GDT: #34 | Blue Jackets vs Flyers | Saturday, December 21, 2024 | 7:00 PM | NBCSP, 93.3 FM

[Magua]

You win with elite talent in this league. You're incorrect that it is about waiting for a rare generational talent. It's about elite talent, not just generational. Although that would be good also. Now look at what the odds are of winning the way the Flyers want to do it. Signing players like Tippet to 8 year deals and waiting for the cap to clear up so they can get into free agency again. Yea, that will work. I guess you prefer the perpetuity of what the Flyers have been for the last 14 years and counting. Completely irrelevant in the league. Sticking to old and outdated methods and processes in perpetuity. Maybe part of the issue is that the Flyers have a large portion of the fanbase that is satisfied with making the playoffs and eats that up. Foolishly thinking that it will lead to something.

 

[MJL66]

I want to watch a competitive team. I had my fill of wasting my time with unwatchable, uncompetitive hockey with a team going in the wrong direction.

Under Torts, they've been watchable. They compete. I feel like they're going in the right direction.

I feel like they've outperformed expectations. The last 2.5 years. They don't give up. They have the most comeback wins in the league this season, even with complete garbage goaltending because they lost their starter to a criminal charge. Torts himself is entertaining.

They barely missed the playoffs last year. Still had a chance on the last day.

And they're still the 3rd youngest team in the league with a bunch of draft picks upcoming.

It's much easier to invest my time watching a competitive product I feel is heading in the right direction.

Maybe they won't win a Cup, but they're watchable. I don't want to waste more years of my life watching non-playoff drek in the prayer of hitting the lottery with a Mario Lemieux or Crosby.

And teams like St. Louis and Los Angeles illustrate that you don't have to tank and be awful forever to rebuild and win. Hockey is different than hoops. Just let me watch a competitive product and give me a little hope. It's not all CUP OR BUST for me. I'm sick of being a boring doormat. At least I want to watch a playoff team. Too long without the playoffs destroys fan interest.

I legitimately feel sorry for you. I really do that you set the bar so low. The exact kind of fan this organization is targeting. Sniff around the playoffs and you're happy. You'll take that even if it leads to nowhere rather than the inevitable that needs to happen that has a better chance of leading to glory. My bar is not cup or bust. Winning the cup takes some luck and good fortune. It's legit cup contention or bust. By the way, it took 7 years for the Kings to build the team to be good enough around their 1C Anze Kopitar to win the Cup. That's generally about how long it takes or longer once drafting key players. Who is the Flyers 1C that they can build around?
The level that the Flyers are competitive at is a disaster for them. Keeps them in the worst position a team in the NHL can be in.

 

[deadhead]

You know I agree with you that it's less about the road you take and more how you navigate the twists. Although I do think stripping is easier in broad strokes. See all of the praise Mike Grier is getting for proof of that. I very much still do not believe in that org.

To me, the difference is that one is talking about what the Flyers should do and the other is assuming that all blowing it up roads will be managed as poorly as Buffalo's was. Essentially, you can disagree with the former and it's just a normal disagreement. If your argument depends on assuming a specific level of confidence, you're not actually saying anything. It's just masturbation.

I don't know if Briere will prove to be competent or not.
Hextall started strong, then petered out, with bad decisions and bad drafting.
Briere started strong with the Provorov trade (2 1sts, 2 2nds, Grans for Provorov and cap space), and obtaining Michkov without panicking and giving up assets.
We'll see about Buium v Jett. Check back in 3 years.
Can he sustain? That's the $64K question.

If he is a good judge of talent and a smart administrator (recognize who's doing a good job and who isn't and replace the later) then this path is as good as tanking - any coherent strategy competently implemented probably has a similar probability of success.

But it's only his second season as GM, by the fall of 2026, we'll have a much better idea if his approach is working or doomed to futility.

Given what Briere was handed, I think this is the right strategy.
They blew two prime opportunities to tank and quickly turn things around.
But you can only work with the situation you have, not the situation you wished you had.

 

[MJL66]

The obession with tanking is a fetish.

There's certain times it makes sense, after the Carter/Richards trades, after the 2018-19 seasons, both would have been good times to tank.

When Briere took over, it was not a good situation for tanking, ideally you want a lot of veterans on the verge of FA (Rangers a few years ago) that you can move, garner a bunch of 1st rd picks, tank for a couple years with a core of early 20s players in place.

Problem for Briere was Couts, Sanheim and Risto were signed to long-term deals, G had been traded. The only prime tradeable assets were Provorov and TK. Only reason this team is drafting in the low teens is bad goaltending. There's just too much talent, tanking would require a wholesale fire sale of young talent. It's really hard to be top 4 bad. Like 66 points bad or worse.

Briere hasn't take over. Tortorella has. Chicago and San Jose don't seem to show any problems getting it done and starting over. Both are significantly ahead of the Flyers in building a legit elite core. It wouldn't need to be a fire sale. Just done smartly and the Flyers aren't smart.

 

[deadhead]

I'd also point out that nitpicking every decision is silly.

Howie is a great example:
missed on Dotson, White, maybe Huff.
But great draft (Mitchell, DeJean, Hunt), signings, Baun, Barkley, CJGJ, Becton, patience, Dean.

Now there's far more turnover in the NFL, but the same principle applies, judge a GM over a couple years and the sum of his decisions. A lot of moves are calculated gambles, which often don't work out. It's not whether you miss a bet, it's whether you do it on a regular basis.

 

[freakydallas13]

I want to watch a competitive team. I had my fill of wasting my time with unwatchable, uncompetitive hockey with a team going in the wrong direction.

Under Torts, they've been watchable. They compete. I feel like they're going in the right direction.

I feel like they've outperformed expectations. The last 2.5 years. They don't give up. They have the most comeback wins in the league this season, even with complete garbage goaltending because they lost their starter to a criminal charge. Torts himself is entertaining.

They barely missed the playoffs last year. Still had a chance on the last day.

And they're still the 3rd youngest team in the league with a bunch of draft picks upcoming.

It's much easier to invest my time watching a competitive product I feel is heading in the right direction.

Maybe they won't win a Cup, but they're watchable. I don't want to waste more years of my life watching non-playoff drek in the prayer of hitting the lottery with a Mario Lemieux or Crosby.

And teams like St. Louis and Los Angeles illustrate that you don't have to tank and be awful forever to rebuild and win. Hockey is different than hoops. Just let me watch a competitive product and give me a little hope. It's not all CUP OR BUST for me. I'm sick of being a boring doormat. At least I want to watch a playoff team. Too long without the playoffs destroys fan interest.

Interesting you prefer the Torts product to previous iterations of this team, seeing as the Flyers under Hextall/Fletcher actually made the playoffs and Torts hasn't yet.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I'd also point out that nitpicking every decision is silly.

Howie is a great example:
missed on Dotson, White, maybe Huff.
But great draft (Mitchell, DeJean, Hunt), signings, Baun, Barkley, CJGJ, Becton, patience, Dean.

Now there's far more turnover in the NFL, but the same principle applies, judge a GM over a couple years and the sum of his decisions. A lot of moves are calculated gambles, which often don't work out. It's not whether you miss a bet, it's whether you do it on a regular basis.

Evaluating is not nitpicking. I haven't complained about Dotson or Huff. Those are reasonable misses.

I will bitch about White until the day I die. The process behind that move was blind hope. The more of those moves they make, the more likely it is they lose the edge.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I think I could make a convincing argument that this obsession with the Sabres is a fetish.

It's endlessly amusing that anyone can think that "what if we become the Sabres" works as some ominous possible outcome.


We already are the Sabres.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Guys like Eichel & Reinhart were pretty good players there too but they wore the losses but probably the same people who constantly bring Buffalo up.

Acquiring elite talent is probably the hardest thing to do in the NHL but the general standard of competence in front offices league wide even when they get it fail spectacularly building around them.

Being bad enough to get the elite talent means you probably aren't competent enough to do anything with it.

 

[Beef Invictus]

You know I agree with you that it's less about the road you take and more how you navigate the twists. Although I do think stripping is easier in broad strokes. See all of the praise Mike Grier is getting for proof of that. I very much still do not believe in that org.

To me, the difference is that one is talking about what the Flyers should do and the other is assuming that all blowing it up roads will be managed as poorly as Buffalo's was. Essentially, you can disagree with the former and it's just a normal disagreement. If your argument depends on assuming a specific level of confidence, you're not actually saying anything. It's just masturbation.

So is the vast majority of metal and jazz.

I don't know if Briere will prove to be competent or not.

I do

I'd also point out that nitpicking every decision is silly.

Howie is a great example:
missed on Dotson, White, maybe Huff.
But great draft (Mitchell, DeJean, Hunt), signings, Baun, Barkley, CJGJ, Becton, patience, Dean.

Now there's far more turnover in the NFL, but the same principle applies, judge a GM over a couple years and the sum of his decisions. A lot of moves are calculated gambles, which often don't work out. It's not whether you miss a bet, it's whether you do it on a regular basis.

The sum of Briere's decisions is bad

 

[JojoTheWhale]

So is the vast majority of metal and jazz.

Absolutely not. You have to be able to listen to play jazz well. The quote that starts off the excellent documentary on why some people loathe Kenny G (who sucks ass) from a couple of years ago explains it best:

Most of the writers featured in the film identify as jazz aficionados and none see Kenny G’s music as worthy of the genre. In the film, critic Will Layman says of this music: “It’s sort of related to jazz but it isn’t jazz.” Noting the fact that the musicians in Kenny G’s band tend to support his solos rather than contribute their own, Layman said, “there’s no call and response, no dialogue among the musicians. This is not sex. This is masturbation.”

Now metal....yeah. I'll go along with that one.

Sidenote, but the director of that doc is one of my favorites. She's a crazy person. (complimentary)

 

[Beef Invictus]

Absolutely not. You have to be able to listen to play jazz well. The quote that starts off the excellent documentary on why some people loathe Kenny G (who sucks ass) from a couple of years ago explains it best:



Now metal....yeah. I'll go along with that one.

Sidenote, but the director of that doc is one of my favorites. She's a crazy person. (complimentary)

I love jazz. I said jazz just to tweak you. I've done it. I've won.


I will not be taking any further questions about Site Rule 2. Thank you.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I love jazz. I said jazz just to tweak you. I've done it. I've won.


I will not be taking any further questions about Site Rule 2. Thank you.

Beef, look at this lad. This is peak darting. The day can only go down from here.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Beef, look at this lad. This is peak darting. The day can only go down from here.

That's a precision athlete in peak form

 

[MJL66]

It's endlessly amusing that anyone can think that "what if we become the Sabres" works as some ominous possible outcome.


We already are the Sabres.

Probably worse than the Sabres. At least they have legit #1 defenseman young talent and a young potential 1C, even though Cozens is struggling this year. Plus they're looking at adding another potential elite young talent in the upcoming draft. People just don't seem to understand that it better to be a failed rebuilding team than it is to be where the Flyers are and are heading,

 

[deadhead]

Evaluating is not nitpicking. I haven't complained about Dotson or Huff. Those are reasonable misses.

I will bitch about White until the day I die. The process behind that move was blind hope. The more of those moves they make, the more likely it is they lose the edge.

I understand the logic behind White, I think they knew his limitations but thought he'd have value as an "A" gap blitzer, and as a stopgap while they looked for a better solution. Overpay but the logic wasn't absurd.

At the time, Baun was a backup OLB, Burks a journeyman ILB, Dean a total ??? and Trotter a promising rookie who needed to be on the Edwards' redshirt program. VanSumeran a raw athlete who was primarily ST but needed to marinate another year or two. Smith not instinctual enough to move inside.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I understand the logic behind White, I think they knew his limitations but thought he'd have value as an "A" gap blitzer, and as a stopgap while they looked for a better solution. Overpay but the logic wasn't absurd.

Deady, I've been saying Devin White sucks since he was at LSU. I said this when he hilariously made an All Pro team. I promise you we're going to just agree to disagree on this one. I believe this one like I believe I require air.

 

[deadhead]

Absolutely not. You have to be able to listen to play jazz well. The quote that starts off the excellent documentary on why some people loathe Kenny G (who sucks ass) from a couple of years ago explains it best:



Now metal....yeah. I'll go along with that one.

Sidenote, but the director of that doc is one of my favorites. She's a crazy person. (complimentary)

That boy is damaged.

Just put on some classic Miles Davis, Kind of Blue, Sketches of Spain, In a Silent Way.

The Grateful Dead appreciated jazz, they'd have John Coltrane etc. open for them in NY to get them exposure. But they never pretended to be jazz musicians, their jams were their own creation, jazz influenced but with classical notes (Lesh was classically trained), bluegrass (Garcia could have been a major picker), etc.

Now some jazz I'll admit leaves me cold, too much technical dexterity, not enough "soul." I have the same problem with bluegrass players and rock guitarists who are speed and flash but otherwise empty.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

I want to watch a competitive team. I had my fill of wasting my time with unwatchable, uncompetitive hockey with a team going in the wrong direction.

Under Torts, they've been watchable. They compete. I feel like they're going in the right direction.

I feel like they've outperformed expectations. The last 2.5 years. They don't give up. They have the most comeback wins in the league this season, even with complete garbage goaltending because they lost their starter to a criminal charge. Torts himself is entertaining.

They barely missed the playoffs last year. Still had a chance on the last day.

And they're still the 3rd youngest team in the league with a bunch of draft picks upcoming.

It's much easier to invest my time watching a competitive product I feel is heading in the right direction.

Maybe they won't win a Cup, but they're watchable. I don't want to waste more years of my life watching non-playoff drek in the prayer of hitting the lottery with a Mario Lemieux or Crosby.

And teams like St. Louis and Los Angeles illustrate that you don't have to tank and be awful forever to rebuild and win. Hockey is different than hoops. Just let me watch a competitive product and give me a little hope. It's not all CUP OR BUST for me. I'm sick of being a boring doormat. At least I want to watch a playoff team. Too long without the playoffs destroys fan interest.

You said it twice and it's the most important message here. You "feel" like the team is headed in the right direction so it makes them easier to watch.

I see nothing that suggests they're moving in the right direction and, most of the time this season, I've found games incredibly hard to watch. Last season they were fun. Outside of a couple of guys this season, watching has been a chore.

What suggests this will be a perennial playoff team anytime in the near to medium future? We are fully in the worst segment in Flyers hockey history and they have one star (TK) and one potential superstar (Michkov). There isn't even a foundation to suggest this "core" will be anything more than a playoff bubble team indefinitely.

Despite the mantra, most of the fans that yearn for a good team aren't "Cup or bust". The Stanley Cup is the hardest trophy in professional sports to win. You can have the best roster every year and fail to win. The Bruins have been one of the best teams in the NHL for more than 15 years and have one Cup to show for it. I want that kind of feeling every year: thinking you can win the Cup if the pieces fell right. When's the last time you could honestly believe that before opening day puck drop? 2010/11? 2011/12?

We're trending towards 5 straight seasons missing the playoffs. People sure love shitting on Buffalo, but the Flyers are closer to them than any of the teams that have recently won the Cup.

Seems like these days it doesn't matter what's actually happening, it just matters how you (not "you", specifically, but in the general sense) feel about it. You feel great about the direction of the team. That's good for you. I feel less enthusiastic every year. The franchise has been going backwards since Snider cut bait on Richards and Carter. That's a long f***ing time ago. I feel like shit. That's bad for me. I wish I could share optimism about the team moving forward, but Danny Briere and whomever is in his ear has not inspired confidence yet.

I also couldn't disagree more about how you see John Tortorella coaching this team. The day he leaves the organization will be one of my happiest Flyers memories and I hate that that's the case.

 

[deadhead]

Deady, I've been saying Devin White sucks since he was at LSU. I said this when he hilariously made an All Pro team. I promise you we're going to just agree to disagree on this one. I believe this one like I believe I require air.

He's brain dead, but smart DCs take guys like that, give them limited responsibilities and let them ride their athleticism. Not a good long-term strategy, but can reap dividends until OCs figure out how to use their athleticism against them.

 

[Lord Defect]

Beef, look at this lad. This is peak darting. The day can only go down from here.

Why are there bottles of water and not pints of beer???

 

[Curufinwe]

Wow, Jarry is worse than all of our goalies

 

[Beef Invictus]

That boy is damaged.

Just put on some classic Miles Davis, Kind of Blue, Sketches of Spain, In a Silent Way.

The Grateful Dead appreciated jazz, they'd have John Coltrane etc. open for them in NY to get them exposure. But they never pretended to be jazz musicians, their jams were their own creation, jazz influenced but with classical notes (Lesh was classically trained), bluegrass (Garcia could have been a major picker), etc.

Now some jazz I'll admit leaves me cold, too much technical dexterity, not enough "soul." I have the same problem with bluegrass players and rock guitarists who are speed and flash but otherwise empty.

I once used the entirety of Kind Of Blue as a GDT song

 

[MJL66]

I want to watch a competitive team. I had my fill of wasting my time with unwatchable, uncompetitive hockey with a team going in the wrong direction.

Under Torts, they've been watchable. They compete. I feel like they're going in the right direction.

I feel like they've outperformed expectations. The last 2.5 years. They don't give up. They have the most comeback wins in the league this season, even with complete garbage goaltending because they lost their starter to a criminal charge. Torts himself is entertaining.

They barely missed the playoffs last year. Still had a chance on the last day.

And they're still the 3rd youngest team in the league with a bunch of draft picks upcoming.

It's much easier to invest my time watching a competitive product I feel is heading in the right direction.

Maybe they won't win a Cup, but they're watchable. I don't want to waste more years of my life watching non-playoff drek in the prayer of hitting the lottery with a Mario Lemieux or Crosby.

And teams like St. Louis and Los Angeles illustrate that you don't have to tank and be awful forever to rebuild and win. Hockey is different than hoops. Just let me watch a competitive product and give me a little hope. It's not all CUP OR BUST for me. I'm sick of being a boring doormat. At least I want to watch a playoff team. Too long without the playoffs destroys fan interest.

In the words of Commodus, "Are you not entertained!"