Post-Game Talk: 4-2 Loss. Nothing new

[Panda Bear]

I am not a fan of the swarm system. While I've always advocated for a high tempo, strong side puck pressure system that works zonally, the swarm defence pulls players out of position too frequently because it overcommits players.

Here are two critical problems with the swarm:

1. Since our wingers are committed along the boards, the defencemen have free shots from the points. If we block the shot, we block it closer to our net than if we were playing another system. This means the puck is more likely to be loose in the slot or the hashmarks for an opponent to wire it. If we don't block the shot, we have too many bodies near our goalie. This means he's not able to track the shot as effectively.
   
   
2. Since the centre will get committed along the boards with other players, we're constantly abandoning the slot. This is fine to do against a fourth line, but not against a first line where you have the likes of Daniel Sedin or Alex Ovechkin able to make passes off the boards despite heavy pressure.

In other words, we're scrambling too much. You don't want to scramble at the NHL level.

 

[rboomercat90]

Eberle has been and will continue to be one of our best players.

Not sure why you would think not.

And how good of a player remains to still be seen, that's my point. This team looks so bad again this year that nobodies contract looks good right now. We are left crossing our fingers again and hoping for the best. If the team has been wrong again we are buried under these contracts again just like we were in 2010.

 

[Conkanen*]

Eberle has been and will continue to be one of our best players.

Not sure why you would think not.

Eberle has been the best of the bunch this year by a wide margin. I can't believe he's getting lumped into the sh!tshow here. His only ugly number is a 5.6% shooting percentage which is "unsustainable".

 

[OntOilFan]

Eberle has been the best of the bunch this year by a wide margin. I can't believe he's getting lumped into the sh!tshow here. His only ugly number is a 5.6% shooting percentage which is "unsustainable".

Outside of the Toronto game, Eberle has been a ghost. Not sure what happened to the player who could generate a scoring chance in quicksand, but it's not this player.

This player isn't driving, isn't creating and isn't competing. Completely disagree with your assessment.

 

[GMofOilers]

Eberle has been the best of the bunch this year by a wide margin. I can't believe he's getting lumped into the sh!tshow here. His only ugly number is a 5.6% shooting percentage which is "unsustainable".

Like I said hes been the best every year hes been on this team. Or one of the best

 

[Stoneman89]

I am not a fan of the swarm system. While I've always advocated for a high tempo, strong side puck pressure system that works zonally, the swarm defence pulls players out of position too frequently because it overcommits players.

Here are two critical problems with the swarm:

1. Since our wingers are committed along the boards, the defencemen have free shots from the points. If we block the shot, we block it closer to our net than if we were playing another system. This means the puck is more likely to be loose in the slot or the hashmarks for an opponent to wire it. If we don't block the shot, we have too many bodies near our goalie. This means he's not able to track the shot as effectively.
   
   
2. Since the centre will get committed along the boards with other players, we're constantly abandoning the slot. This is fine to do against a fourth line, but not against a first line where you have the likes of Daniel Sedin or Alex Ovechkin able to make passes off the boards despite heavy pressure.

In other words, we're scrambling too much. You don't want to scramble at the NHL level.

Plenty of other teams in the NHL use this system, Eakins is not some great innovator. He is using what was successful in the AHL and has been used with success in the NHL. You need the proper players to perform it though, and everyone has to buy in. You need a great skating team, we have that. This team's problems aren't the systems. It's the players not buying into them and continuing to do their own thing. Until that happens, I don't care what system you use, whether it's Ralph Krueger's, Dallas Aikin's, or Scotty Bowman's. It will not work with this bunch of guys until they lose the stubborness and play with their heads.

 

[dustrock]

I agree with Replacement - it's nice to have the ability to run the kids ragged if need be, especially in a big game, but it's early days still, and when you get fatigued, you start making mistakes, you can get pushed off the puck more easily, and you often can't make that last little move you need to get clear.

RNH is in absolutely incredible shape but hockey is not soccer, and he shouldn't be out there for half the game.

People look to Gordon and Hemsky's starts and I think the ice time plays into that.

Didn't Hemsky say he preferred to play too many minutes? Veteran experience there.

 

[dustrock]

Plenty of other teams in the NHL use this system, Eakins is not some great innovator. He is using what was successful in the AHL and has been used with success in the NHL. You need the proper players to perform it though, and everyone has to buy in. You need a great skating team, we have that. This team's problems aren't the systems. It's the players not buying into them and continuing to do their own thing. Until that happens, I don't care what system you use, whether it's Ralph Krueger's, Dallas Aikin's, or Scotty Bowman's. It will not work with this bunch of guys until they lose the stubborness and play with their heads.

Someone mentioned Winnipeg, are there other teams that use the swarm?

I do believe we need at least 20 games under Eakins to see the results of the new systems, I just don't want another Krueger scenario where you hear people saying "no one else in the entire league uses this defensive system". For good reason....

 

[ToeMcDrag83]

Little bit of a math problem to pose to everyone.

"We've only played X games out of 82 this season, plenty of hockey left"

If the Rate of Losing in combination with the Suck Factor and Virtual Empty Net Constant all remain the same as thus far, at what point does X become large enough to kill the season?

I think if X=20 and we're boasting only 5-7 wins, we've dug a hole too deep.

This team needs to find some traction well before October is done. Every other team in our division is off to great starts. While not all of them will be this consistent all season, it just means more chasing for us.

Team needs to go on a streak.

 

[Conkanen*]

Outside of the Toronto game, Eberle has been a ghost. Not sure what happened to the player who could generate a scoring chance in quicksand, but it's not this player.

This player isn't driving, isn't creating and isn't competing. Completely disagree with your assessment.

What have you been watching? Neither the numbers nor the game film backs this up.

 

[Replacement*]

What have you been watching? Neither the numbers nor the game film backs this up.

He's been watching the same games I am. 6games have been played and Eberle has pts in two of them. He's been ineffective in all but one game where he got 3/4 of his pts.

He's shooting the puck with no authority, and content to do it peripherally.

He's making some good passes and contributing to some good plays but his confidence continues to be off. We need much more than 1 goal in 6GP from a guy like this that usually has hands.

But lets face it, the 34 goal year was likely the outlier. There was very little in this players history to suggest that huge of a season. I see more of a 25 goal scorer here.

You make mention that the 5% shooting percentage is unsustainable. Sure, but so was 19%. I expect it to settle in around 12%.

Further Eberle is small, refuses to be physical in anyway, and picks his spots and isn't an all round player. Not too many contending teams have guys like this ragging essential minutes.

Eberle is one dimensional, always has been.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

Little bit of a math problem to pose to everyone.

"We've only played X games out of 82 this season, plenty of hockey left"

If the Rate of Losing in combination with the Suck Factor and Virtual Empty Net Constant all remain the same as thus far, at what point does X become large enough to kill the season?

I think if X=20 and we're boasting only 5-7 wins, we've dug a hole too deep.

This team needs to find some traction well before October is done. Every other team in our division is off to great starts. While not all of them will be this consistent all season, it just means more chasing for us.

Team needs to go on a streak.

you're assuming the suck factor is a constant. if it increases, even marginally, then you're looking at season ending at x=-10...but you'd round up to zero.

ie. Never had a chance.

 

[Sloth Slothersons*]

Ya Eberle's done nothing.

 

[Conkanen*]

He's been watching the same games I am. 6games have been played and Eberle has pts in two of them. He's been ineffective in all but one game where he got 3/4 of his pts.

He's shooting the puck with no authority, and content to do it peripherally.

He's making some good passes and contributing to some good plays but his confidence continues to be off. We need much more than 1 goal in 6GP from a guy like this that usually has hands.

But lets face it, the 34 goal year was likely the outlier. There was very little in this players history to suggest that huge of a season. I see more of a 25 goal scorer here.

You make mention that the 5% shooting percentage is unsustainable. Sure, but so was 19%. I expect it to settle in around 12%.

Further Eberle is small, refuses to be physical in anyway, and picks his spots and isn't an all round player. Not too many contending teams have guys like this ragging essential minutes.

Eberle is one dimensional, always has been.

1. He's creating more chances than anyone on the team. Indisputable. Go find the numbers.
2. Shooting percentage will be somewhere 5% and 19% I am sure. It's called an average.
3. He is the only forward other than Arc who is a plus player on this disaster of a team(+1).
4. He is the only player not playing on last year's #1 line that dominated the competion 5 on 5. Hmmmm...draw your own conclusions.
5. Only one of the kids to actually play a full season and score 70+ pts. Yes it's early in everyone's career and I've gone on record as saying RNH will be the best of the lot. But the pt stands imo.
6. He gives it up a rate commensurate with the the amount he actually handles/posseses it and it's less that a lot of really good players out there. Got numbers for that one too but you can go find them yourself.
7. Hits? Oh well...talk about a useless stat. Well he's been hitting as much as the great Ryan Kesler this year.
8. I won't even bother reciting Corsi cause you know better.
9. "We need much more than 1 goal in 6GP" The year he scored 34 he had 1 goal in 8 games.
10. "We need much more than 1 goal in 6GP from a guy like this that usually has hands. But lets face it, the 34 goal year was likely the outlier."

So he has the "hands" to do it but the 34 goal season was an outlier?!?!?! mmmm k

Other than that...

 

[Butane Fan]

The yak is back. Jonesy hope he remembers to skate because he was awful in preseason

 

[Replacement*]

1. He's creating more chances than anyone on the team. Indisputable. Go find the numbers.

Where? Please tell me you're not using Staples as a legitimate source. Please.

2. Shooting percentage will be somewhere 5% and 19% I am sure. It's called an average.
3. He is the only forward other than Arc who is a plus player on this disaster of a team(+1).

This would have more to do with Arco who plays a smart, honest game. Eberle has never been noted for his own zone play. Not the least because he is often finding it long after the opponent has it in our end.

4. He is the only player not playing on last year's #1 line that dominated the competion 5 on 5. Hmmmm...draw your own conclusions.

Where you getting this from?

5. Only one of the kids to actually play a full season and score 70+ pts. Yes it's early in everyone's career and I've gone on record as saying RNH will be the best of the lot. But the pt stands imo.

Eberle is a good player, don't get me wrong, but we've seen his best. I'll stand by that and anybody can look me up later.

6. He gives it up a rate commensurate with the the amount he actually handles/posseses it and it's less that a lot of really good players out there. Got numbers for that one too but you can go find them yourself.

Takeaway/giveaway stats are garbage. More noise than they are worth. No standardization, poor definition, no inter observer reliability or consistency, and frankly not very useful.

7. Hits? Oh well...talk about a useless stat. Well he's been hitting as much as the great Ryan Kesler this year.

Eberle is a creampuff. A pacifist. At least Gagner has worked to get bigger, more aggressive. Eberle is seemingly content being weak in an NHL game that will pass him by.

8. I won't even bother reciting Corsi cause you know better.
9. "We need much more than 1 goal in 6GP" The year he scored 34 he had 1 goal in 8 games.
10. "We need much more than 1 goal in 6GP from a guy like this that usually has hands. But lets face it, the 34 goal year was likely the outlier."

So he has the "hands" to do it but the 34 goal season was an outlier?!?!?! mmmm k

Other than that...

19% shooting percentage is unsustainable. Theres few things I agree with from Dellow but that one is obvious. Its a little odd you would want to quote Corsi when its adherents state Eberle is overvaluated based on an outlier year. Should I mention offensive zone starts he got that year. May as well tilt the ice.
Unless you expect Eberle to defy all history and post a 20% shooting percentage over a season the GF standard won't be matched. Another thing of note is he's not getting as many primo SOG. Not from good scoring areas. I've seen a lot of muff shots.

 

[GMofOilers]

Cant believe this thread is turning out into a debate if Eberle is good or not.

The guy has been our best player for how many years?

 

[Mcnotloilersfan]

I think what people are failing to see about Eberle is something that the Eastern Conference exec said, only he and Gagner are buying in to a 200 ft game (although I think RNH should be put in there too).

I would never trade Hall, but he needs to be more creative with the puck. He always rushes it down the left side as quickly as possible, and I've noticed it becomes predictable. He needs to break to the middle sometimes, use his linemates more, and even change up the pace at times.

 

[Conkanen*]

Where? Please tell me you're not using Staples as a legitimate source. Please.

This would have more to do with Arco who plays a smart, honest game. Eberle has never been noted for his own zone play. Not the least because he is often finding it long after the opponent has it in our end.

Where you getting this from?

Eberle is a good player, don't get me wrong, but we've seen his best. I'll stand by that and anybody can look me up later.

Takeaway/giveaway stats are garbage. More noise than they are worth. No standardization, poor definition, no inter observer reliability or consistency, and frankly not very useful.

Eberle is a creampuff. A pacifist. At least Gagner has worked to get bigger, more aggressive. Eberle is seemingly content being weak in an NHL game that will pass him by.


19% shooting percentage is unsustainable. Theres few things I agree with from Dellow but that one is obvious. Its a little odd you would want to quote Corsi when its adherents state Eberle is overvaluated based on an outlier year. Should I mention zone starts he got that year. May as well tilt the ice.
Unless you expect Eberle to defy all history and post a 20% shooting percentage over a season the GF standard won't be matched. Another thing of note is he's not getting as many primo SOG. Not from good scoring areas. I've seen a lot of muff shots.

Wow. Lot of concrete stuff there. Not a single rebuttal worth commenting on.

Get someone else to fall into your trap R.

 

[Replacement*]

Cant believe this thread is turning out into a debate if Eberle is good or not.

The guy has been our best player for how many years?

In what way was he our best player last year? In what way was he our best player his first year?

Lets not forget Eberle gets more pts on the basis of he spends most of his time playing with.

Drawing Hall and RNH is a plum assignment for any player. Like I said earlier Arco would be putting up 40pt NHL seasons with those two linemates. Clearly Eberle is a lot better, but what would his production be like if he was on a 2nd or gasp 3rd line?

Take away the brutal Leafs game that was devoid of coaching, any intensity, or any sight of system or defensive play and Jordan has one point this season.

He's a good time charlie that falls down at the sight of stiff opposition. Happened in games even at AHL level.

I'll change my opinion on Eberle if I see him start producing in tough close checking games. A lot of scouting adjustments have taken place since his breakout year and the answer to him is keep him outside and play him physical any chance. Eberle has no answer to that. What do you think this guy would accomplish in the playoffs?

 

[Replacement*]

Wow. Lot of concrete stuff there. Not a single rebuttal worth commenting on.

Get someone else to fall into your trap R.

Nice try. You didn't specifically cite a single source.

Anyhow, we won't agree on this anyway at this time.

 

[Conkanen*]

Lets not forget Eberle gets more pts on the basis of he spends most of his time playing with.

I stopped reading after that. *sigh*

You do realize 2/3rds of last years best line was dominated right?
While the remaining third played with a career AHLer and Ryan Smyth.

wow.

 

[GMofOilers]

In what way was he our best player last year? In what way was he our best player his first year?

Lets not forget Eberle gets more pts on the basis of he spends most of his time playing with.

Drawing Hall and RNH is a plum assignment for any player. Like I said earlier Arco would be putting up 40pt NHL seasons with those two linemates. Clearly Eberle is a lot better, but what would his production be like if he was on a 2nd or gasp 3rd line?

Take away the brutal Leafs game that was devoid of coaching, any intensity, or any sight of system or defensive play and Jordan has one point this season.

He's a good time charlie that falls down at the sight of stiff opposition. Happened in games even at AHL level.

I'll change my opinion on Eberle if I see him start producing in tough close checking games. A lot of scouting adjustments have taken place since his breakout year and the answer to him is keep him outside and play him physical any chance. Eberle has no answer to that. What do you think this guy would accomplish in the playoffs?

Wouldn't happen Replacement, he has proved the minute he came in hes a top 6 player. He produces points. He plays a 200 ft game.

He might be a complimentary player, that I will agree. That being said he's prob one of the best in the league at the complimentary game.

 

[Replacement*]

I stopped reading after that. *sigh*

You do realize 2/3rds of last years best line was dominated right?
While the remaining third played with a career AHLer and Ryan Smyth.

wow.

If its just rude response I want no part of it. Bye.

 

[Replacement*]

Wouldn't happen Replacement, he has proved the minute he came in hes a top 6 player. He produces points. He plays a 200 ft game.

He might be a complimentary player, that I will agree. That being said he's prob one of the best in the league at the complimentary game.

Being that this can't apparently be discussed in the thread I'll PM you a message and look for your feedback there so its not continued OT here.

cheers