GDT: #45 | Flyers at Blue Jackets | Tuesday, January 14, 2025 | 7:00 PM | NBCSP+, 93.3 FM

[Beef Invictus]

I've seen him make some good passes in his US junior career. He's capable of it. But he's so shoot-first that he doesn't do it often.

In college he was missing a lot of guys driving the slot to the net

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Good analysis for Gauthier. The player has to have more than a shot. He has been a Large Boy playing with children up to this point in his career. Now we'll see if he has the stomach to up his game. I don't think so. Too much came too easy so far in his career. His play with the NDT was more of this. His line was always loaded so things opened up for him. Watching CG play a few games this season, he seems to be adverse to getting into crowds and mucking it up as wings in the NHL need to do in order to be successful. On defense, he is lost on the ice.

I continue to believe he'll be a 30-goal scorer in the NHL, albeit an aggravating and inconsistent one.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

A brief history of "There's only one ball/puck":

• You only need 1 good Receiver.
• You only need 2 good Receivers.
• You only need a couple of power hitters.
• There's no reason to build a deep bullpen.
• Lebron/Wade/Bosh is too many stars.
• The Kevin Durant Warriors won't work.

We'll never learn.

 

[renberg]

I still think it's likely he's going to be a good and useful player but it was always insane to me that the Flyers were acting like it was Rebuild Accomplished after drafting just him and before they had Michkov. Worrying process.

He'll be ok. Maybe the equivalent overall of a Tyson Foerster. If so, that's not what one would expect out of a #5 selection. Then it was a weak draft. I wanted Jiricek but he hasn't shown much yet in his career either.

 

[Curufinwe]

Cutter's tied in career points with the #5 pick in 2014, Michael Dal Colle.

https://www.eliteprospects.com/draft/nhl-entry-draft/2014

Christ, the Avs took a guy who never had a single NHL point two spots ahead of Pastrnak. Weird how that didn't ruin their franchise.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Cutter's tied in career points with the #5 pick in 2014, Michael Dal Colle.

https://www.eliteprospects.com/draft/nhl-entry-draft/2014

Christ, the Avs took a guy who never had a single NHL point two spots ahead of Pastrnak. Weird how that didn't ruin their franchise.

Getting a lot of moves right really does a lot to mitigate the misses. The misses look all the worse when all those moves we are told don't matter go wrong.

 

[FLYguy3911]

They got a comp pick for him that I believe they used in a trade.

 

[deadhead]

A brief history of "There's only one ball/puck":

• You only need 1 good Receiver.
• You only need 2 good Receivers.
• You only need a couple of power hitters.
• There's no reason to build a deep bullpen.
• Lebron/Wade/Bosh is too many stars.
• The Kevin Durant Warriors won't work.

We'll never learn.

Baseball is a discrete event game. The balance isn't between hitters, but hitters and defense, think Marsh v Rojas in CF.

A deep bullpen is similar to a good backup goaltender, you don't always need it, but when you do, it better be there.

We've see plenty of basketball teams struggle with too many offensive stars and no one playing defense or rebounding. One reason is contracts tend to be based on scoring, not WAR, so no one wants to defer their touches. It's more obvious than the NHL b/c top players hog most of the PT.

In football, it's not the receivers, it's the receiving corp, as we see with the Eagles, two fine receivers but no slot WR and a TE who can't stay healthy can negate some of the impact of those WRs.

 

[MJL66]

View attachment 961384


They didn't screw up his development.
Provorov was stubborn to a fault, and he was physically maxed out at 19.
He thought he was a star, turns out he was a complementary player who only played well with the right partner.

Yes, they did screw up his development. They played him as their 1D since he was 19/20 when most defenseman are breaking in at sheltered roles and protected by veterans. Provorov got so frustrated with the struggles and the team losing that it affected him mentally. He has never recovered and never fully developed. The Flyers again, put winning every year above player development. It's a text book case of poor player development. It should be an example in the manual of how not to develop a young defenseman.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Getting a lot of moves right really does a lot to mitigate the misses. The misses look all the worse when all those moves we are told don't matter go wrong.

weird idea! but maybe the Flyers should stop selecting miss'..


but of course "size" "snot n balls" and all that...

 

[deadhead]

Yes, they did screw up his development. They played him as their 1D since he was 19/20 when most defenseman are breaking in at sheltered roles and protected by veterans. Provorov got so frustrated with the struggles and the team losing that it affected him mentally. He has never recovered and never fully developed. The Flyers again, put winning every year above player development. It's a text book case of poor player development. It should be an example in the manual of how not to develop a young defenseman.

That's not true. When he started out he was fundamentally sound defensively, great at sealing off the puck against the forecheck, for example. I think what killed his development was scoring 17 goals his second season, now he wanted to be a star offensive defensemen, which was above his pay grade.

 

[Curufinwe]

Weird how it didn't hurt Werenski's development.

Also, Provorov's 20 year old season when he mostly played with Ghost was probably his best.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Provorov's play was very partner-dependent. Provorov had an excellent 2nd season, which was Ghost's rookie year where he took the league by storm.

Then Ghost suffered injuries and his game severely dropped his sophomore season, and Provorov's game stumbled severely, too, without a decent partner. Provy's 4th season they get Niskanen to pair with him, and Provorov bounces back. Then Niskanen retired, Provorov had to kind of do it all himself and started entering full diva mode, the goaltending went to hell, and the rest is history.

 

[Magua]

I will concede that Vigneault was partly responsible for Provorov's regression. His putrid stretch breakout systems choked off things Provorov actually did do well, mostly rush activation. But Provorov was treated like the golden child from the get-go. He received all the minutes with the best partner/forwards, never had the specter of a scratch lurking behind him, never had to play RD when it was asked of every other lefty, couldn't be removed from the PP (despite being a useless statue) because he would react poorly. He is the best (only?) example of a Flyers prospect being coddled.

Provorov's best years were his 2nd and 4th seasons (with partners who outperformed him both years). That doesn't square with a ruined arc. I remember he went like 2000 minutes across seasons at one point with 1 primary assist at 5v5. He lacked higher level creativity/playmaking back to juniors.

He was always toeing the line between hyper-confidence and egotism. As the team floundered and he regressed, the egotism took over. It's hard for me to say he was ruined when I watched the Flyers totally fumble Couturier and Sanheim's development (among others) and not ruin them. Sanheim was more obviously talented, while getting scraps, but his attitude was the polar opposite.

 

[MJL66]

That's not true. When he started out he was fundamentally sound defensively, great at sealing off the puck against the forecheck, for example. I think what killed his development was scoring 17 goals his second season, now he wanted to be a star offensive defensemen, which was above his pay grade.

You're wrong. Provorov's best attribute as a defenseman was joining the rush on the attack. He was fundamentally sound but he was not and never has been a shut down defender. He didn't belong playing against top lines every night at 20 years. Everything I said is correct. Your statement about above his pay grade is illogical.

 

[MJL66]

I will concede that Vigneault was partly responsible for Provorov's regression. His putrid stretch breakout systems choked off things Provorov actually did do well, mostly rush activation. But Provorov was treated like the golden child from the get-go. He received all the minutes with the best partner/forwards, never had the specter of a scratch lurking behind him, never had to play RD when it was asked of every other lefty, couldn't be removed from the PP (despite being a useless statue) because he would react poorly. He is the best (only?) example of a Flyers prospect being coddled.

Provorov's best years were his D+2 and D+4 (with partners who outperformed him both years). That doesn't square with a ruined arc. I remember he went like 2000 minutes across seasons at one point with 1 primary assist at 5v5. He lacked higher level creativity/playmaking back to juniors.

He was always toeing the line between hyper-confidence and egotism. As the team floundered and he regressed, the egotism took over. It's hard for me to say he was ruined when I watched the Flyers totally fumble Couturier and Sanheim's development (among others) and not ruin them. Sanheim was more obviously talented, while getting scraps, but his attitude was the polar opposite.

Sanheim was highly sheltered and was given literally years to grow his game before having to take on the responsibilities and load that Provorov had to take on at 20. Couturier's development was certainly Pejorative Slured by being put in a defensive checking role. At least that team had a legit reason as they were a legit playoff team then. I don't think it had anything to do with egotism with Provorov. I think it had to do with an extreme will to want to win that couldn't be satisfied here. He wore that on his sleeve and just wasn't happy. It was all cumulative with Provorov. The early pressure and the failure of the team to get there took it's toll on Provorov. The key is partners that outperformed him. He simply wasn't a 1D and wanted him to be and used him that way.

 

[pit]

I don't think it had anything to do with egotism with Provorov.
...
He simply wasn't a 1D and wanted him to be and used him that way.

I think your last sentence doesn't agree with your previous sentence.

I agree with your last sentence though.

 

[FlyerNutter]

Provorov, Sanheim, Myers, Ghost, Hagg.

What bullshit that ended up being

 

[freakydallas13]

Provorov, Sanheim, Myers, Ghost, Hagg.

What bullshit that ended up being

With how often the Flyers whiff on developing defencemen, you'd think they would add as many high end D-prospects as they could.

I'm sure Bonk by himself will carry our future D core though. No lessons to be learned here.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Under Hakstol, Sanheim was on a strict 13 minutes a night with no Powerplay time and only ahead of Ghost on the PK pecking order and was not allowed to play the last 5 minutes of the game (and OT) unless the team was trailing. He would literally sit for ten minutes at a time if there were a lot of penalties. Always got benched after mistakes or goals against. Never rewarded for creating offense. I could not think of a worse way to handle a top prospect.

He was not sheltered to give him time to grow. He was sheltered because the coach was forced to have him in the lineup but never trusted him (Sanheim was literally on the top pair and getting PP time the very next game after Hakstol got fired lol).

But that was just in the NHL. As rookies, Provorov was getting more opportunities in the NHL than Sanheim even got in the AHL - started off on the third pair, 30 seconds of scrap PP time whenever TJ Brennan got tired of being out there. Provorov was pretty much 1D from go. You could say that is what ruined his development, but I would guess if you asked most players they would tell you they learn more from playing (a lot) rather than easing into roles.

 

[deadhead]

Under Hakstol, Sanheim was on a strict 13 minutes a night with no Powerplay time and only ahead of Ghost on the PK pecking order and was not allowed to play the last 5 minutes of the game (and OT) unless the team was trailing. He would literally sit for ten minutes at a time if there were a lot of penalties. Always got benched after mistakes or goals against. Never rewarded for creating offense. I could not think of a worse way to handle a top prospect.

He was not sheltered to give him time to grow. He was sheltered because the coach was forced to have him in the lineup but never trusted him (Sanheim was literally on the top pair and getting PP time the very next game after Hakstol got fired lol).

But that was just in the NHL. As rookies, Provorov was getting more opportunities in the NHL than Sanheim even got in the AHL - started off on the third pair, 30 seconds of scrap PP time whenever TJ Brennan got tired of being out there. Provorov was pretty much 1D from go. You could say that is what ruined his development, but I would guess if you asked most players they would tell you they learn more from playing (a lot) rather than easing into roles.

Part of Sanheim's problem was he took a while to fill out.
You look at him now v 5 years ago and it's night and day.
Now he can not only skate, but hold his own in the D-zone, he's not a bruiser but he doesn't get pushed around any more, and even has a little snarl to him.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Part of Sanheim's problem was he took a while to fill out.
You look at him now v 5 years ago and it's night and day.
Now he can not only skate, but hold his own in the D-zone, he's not a bruiser but he doesn't get pushed around any more, and even has a little snarl to him.

The problem with this theory being that he was blatantly too good to be getting the treatment he did, so the size wasn't the problem. Just as it always never has been.