else on the team.

 

[Striiker]

Because people would rather cry about specific players and ignore the context for their exaggerated scoring woes.

 

[kudymen]

He's paid big money to help the team win.

He helps the team win by putting up points.

He puts up points by scoring on the PP.

Scoring on the PP is why he's got paid big money.

Haha

 

[Ghosts Beer]

He's paid big money to help the team win.

He helps the team win by putting up points.

He puts up points by scoring on the PP.

Scoring on the PP is why he's got paid big money.

That's all that matters. Where he gets the points is irrelevant if he still scores... and, although it's lower than his usual pace which is for many different reasons, he does. If he can still put up 65-70 points then I don't care if he never scores at 5v5 again.

Giroux is the 11th highest paid player in the league.

I disagree that scoring on the PP is the only reason he's the 11th highest paid player in the NHL.

He's also expected to be a well above average #1 center at even strength, and certainly not 130th in the NHL in ES scoring; 359th in ES scoring per 60 minutes; reducing the GF60 of 9 out of the 11 players who play with him the most; and -13.

Giroux's underperforming to this degree at ES hurts the team and takes away from what he does on the PP. Saying his ES play doesn't matter is going way too far to make excuses for a long-time favorite.

 

[Magua]

He's paid big money to help the team win.

He helps the team win by putting up points.

He puts up points by scoring on the PP.

Scoring on the PP is why he's got paid big money.

That's all that matters. Where he gets the points is irrelevant if he still scores... and, although it's lower than his usual pace which is for many different reasons, he does. If he can still put up 65-70 points then I don't care if he never scores at 5v5 again.

Yeah, he'll still get his 60+ points just by being average 5v5 and great on the PP. I don't think he's really this bad at 5v5 long-term. I'm thinking more the previous 2 years, at least for the near future. When every single forward on the team is scoring at dismal rates, Giroux is not an outlier here. There's a whole lot of bad in that statement, but also some good if you're hoping for a bounce back. He's not alone.

But I'm skeptical he can be depended on for everything anymore and we still need someone to replace his 5v5 production.....and a lot of other players's production who stink there (I don't think Giroux stinks there, even if this season has been poor). Giroux will always help the team, even as more of a special teams guy. But it is a worry. He might not be the guy. Is that fair to say?

 

[Striiker]

Giroux is the 11th highest paid player in the league.

I disagree that scoring on the PP is the only reason he's the 11th highest paid player in the NHL.

He's also expected to be a well above average #1 center at even strength, and certainly not 130th in the NHL in ES scoring; 359th in ES scoring per 60 minutes; reducing the GF60 of 9 out of the 11 players who play with him the most; and -13.

Giroux's underperforming to this degree at ES hurts the team and takes away from what he does on the PP. Saying his ES play doesn't matter is going way too far to make excuses for a long-time favorite.

No it's not the only reason he's paid a lot, but that's because it's not the only thing he does. It's certainly a big part of it though since it's a big part of his points and his points are a big part of why he's at that salary.

His 5v5 scoring didn't go from last years pace to this years pace because of his age... there's a ton of factors that play into it and, like I said below, I'd expect it to go back up next year.

Yeah, he'll still get his 60+ points just by being average 5v5 and great on the PP. I don't think he's really this bad at 5v5 long-term. I'm thinking more the previous 2 years, at least for the near future. When every single forward on the team is scoring at dismal rates, Giroux is not an outlier here. There's a whole lot of bad in that statement, but also some good if you're hoping for a bounce back. He's not alone.

But I'm skeptical he can be depended on for everything anymore and we still need someone to replace his 5v5 production.....and a lot of other players's production who stink there (I don't think Giroux stinks there, even if this season has been poor). Giroux will always help the team, even as more of a special teams guy. But it is a worry. He might not be the guy. Is that fair to say?

I definitely agree, I think last years 5v5 production should be the expectation for next year, not this years production. This year the team is just not doing well 5v5... pretty much all of them. Like I said in the GDT, it's a perfect storm of bad...

Giroux is having a down year, Ghost isn't scoring, our goaltending is trash 75% of the time, we still have very little depth past the top guys so when they're not scoring there is no scoring, and the defense is half trash and the other half are underachievers (except for Provorov)... so really nothing is going well, which snowballs, causes frustration, kills confidence, and then we see games like last night.

If only Giroux's 5v5 production was down then I'd understand a bit of worry, but that's not the case so I see these posts as premature.

And yeah, I agree with your other point too. If the Flyers win a cup in the near future it likely isn't going to be on his back (although he could still play a big role possibly). He's going to need help and others will have to carry some of the load too, that's including other forwards, defense, and goaltending all together.

 

[deadhead]

Giroux's production this year is probably below trend, but the two previous years he was scoring like a 2nd or 3rd line center (30 points) ES. His great PP production balances that to some extent, but that might justify a Schenn salary, but not $8M a year. I think most people will think Schenn a fail if he doesn't score 30 ES points a year.

Ghost has 8 ES points this year, that's bad for a guy whose primarily role is offense. Yes, it will help him to have a better partner, Hagg actually might be a good fit since he's more of a conventional D-man but can skate well enough to keep up and recover.

The forwards with significantly lower ES scoring are Giroux, Schenn and Couts. Since Giroux doesn't play with them, that can't explain his falloff.

 

[1865]

Two games after a decent rest and two absolutely appalling performances. Isn't this what the coach is for really?

 

[Rebels57]

So Isaac hinted at Ghost sitting Thursday?

I'm officially out on Hakstol, they can fire him whenever they want. This is beyond ridiculous. Might as well trade him too, the kid isn't going to want to ****ing sign here at this point. Keeps watching piles of trash play in front of him.

Would not be surprised if he asks to be traded this summer, assuming Hakstol survives that long. I wouldn't want to play for this *******.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Two games after a decent rest and two absolutely appalling performances. Isn't this what the coach is for really?

I don't know. Seems like the players really fall off when away from the coach for any length of time.

 

[BringBackHakstol]

Pretty clearly this team has a huge overall 5v5 scoring problem right now.

Sure, Giroux's play is part of it. But at the same time, there's 5 guys out there and the overall system and total package of players we have out there are clearly not working as an offensive unit. It goes well beyond an individuals' effort.

 

[Striiker]

Pretty clearly this team has a huge overall 5v5 scoring problem right now.

Sure, Giroux's play is part of it. But at the same time, there's 5 guys out there and the overall system and total package of players we have out there are clearly not working as an offensive unit. It goes well beyond an individuals' effort.

100%.

A majority of the team is a funk every night. A small handful of players usually play well each game, but who they are changes pretty much every night. Then there's also a group that is bad every single game, and that absolutely has a resonating impact on the rest of the team.

 

[Appleyard]

Giroux's production this year is probably below trend, but the two previous years he was scoring like a 2nd or 3rd line center (30 points) ES. His great PP production balances that to some extent, but that might justify a Schenn salary, but not $8M a year. I think most people will think Schenn a fail if he doesn't score 30 ES points a year.

Ghost has 8 ES points this year, that's bad for a guy whose primarily role is offense. Yes, it will help him to have a better partner, Hagg actually might be a good fit since he's more of a conventional D-man but can skate well enough to keep up and recover.

The forwards with significantly lower ES scoring are Giroux, Schenn and Couts. Since Giroux doesn't play with them, that can't explain his falloff.

Giroux averaged 38 EV points per 82 games the last two years... which is more like 40 than 30.

His underlying stats last year were also right at the same level at 2013-14 and close to 2011-12. They are not this year, he is not playing as well...

 

[Striiker]

Giroux averaged 38 EV points per 82 games the last two years... which is more like 40 than 30.

His underlying stats last year were also right at the same level at 2013-14 and close to 2011-12. They are not this year, he is not playing as well...

And for reference, some players who scored around 38 5v5 points the past two years...

Bergeron ($6.875m)
Backstrom ($6.700m)
Getzlaf ($8.250m)
Stamkos ($8.500m)
Perry ($8.250m)
Kopitar ($10.000m)
Pavelski ($6.000m)
Kessel ($8.000m)

Average cap - $7.821m

and Giroux is a far better PP player than any of them.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Two games after a decent rest and two absolutely appalling performances. Isn't this what the coach is for really?

I believe we've been asking that question for half a dozen coaches and three GMs.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

I believe we've been asking that question for half a dozen coaches and three GMs.

ok lets be honest.. Lavi ran his shelf life... he was good and then towards the end not good..

fair enuf..

but since then both HC hires SHOULD never have been hired..

Berube had ZERO experience other then watching what Lavi did...

Haks is exactly the same but even less experienced (if thats possible) at the NHL level and its showing in the end result.

the Flyers should have done with every other NHL team does and hire a actual NHL HC with NHL experience at that position..

i will give Hextall credit for trying outside the box, but it shows why college level coachs dont jump to NHL HC in a single leap...

 

[deadhead]

No, Hak wasn't hired to coach THIS team, he was hired to coach the Flyers the next couple years.
I think Hextall would like to have made more changes, but the cap has tied his hands the last two years.

 

[Striiker]

The way he's coaching THIS team is making it look like he's not capable of coaching the Flyers the next couple of years.

I'm not going to waste my time pointing out all the example since you're in denial and would rather be Hakstols White Knight, but the facts are the facts and we've hear enough damning things straight from the horses mouth.

 

[gto64dr]

Hak and his coaches don't seem to be able to get this team started early in any games and as the season progresses it seems to take longer every game. The PP has fallen off a cliff and the PK looks lost. Maybe the talent is not cup loaded but how can you tell when everyone seems lost. Coaching is the main problem.

 

[Striiker]

Hak and his coaches don't seem to be able to get this team started early in any games and as the season progresses it seems to take longer every game. The PP has fallen off a cliff and the PK looks lost. Maybe the talent is not cup loaded but how can you tell when everyone seems lost. Coaching is the main problem.

It's 9th in the league.