Prospect Info: 33rd overall Roby Jarventie LW FIN

[JeffreyLFC]

I am just a lurker looking for more info on my favorite prospect Roby Jarventie from last year just to find out defensive pairing and discussion about sens draft record.

 

[Xspyrit]

To be honest looking back at our drafting history the past 10 years, we have not been very good in rounds 1&2. Most of our skill players came from the later rounds.

You should be more exact in the years because it might be very different in the last few years

2017 : Formenton (also acquired Brannstrom and Norris)
2018 : Tkachuk, JBD
2019 : Thomson, Pinto, Sogaard
2020 : Suetzle, Sanderson, Greig, Jarventie, Kleven, Sokolov

If you look at 2008 and 2009, it was actually really really good. In 2010, we didn't have many picks but managed to get Mark Stone so major success with just 1 good pick. 2011 was a bit disappointing but Mika is great. There was a bit of of down in 2012-14 (but also due to the fact that we didn't have many "high picks"). We could have done much better obviously but the players didn't entirely bust. 2015 was obviously really great. 2016 is tbd with Brown.

But agreed on principle, if we weren't able to find talent anywhere in the draft, our drafting wouldn't be quite as good.

Ceci in particular will end up playing far more than an average 1st rounder

And possibly Lazar as well if he's successfully reinvented himself as a bottom 6 player

And Ceci could have a more stable end to his career if he is properly slotted in the line-up, i.e. at least 3 very good D-men, ideally 4.

I disagree he did not look promising outside his rookie year.

there is no hindsight needed. They turned out to be poor I was responding to that. I’m not saying they should have picked someone else. It’s that the player they picked turned out to be bad. Which lends to the perspective that we haven’t been that successful in the first round.

He actually looked totally fine until Boucher showed up, which is his first 3 years. Advanced stats say that. He even scored 10 even strenght goals in his 3rd year. But then was morphed into a top shutdown D-man for some reason.

Now if you look at that 2012 draft, there's not that many options after Ceci where they could have been "right" (the 4 guys selected just after and then? Would have probably been major "reaches"). Really not a great draft. He doesn't need to be "good" to be a better pick than the vast majority of other possiblities.

I do not understand what makes it convenient? I originally stated our picks in the 1st round the past 10 years have been underwhelming, you decided to bring up Karlsson, who was drafted in 2008. I do not see how that fits into my original argument.

Even if you factor in Karlsson's draft year of 2008, that makes only 4 legitimate prospects drafted in the 1st round that we can feel proud of:

Karlsson 2008
Zibanejad 2011
Chabot 2015
Tkachuk 2018

4 players out of 11 drafts, are you saying we should be proud of that? Like I said it is early for some of the ones we picked, so maybe my argument needs to be wider so say 2005-2018?

Still bad drafting in the early rounds.

But do the 2nd round picks also count or not? Because guys like Lehner and Silfverberg were good picks, Even Wiercioch because he played and even did some good things. It didn't last very long but vs the usual 2nd round rate success, it's not even that bad. Noesen/Puempel/Prince disappointed but at least weren't total busts. 2011 wasn't that great. There weren't that many great options at where we picked.

Also note that we didn't have that many (if any) 1st and 2nd round picks in several of these drafts. A more efficient way to look at it would be to state the exact period and then count the number of picks and count the number of successes and failures. Then look at which spots these picks were made and compare. You'd find out that we didn't fail that much.

 

[Xspyrit]

Any new reviews on Jarventie's play? lol could we move that draft discussion to the right thread?

Doesn’t really matter that other players around noesen have played less. Players taken after Noesen have had good careers.
Cowen career was derailed becuase he wasn’t very good.

How close were you to following and scouting NHL prospects in 2009? Based on other posts, you seem to rely heavily on "concensus". That's how Cowen was perceived pre-draft :

• ISS: 7
• CSB: 9-NA
• TSN: 11
• THN: 4
• Hockey Writers : 11

And that was after suffering a pretty bad knee injury in his draft year, the only reason he dropped as he was ranked higher at the start of the season. Reality is he has had several significant injuries, altering his developmental trajectory quite significantly. Despite that, he looked pretty promising in his rookie season and at the start of that 2012-13 lockout season in the AHL, he looked absolutely dominant. He got injured quite quickly though, and never looked the same after that. It just went downhill from there. His own mind seem to have played a role in his own demise, he wanted to be good but that was not possible anymore. He needed to adjust and become a role player.

And who was better picks after Noesen exactly? Danault at 26, Namestnikov at 27, Rakkell at 30, Mayfield 34, Jenner 37 and some other good picks from the 2nd round which YOU would have seen as major reaches...

Good thing is the Sens seem to be going with "reaches" more than before.

Oh and Noesen was another guys that had his career derailed by injuries. I mean, that should be clear to every hockey fan.

No offense but that is a very defeatist perspective to have; "it is ok to suck because other teams suck too".

I really didn't see it like that, unless you think that reality "suck"

It's just unrealistic to expect your best batter to hit an homerun every time he goes at the plate, even if he is Mark McGwire or Ken Griffey Jr.

Wolanin is an NHLer until he proves otherwise. Kid arguably looked like a top 4 D in his 30 game stint in 2018/19. Was on pace for 33P/82GP and was showing off his skating and poise with the puck every night.

I have been high on WOWlanin for quite some time. He was older but impressed me the most at that 2008 rookie tournament, over some pretty big name prospects from Montreal/Ottawa/Toronto.

My worry is he hasn't played a lot of competitive hockey in the last 18 months. Hopefully it didn't affect his "development/level"

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Any new reviews on Jarventie's play? lol could we move that draft discussion to the right thread?



How close were you to following and scouting NHL prospects in 2009? Based on other posts, you seem to rely heavily on "concensus". That's how Cowen was perceived pre-draft :

• ISS: 7
• CSB: 9-NA
• TSN: 11
• THN: 4
• Hockey Writers : 11

And that was after suffering a pretty bad knee injury in his draft year, the only reason he dropped as he was ranked higher at the start of the season. Reality is he has had several significant injuries, altering his developmental trajectory quite significantly. Despite that, he looked pretty promising in his rookie season and at the start of that 2012-13 lockout season in the AHL, he looked absolutely dominant. He got injured quite quickly though, and never looked the same after that. It just went downhill from there. His own mind seem to have played a role in his own demise, he wanted to be good but that was not possible anymore. He needed to adjust and become a role player.

And who was better picks after Noesen exactly? Danault at 26, Namestnikov at 27, Rakkell at 30, Mayfield 34, Jenner 37 and some other good picks from the 2nd round which YOU would have seen as major reaches...

Good thing is the Sens seem to be going with "reaches" more than before.

Oh and Noesen was another guys that had his career derailed by injuries. I mean, that should be clear to every hockey fan.



I really didn't see it like that, unless you think that reality "suck"

It's just unrealistic to expect your best batter to hit an homerun every time he goes at the plate, even if he is Mark McGwire or Ken Griffey Jr.



I have been high on WOWlanin for quite some time. He was older but impressed me the most at that 2008 rookie tournament, over some pretty big name prospects from Montreal/Ottawa/Toronto.

My worry is he hasn't played a lot of competitive hockey in the last 18 months. Hopefully it didn't affect his "development/level"

I’m not saying there were better picks. I’m just saying this players were bad.

also I think saying “look where player x was ranked!” Is ridiculous. The scouts job is to find the best player at the position their picking. Just becuase he was ranked around that spot on other lists doesn’t mean it was a great pick.

so I’d take a guy 10th. And on every list you mentioned. He’s tenth. It’s a good pick regardless of outcome? Of course not.

 

[Xspyrit]

I’m not saying there were better picks. I’m just saying this players were bad.

also I think saying “look where player x was ranked!” Is ridiculous. The scouts job is to find the best player at the position their picking. Just becuase he was ranked around that spot on other lists doesn’t mean it was a great pick.

so I’d take a guy 10th. And on every list you mentioned. He’s tenth. It’s a good pick regardless of outcome? Of course not.

That's really not consistent with other posts you have made recently.

And you also said "Players taken after Noesen have had good careers" (which is true). That implies you think there was better picks. OF COURSE there was, like the vast majority of picks outside of the McDavids/Crosbys and late round gems, but just not that many as you seemed to imply

 

[Burrowsaurus]

That's really not consistent with other posts you have made recently.

And you also said "Players taken after Noesen have had good careers" (which is true). That implies you think there was better picks. OF COURSE there was, like the vast majority of picks outside of the McDavids/Crosbys and late round gems, but just not that many as you seemed to imply

No dude it’s totally consistent. I’m not saying our list should look like ANYONE elses list. In fact. I would expect and prefer our list look TOTALLY DIFFERENT!

yes. By definition. Noesen (for example) was not the best pick at that spot. That’s how it is. Am I saying “ugh we shouldn’t have taken him what idiots!” No. Scouts can’t always be right.

the OP said we haven’t drafted well out of the first round last 10 years. That’s it.
So.
Cowen rundblad (trade) zibanejad puempel Noesen Ceci lazar Chabot White.
I won’t count past that because they’re simply not done developing yet. Neither is chabot or white but whatever.

I mean that’s 3 out of 9 (cowen rundblad puempel) that are flat out out of the nhl because they simply cannot play. I don’t care if consensus lists had them ranked around where we picked them lol. They can’t play. They were poor picks. Period.

Noesen ceci lazar are in the nhl. Poor fourth liners and a bad bottom pairing d man. Another 3 out of 9.

chabot zibanejad (great pick and then I guess pro talent evaluation got that wrong. thought he wasn’t good enough) great picks.
White remains to be seen.

so. Have we been great inside the first round?
That’s the question.
Not “oh but the other team did bad too”. Sure. You’re right. No team
Is perfect. But ya the ottawa senators. Haven’t been great inside the first round.


Who’s being inconsistent.

now cowen was a good pick Becuase look at all these lists that said he was good???

 

[Xspyrit]

No dude it’s totally consistent. I’m not saying our list should look like ANYONE elses list. In fact. I would expect and prefer our list look TOTALLY DIFFERENT!

yes. By definition. Noesen (for example) was not the best pick at that spot. That’s how it is. Am I saying “ugh we shouldn’t have taken him what idiots!” No. Scouts can’t always be right.

the OP said we haven’t drafted well out of the first round last 10 years. That’s it.
So.
Cowen rundblad (trade) zibanejad puempel Noesen Ceci lazar Chabot White.
I won’t count past that because they’re simply not done developing yet. Neither is chabot or white but whatever.

I mean that’s 3 out of 9 (cowen rundblad puempel) that are flat out out of the nhl because they simply cannot play. I don’t care if consensus lists had them ranked around where we picked them lol. They can’t play. They were poor picks. Period.

Noesen ceci lazar are in the nhl. Poor fourth liners and a bad bottom pairing d man. Another 3 out of 9.

chabot zibanejad (great pick and then I guess pro talent evaluation got that wrong. thought he wasn’t good enough) great picks.
White remains to be seen.

so. Have we been great inside the first round?
That’s the question.
Not “oh but the other team did bad too”. Sure. You’re right. No team
Is perfect. But ya the ottawa senators. Haven’t been great inside the first round.


Who’s being inconsistent.

now cowen was a good pick Becuase look at all these lists that said he was good???

I just don't understand some of the stuff you are saying. In one post you could use "concensus" or agree with someone saying we "passed on better players" and in another post, you could say the opposite. Not sure I am following anymore. Like in this post, you don't care about "concensus". I have quoted you a few times recently asking what was that "concensus" you were constantly refering to

I'm not saying Cowen was a good pick, not with the benefit of hindsight. I was at the draft live in Montreal and wanted the Sens to take Paajarvi. Understood why they took Cowen. It "could" have been a good pick. Even if concensus doesn't exist, I don't want my team to "reach" at the top of the draft (hello Brian Lee). Despite no concensus, there is known tiers of talent. The absolute best pick would have been O'Reilly who went 33rd, I doubt there was any team who realistically had him near their top-10.

Look at that 2009 draft, again not that many great picks could have been made. Wish we took Ellis, Leddy or Kreider but "great options" weren't flowing

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I just don't understand some of the stuff you are saying. In one post you could use "concensus" or agree with someone saying we "passed on better players" and in another post, you could say the opposite. Not sure I am following anymore. Like in this post, you don't care about "concensus". I have quoted you a few times recently asking what was that "concensus" you were constantly refering to

I'm not saying Cowen was a good pick, not with the benefit of hindsight. I was at the draft live in Montreal and wanted the Sens to take Paajarvi. Understood why they took Cowen. It "could" have been a good pick. Even if concensus doesn't exist, I don't want my team to "reach" at the top of the draft (hello Brian Lee). Despite no concensus, there is known tiers of talent. The absolute best pick would have been O'Reilly who went 33rd, I doubt there was any team who realistically had him near their top-10.

Look at that 2009 draft, again not that many great picks could have been made. Wish we took Ellis, Leddy or Kreider but "great options" weren't flowing

I’m saying by definition. We passed on better players. But I don’t blame them for not getting them all right?

like your other post. Those two sentiments can be stated. They’re not contradictory.

Did noesen turn out to not be the best pick for that spot? Yes. Do I think their stupid for taking him over other people? No. It happens.

what I would like to see tho is the discussion at the table.

I mean. We know the sens internal list is not the same as the consensus. Nor is any teams. For example we hear now that we Alledgedly had barzal outside the first in 2015.

so let’s say just for my point. Which isn’t a point it’s just a musing. Maybe at the draft table it was Noesen or saad. And we went with Noesen. That’s a bad pick. I would like to see why we picked Noesen over some others.

or cowen. Maybe we did have o’Reilly at like I don’t know 15.

Or lazar. We obviously had him quite high. That’s bad. Doesn’t matter if he was that high on other lists too.

 

[Masked]

Can we talk about Roby instead of revisiting an argument that has already taken place in an appropriate thread?

 

[KnuckChuckinTkachuk]

Quit bickering about previous draft picks and arguing semantics, this is a safe haven to discuss Roby Jarventie and Roby only.

 

[Xspyrit]

I’m saying by definition. We passed on better players. But I don’t blame them for not getting them all right?

like your other post. Those two sentiments can be stated. They’re not contradictory.

Did noesen turn out to not be the best pick for that spot? Yes. Do I think their stupid for taking him over other people? No. It happens.

what I would like to see tho is the discussion at the table.

I mean. We know the sens internal list is not the same as the consensus. Nor is any teams. For example we hear now that we Alledgedly had barzal outside the first in 2015.

so let’s say just for my point. Which isn’t a point it’s just a musing. Maybe at the draft table it was Noesen or saad. And we went with Noesen. That’s a bad pick. I would like to see why we picked Noesen over some others.

or cowen. Maybe we did have o’Reilly at like I don’t know 15.

Or lazar. We obviously had him quite high. That’s bad. Doesn’t matter if he was that high on other lists too.

I understand those first points. We don't need to state the obvious. Hard to put a real number on this but for a big % of picks ever made, there was a better option still left on board.

Cowen. Very unlikely we had O'Reilly that high. Even if we did, we had Cowen higher like probably 100% of other NHL teams, unless he was on DNDL. And Cowen is just another guy out of hundreds that had his career derailed by injuries.

Noesen. We'll never know if it was a bad pick. Simple : injuries. We'll never know what he could have been. I mean you'd need a major crystal ball to know what kind of injuries a player will have and how it will affect his development.

Different situation but was Jarrod Maidens a bad pick? Everyone knew BEFORE the draft about his injury issues. There was a big chance he would never recover but we still took a flyer on him in the 3rd round, and unfortunately he never played again. Really sad story

I think you really diminish the impact of injuries in a sport as physical as hockey, particularly at the NHL level. Unprepared people could literally die on the NHL ice. Hockey is very hard on the body in general, multiply that for the higher levels.

Even after all this back & forth discussions, I still have no idea how you view the "concensus". That's why I said "not consistent" with what you said in other posts. Anyway, doesn't matter, we are starting to repeat ourselves anyway

Quit bickering about previous draft picks and arguing semantics, this is a safe haven to discuss Roby Jarventie and Roby only.

We're not bickering, we're trying to find a concensus

But agreed it should be in a general draft related thread. Don't have the possiblity to move the discussion though.

 

[JungleBeat]

The blog boy that you all hate became an amateur scout for the Canes.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The blog boy that you all hate became an amateur scout for the Canes.

Who?

 

[FormentonTheFuture]

The blog boy that you all hate became an amateur scout for the Canes.

You realize that would be a good thing if you didn't like the guy right?

But good for him for sure.

 

[BondraTime]

The blog boy that you all hate became an amateur scout for the Canes.

Well deserved, definitely don't agree with most of his evaluations, but he certainly puts the viewing and work out there to be viewed.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

The blog boy that you all hate became an amateur scout for the Canes.

I think he'll be a good add to the scouting team. He defnitely knows Finnish prospects from fairly early on. 1 blog boy down about 17 more to go. He turned what he liked into an NHL job so that's a pretty good outcome.

 

[JungleBeat]

You realize that would be a good thing if you didn't like the guy right?

But good for him for sure.

Well deserved, definitely don't agree with most of his evaluations, but he certainly puts the viewing and work out there to be viewed.

I don’t like or hate him, I don’t really care either way. You don’t have to be a professional scout to have an opinion though.

 

[benjiv1]

Who?

Jokke.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Jokke.

Got it thanks!

 

[BondraTime]

I don’t like or hate him, I don’t really care either way. You don’t have to be a professional scout to have an opinion though.

I'm indifferent, have disagreed with a lot, and agreed on others. He turned his love for hockey and scouting into a 70k a year gig, anyone saying they wish they couldn't do the same is kidding themselves

 

[JungleBeat]

I'm indifferent, have disagreed with a lot, and agreed on others. He turned his love for hockey and scouting into a 70k a year gig, anyone saying they wish they couldn't do the same is kidding themselves

Yeah man. Just filter out the stuff you like and don’t like, I agree with nobody 100%

 

[Alf Silfversson]

I'm indifferent, have disagreed with a lot, and agreed on others. He turned his love for hockey and scouting into a 70k a year gig, anyone saying they wish they couldn't do the same is kidding themselves

Agreed. Except I wouldn't switch places with him.

Notwithstanding the pay cut I'd take to 70K I'm not sure I would want to HAVE to watch hockey 8 hours a day. It's an escape for me and I don't think I'd give that up for 70K a year. The fact that good performance could lead to taking steps up the front office ladder of an NHL team would definitely be enticing though.

The guy worked hard on something and now he has his foot in the door with an NHL team. Good for him and we'll see where he goes from here.

 

[JaredCowen4Norris]

The blog boy that you all hate became an amateur scout for the Canes.

But in all seriousness, good for Jokke. Going to miss his Euro prospect content!

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

No dude it’s totally consistent. I’m not saying our list should look like ANYONE elses list. In fact. I would expect and prefer our list look TOTALLY DIFFERENT!

yes. By definition. Noesen (for example) was not the best pick at that spot. That’s how it is. Am I saying “ugh we shouldn’t have taken him what idiots!” No. Scouts can’t always be right.

the OP said we haven’t drafted well out of the first round last 10 years. That’s it.
So.
Cowen rundblad (trade) zibanejad puempel Noesen Ceci lazar Chabot White.
I won’t count past that because they’re simply not done developing yet. Neither is chabot or white but whatever.

I mean that’s 3 out of 9 (cowen rundblad puempel) that are flat out out of the nhl because they simply cannot play. I don’t care if consensus lists had them ranked around where we picked them lol. They can’t play. They were poor picks. Period.

Noesen ceci lazar are in the nhl. Poor fourth liners and a bad bottom pairing d man. Another 3 out of 9.

chabot zibanejad (great pick and then I guess pro talent evaluation got that wrong. thought he wasn’t good enough) great picks.
White remains to be seen.

so. Have we been great inside the first round?
That’s the question.
Not “oh but the other team did bad too”. Sure. You’re right. No team
Is perfect. But ya the ottawa senators. Haven’t been great inside the first round.


Who’s being inconsistent.

now cowen was a good pick Becuase look at all these lists that said he was good???

Not to mention Chabot was picked 15 in one of the deepest drafts ever and Zibanejad was a #6 pick. Those were obvious picks rather than the result of some elite scouting

The Senators are a good scouting team but pretty overrated tbh

 

[Bileur]

Not to mention Chabot was picked 15 in one of the deepest drafts ever and Zibanejad was a #6 pick. Those were obvious picks rather than the result of some elite scouting

The Senators are a good scouting team but pretty overrated tbh

Not to nitpick but Chabot was picked 18th and was the 5th defenseman off the board.

Zibanejad was picked high but he was a very raw, late riser with good tools. He wasn’t even projected to go in the first round at the start of his D-1.

I don’t think either of them were obvious picks at the time.