GDT: #33 ⋅ ANA @ VGK ⋅ 7:00 PM PST

[Terry Yake]

i just hate vegas so much

ducks downward spiral began once they entered the league

 

[CrazyDuck4u]

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Sure the team could use more talent. But I’m convinced the bigger issues go beyond the actual talent and are chemistry and management related. Piss poor management leads to lack of chemistry. Square pegs, round holes, and a coach who only seems to love 4th liners will continue to produce the results we see too often.

The coach continues to not know why the results are too often the same and the GM is too stubborn to admit he made a mistake. This is a dog chasing his tail scenario. Something has to change before we can get out of neutral and start going forward.

 

[HanSolo]

ducks downward spiral began once they entered the league

Meh. Carlyle was hired before that and Murray did f*** all to position this team to keep competing after Getz started aging out. 17-18 was when the Ducks had that catastrophic first round exit and you could see it coming before the playoffs even started, but the team was mismanaging assets before that.

 

[HanSolo]

Sure the team could use more talent. But I’m convinced the bigger issues go beyond the actual talent and are chemistry and management related. Piss poor management leads to lack of chemistry. Square pegs, round holes, and a coach who only seems to love 4th liners will continue to produce the results we see too often.

The coach continues to not know why the results are too often the same and the GM is too stubborn to admit he made a mistake. This is a dog chasing his tail scenario. Something has to change before we can get out of neutral and start going forward.

It drives me insane that our highest potential young forward continues to be staple gunned to Killorn who he has next to no chemistry with. I know I keep speculating about Leo's frustration but it's not like it's wild speculation and I know I've seen Leo throw his head back a number of times watching Killorn fumble some very basic passes from him.

That doesn't encompass all the problems you brought up but it's one of them that frustrates me to no end.

 

[Terry Yake]

Meh. Carlyle was hired before that and Murray did f*** all to position this team to keep competing after Getz started aging out. 17-18 was when the Ducks had that catastrophic first round exit and you could see it coming before the playoffs even started, but the team was mismanaging assets before that.

perry's goal scoring falling off a cliff in 16-17 was the first crack in the wall. but that team still had getzlaf playing at a high level, the kesler/cogs/silfverberg shut down line, a competent blueline, and two solid netminders

17-18 was when things really started to fall off with kesler's injury, but they still managed to make the playoffs because of strong offensive seasons from getzlaf, rakell with his best season, kase, and henrique + gibson still elite in net

18-19 is when the offense completely bottomed out. i think the only reason they even managed to win 35 games is because the blueline was still decent and gibson was still winning games on his own

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

It drives me insane that our highest potential young forward continues to be staple gunned to Killorn who he has next to no chemistry with. I know I keep speculating about Leo's frustration but it's not like it's wild speculation and I know I've seen Leo throw his head back a number of times watching Killorn fumble some very basic passes from him.

That doesn't encompass all the problems you brought up but it's one of them that frustrates me to no end.

In some ways the chemistry is a big problem between the coach and the players as well. How can you coach a player who you obviously don’t relate to as to what they think and how it affects their strengths and weaknesses on the ice?

If a coach just comes in and barks at everybody because he’s the boss and he knows better than you, how does that ever get the best out of people?

Cronin may not have technically lost the room, but I doubt anybody is happy with how things are going and it affects their play whether it’s obvious to them or not.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

And at least some of the kids are showing improvement. Cutter, Lacombe and Zell played well. I'd even say they were three of our best players overall.

You left out Helleson in the group that played well.

Our youth D has taken strides, both last year and this year. LaCombe is the head of the class, but I think we might be wearing him down at the same time. He lead the team with 25:23 TOI on the 22nd and lead the defense tonight (23rd) with 20:27 TOI. Gudas and Trouba had the fewest minutes on D with 16:23 and 16:47 TOI in tonight's loss to Vegas, respectively.

It's our youth forwards that aren't taking noticeable steps forwards.

Carlsson he lost his forechecking winger that hits in McGinn very early in the first period. Terry picked up a lot of slack as he had the most minutes on the team with 21:14 TOI. I totally forgot that McGinn got injured in this game. On the 22nd (afternoon before), Terry logged 20:37 TOI. Fatigue probably set in for Terry.

 

[HanSolo]

You left out Helleson in the group that played well.

Our youth D has taken strides, both last year and this year. LaCombe is the head of the class, but I think we might be wearing him down at the same time. He lead the team with 25:23 TOI on the 22nd and lead the defense tonight (23rd) with 20:27 TOI. Gudas and Trouba had the fewest minutes on D with 16:23 and 16:47 TOI in tonight's loss to Vegas, respectively.

It's our youth forwards that aren't taking noticeable steps forwards.

Carlsson he lost his forechecking winger that hits in McGinn very early in the first period. Terry picked up a lot of slack as he had the most minutes on the team with 21:14 TOI. I totally forgot that McGinn got injured in this game. On the 22nd (afternoon before), Terry logged 20:37 TOI. Fatigue probably set in for Terry.

For whatever reason I thought Helleson was already like 25. Fair to point him out. He was good.

 

[Hey234]

Helleson, LaCombe, and Gauthier are really carrying the young players right now. Gauthier just keeps playing better each game and seems primed to break out. If Helleson keeps play this well, it will make me lean even more towards trading Dumoulin at the deadline.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Meh. Carlyle was hired before that and Murray did f*** all to position this team to keep competing after Getz started aging out. 17-18 was when the Ducks had that catastrophic first round exit and you could see it coming before the playoffs even started, but the team was mismanaging assets before that.

I think GM Murray got hit with massive bad luck injuries. No one would know that both Kesler and Eaves would be out with long term injury and medical problems - except Kesler kept playing on with half a hip for two seasons (2017-18, and 2018-19). We gave an extension to Eaves after he helped us get to the WCF and had great chemistry with Getz! We really don't know what affected Eaves medically, but it was a medical problem outside of hockey.

Murray did try to prepare to move on from the Twins when he started drafting mostly forwards between 2016-18 drafts. What he didn't expect was to lose Kelser and Eaves right after getting to the WCF. And then lost Perry the following season (2018-19). Those three MIA forced to rush the kids earlier to the NHL b/c we weren't expecting to lose Kelser, Eaves, and Perry that early in Murray's plan.

We got more bad luck when Comtois lead the team in scoring during COVID season, got paid, and then stopped putting in work. That's some terrible luck b/c Z and Drysdale burst onto the scene the following season. We could have used COVID Comtois with the 2021-22 team!

Still, Murray compiled a team that was on the cusp of a playoff in 2021-22. Murray resigned in early November. They were 3rd in the Pacific at All-Star break in February when Verbeek was hired. Z was on his way to 61 points and 23 goals in his official rookie season. Drysdale notched 32 points in his official rookie seaosn and played 81 games without looking too overwhelmed. Mac was dominating the juniors, the gold at WJC, and MVP at the WJC. G Dostal was already being developed in the AHL. G Stolarz was being rehabilitated in the AHL under goalie coach Suds. Prospect d-men LaCombe, Thrun, Moore, and Zell were already in our system before Verbeek; the org could take their time developing them with Fowler, Lindholm, and Manson being that high threshold.

It's 20/20 hindsight, but I trust Murray in acquiring better NHL talent than Verbeek. And Murray understood that Anaheim had to trade for said talents to come over. I understood Murray's plan for the rebuild and was surprised with the 2021-22 season. With Verbeek, I understand he wants to collect a lot of darts and use the NHL as his developmental ground. Yet, his collection of high-end talent doesn't match his on-ice philosophy of play. Right now, it looks like our youths are sheltering the vets, when it should be the other way around.

 

[CrazyDuck4u]

I must admit. They have cleaned up the defensive system a bit. The shots on goal against has gone down.. Now it's about the scoring.. and fixing the awful pp

 

[Kalv]

I must admit. They have cleaned up the defensive system a bit. The shots on goal against has gone down.. Now it's about the scoring.. and fixing the awful pp

Using that random-ish 11th november cutoff (ignoring games prior) we're actually 13th in Shots, ahead of a lot of teams. 5th worst SA, but we'd be ahead of Maple Leafs for example.

Stats back up the eye test, we do have cleaned up a bit. Many shots are low danger, but there are high danger too. I must admit, we have taken strides. I do believe there is a lot to improve still, like how we do in offensive zone.

 

[Leonardo87]

I mean we shouldn't entirely give the kids a total pass. But they get more slack cause they have more time to improve. Someone like Terry pretty much is what he is at this point. Could have more points on a better team, but there's no way around it. That was an awful turnover that more or less killed any hope to even it up and send the game to OT.

Leo had an awful second and third period. I'm a fanboy of his and shelled out a lot of money for his jersey. But I'm not gonna pretend he didn't have a rough two periods. He almost gave the VGK a goal trying to pass the puck across his own crease from the corner. That's a bad play and a poor decision under any circumstance. That said, it seems he's just been frustrated and he still has plenty of time to turn it around and the talent is obviously there. He just needs help right now getting his head in the right place and it doesn't seem he's getting it.

Mac had our only goal but he had more than a handful of plays that just looked like he is not thinking at all. With him I think the concern is stronger because it's not that he's forcing plays out of frustration. It's that he's making very intentional and stupid plays with the puck or even defensively. A lack of hockey IQ is a very real concern with a big enough sample.

The players get some of the blame, that missed goal by Leo was brutal, thought he scored. However, I put most of it on the coaching and system. Zegras is a prime example of that. You just don’t go from having two 60 point seasons to this unless there is some outside force changing things. Cronin preaches defense and getting on pucks, yet they still give up the most SOG, nothing has changed, getting good goaltending to keep them in games but even they are starting to get worn out.

The dump and chase does not fit this team’s skilled players. I get it if the 4th line is doing that, but not your Top 6.

They are dead last in GF, and 3rd to last on the PP. Have only one player on pace for like just over 60 points (Even that is low), and then the next guy is on pace for like 40 something. Pathetic.

When your PP is this bad, it severely hurts the teams production.

 

[KelVarnsen]

Fowler and his retreat behind the net influence still haunts the team!!!

As for the other comments, this team is just bad and good goaltending has covered up a lot. The fancy stats more than likely meet the eye test from last night; Vegas controlled play, had way more good chances, and our goaltending was the only reason this game was even close. Total microcosm for the season. Great goaltending has covered up so many flaws and if it weren't for the goalies, this team is probably dead last by a mile in the NHL.

 

[HanSolo]

The players get some of the blame, that missed goal by Leo was brutal, thought he scored. However, I put most of it on the coaching and system. Zegras is a prime example of that. You just don’t go from having two 60 point seasons to this unless there is some outside force changing things. Cronin preaches defense and getting on pucks, yet they still give up the most SOG, nothing has changed, getting good goaltending to keep them in games but even they are starting to get worn out.

The dump and chase does not fit this team’s skilled players. I get it if the 4th line is doing that, but not your Top 6.

They are dead last in GF, and 3rd to last on the PP. Have only one player on pace for like just over 60 points (Even that is low), and then the next guy is on pace for like 40 something. Pathetic.

When your PP is this bad, it severely hurts the teams production.

You're not entirely wrong or right, at least imo. I blame Cronin and the majority of the coaching staff (goalie coaches exempt) for a lot of the problems you mentioned. And I think the organization's player development personnel have, as a whole, not proven themselves.

But I don't even count the missed goal by Leo as lending to a bad night. The kid either got so excited by a gaping opportunity for a goal and overdid the shot at the moment of truth or it bounced on him or both. Either way, it happens. The fact that he missed isn't some sign of trouble. We know he can shoot the puck.

What I noticed was that his first three or so shifts Leo was playing well. He was getting to good areas and got a few pucks on net. Even if they didn't go in, he had a good start to the game against a strong Vegas defense. It felt like his game started spiraling around the half way point of the first when he was carrying the puck on a counter rush and tried to make a short lead pass to Killorn, assuming Killorn would easily handle it but who, instead, in tunnel vision kept looking forward, didn't see a pass was being attempted and kept skating so the pass went behind him and ended up in Vegas' possession. After that I noticed that as long as his line was on the rush, he was going to try to carry it to the net himself and he had at least four attempts where he basically skated into a Vegas defender and lost it, one attempt trying to bull past an umbrella of three Vegas players draping him to no success. After that point he kind of adjusted and tried to be more of a distributor but he either missed passes to his linemates or they connected and his linemates would cough it up, but there was a really egregious moment while Anaheim was chasing the lead and he recovered a loose puck in the right defensive zone corner. There was a Vegas defender maybe ten feet away covering the right wall so instead of try to carry it up and find a seam on the rush, he tried to go crosscrease to throw it to one of our blueliners while a Vegas forechecker was still in the area. Leo ended it up passing it basically right on that Vegas players tape giving them a high danger chance for free that Dostal luckily stopped.

I'm not concerned with Leo's IQ the way I am with Mac. We've seen Leo's IQ and vision on display plenty of times and it seems it's more of a timing adjustment to the speed and size of the NHL generally and a need to get physically stronger. That will come in time. And I really get the feeling that while he'd never admit it publicly, I think a lot of Leo's frustration comes from being a playmaker who is stuck playing with a veteran who, more often than not, kills play with his puck fumbles and low footspeed. I've seen Leo visibly frustrated over Killorn's mistakes on more than a few occasions. So yes, there's a problem with the systems, there's a problem with the chemistry and Cronin sticking Leo with Killorn cause muh veteran experience by osmosis, and there's likely a problem with this coaching staff being unable to help Leo overcome his issues with adapting to the speed and size of the NHL game. But on an individual level he just needs to do more to learn from the shifts that don't go well and make do with the situation he's in. If it can't be helped that he's not being put in a position to succeed I'd like to see better individual adjustments from the kid.

I'm loathe to make the comparison because Cutter is a year older and has a lot more experience playing the NA game, but Cutter has been drastically improving his own effectiveness in the past few weeks while playing with a chaotic and inconsistent McTavish. So it's possible even in unideal conditions. I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that a lot of Leo's problems right now come down to frustration and things could improve with better linemates, a better system, and better coaches/mentors. But Leo could be doing more to cut down on his own individual mistakes and I don't think you can blame everything holding him back on the coaches. Some of it has to come from him and I really hope it does soon. I want him to succeed. We all do.

 

[Hey234]

Fowler and his retreat behind the net influence still haunts the team!!!

As for the other comments, this team is just bad and good goaltending has covered up a lot. The fancy stats more than likely meet the eye test from last night; Vegas controlled play, had way more good chances, and our goaltending was the only reason this game was even close. Total microcosm for the season. Great goaltending has covered up so many flaws and if it weren't for the goalies, this team is probably dead last by a mile in the NHL.

I think this point has pushed some to believe the Ducks are incapable of anything and deserve to be in last place. There are definitely teams worse than the Ducks who struggle more with the same issues. At the same time, good teams ride their goalies somethimes. They absolutely win games they played horribly in.

I think some here, not saying you, judge the wins and losses too harshly. "Could or should have" type thinking doesn't change the fact that the Ducks won those games. There were clear stretches where the Ducks carried the play. They just are not consistent and can't score. That will change over time.

 

[Mr Rogers]

I thought they played pretty well all things considered. The misses from Leo and Leason were just backbreakers. They weren’t coming back after missing like that twice.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Fowler and his retreat behind the net influence still haunts the team!!!

As for the other comments, this team is just bad and good goaltending has covered up a lot. The fancy stats more than likely meet the eye test from last night; Vegas controlled play, had way more good chances, and our goaltending was the only reason this game was even close. Total microcosm for the season. Great goaltending has covered up so many flaws and if it weren't for the goalies, this team is probably dead last by a mile in the NHL.

Here's the chart by Natural Stat Trick for the Vegas game at 5v5 that supports our goalies do cover up a lot of our flaws.

 

[Firequacker]

Hmm. Don't like moral victories much, but grading on the curve of "back to back in Vegas" I didn't think they looked too bad. Especially after losing a forward in the first two minutes and the rested goalie in the first period. I mean... we were all expecting a touchdown and like 60 shots against, right? Instead despite all the flaws it was a winnable game. And they kept at it, that's worth something for a team that started the season looking dead in the face of any adversity.

But... yeah. The power play. Over the last five games the PP has literally given up more goals than it's scored (and the one it scored was by a guy who's only even there if something goes horribly wrong.) I'd even settle for a merely bad power play rather than a net negative one at this point, it's no wonder it kills the momentum.
You can say Leo or Leason could've/should've tied it and that's absolutely true too, but the fact that they were playing from behind to begin with lies squarely on the fact that this team's man 'advantage' isn't.

 

[Bender66]

Watching the Utah and VGK PP back to back nights is like watching a completely different sport. . Those ducks "powerplays" made me throw up in my mouth a little.

Paralysis by analysis. What i see is they've practiced 1 or 2 set plays they want to execute on PP with TT as passer (basically the quick one timer from Terry into bumper, or high cross seam for one timer on far side slot). And when the opposing coaches/PK players see it and counter it, the Ducks PP players are get brain lock and just stand there going "this is what we practiced, so lets just keep trying it until it works".

THAT to me is a coaching problem, not a player problem. These are players who've been player hockey at high level their entire lives. To get that kind of brain lock instead of letting their natural hockey instincts take over and improvise a little bit when the situation isn't 100% perfect match to what they've practiced tells me they have been grounded down into a fine powder by coaching staff to the point where they all have Fowler disease. They are so afraid of making mistakes and going against the grain of what the coaches expect of them that they are afraid of just playing hockey. That's basically like my entire gripe with Fowler his entire career with ducks post "shane doan trying to make him into a vegetable" hit.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Watching the Utah and VGK PP back to back nights is like watching a completely different sport. . Those ducks "powerplays" made me throw up in my mouth a little.

Paralysis by analysis. What i see is they've practiced 1 or 2 set plays they want to execute on PP with TT as passer (basically the quick one timer from Terry into bumper, or high cross seam for one timer on far side slot). And when the opposing coaches/PK players see it and counter it, the Ducks PP players are get brain lock and just stand there going "this is what we practiced, so lets just keep trying it until it works".

THAT to me is a coaching problem, not a player problem. These are players who've been player hockey at high level their entire lives. To get that kind of brain lock instead of letting their natural hockey instincts take over and improvise a little bit when the situation isn't 100% perfect match to what they've practiced tells me they have been grounded down into a fine powder by coaching staff to the point where they all have Fowler disease. They are so afraid of making mistakes and going against the grain of what the coaches expect of them that they are afraid of just playing hockey. That's basically like my entire gripe with Fowler his entire career with ducks post "shane doan trying to make him into a vegetable" hit.

Talking about going against the grain, Eakins actually went against the grain with Verbeek. I recall Verbeek wanted Regenda to stay up with the NHL club and Eakins saying he shouldn't as well as we shouldn't rely on Regenda to be our savior as a rookie still learning the ropes. Eakins won the battle, but I think that made him lose the war b/c he wasn't a "yes man" like Cronin is. Eakins wasn't given a review at all at the end of the season. Verbeek cut bait as soon as the season ended.