Around the League

[RedHawkDown]

What a way off view. McDavid wouldn't have the training and equipment he has now which is a major reason for his speed. He would have the same crappy skates and wooden sticks and would be eating pizza and drinking coke in he was in the 80s. He would also have to avoid all the actual head hunting goons of the day, who far supersede anything even the dirtiest players of today have on offer.

Also, virtually none of the players back then would be beer league only players. If you seen even some of the lowest skill goons in practice and non NHL game situations, their skills far exceed even the best beer league player. Even players we say suck, would skate circles at half energy and speed levels of any top end beer leaguer. Seen vids of low end grinders/goons playing beer league and they are coasting completely and still dominating.

He has identical access to training and equipment as his peers do today, and he has the 3rd best PPG of all time, in a much lower scoring era than Gretzky and Lemieux. Saying his speed is because of equipment is laughable. He isn't just fast, he's significantly faster than everyone else, and is able to control the puck at top speed like he's standing still. This is a skill that has nothing to do with equipment.

You people keep acting like Scott Stevens and Darian Hatcher were standing around using giant nets catching Jagr and the like. Jagr scored 149 points in the mid 90s while all these so-called scary shutdown defensemen were playing. It's not like guys couldn't put points up then. And McDavid has all-time talent and ability that nobody outside of Gretzky/Lemieux and maybe Jagr had.

So classic. People just glaze historic players and shit on current players, the standard "back in my day" argument. In 15 years you'll start hearing that whatever phenom of that day would have been wrecked by Moritz Seider if he played in 2025.

 

[sepster]

McDavid is a better player than all of the players from the early 90s. He is maybe a half-step below a Mario/Gretzky/Jagr talent. Full stop.

He is on his 5th straight season about to hit 100 pts, and would have been 9th straight had it not been for injury; he was pacing for 124 points that year. Sergei Fedorov and Pavel Bure are not even remotely close to this player. I'm not sure what you are on about.

McDavid is better than all players in the 90s. Except for the three top 90s players listed. What?

Also, listing his current achievements does not in any way support your argument when taking into account the very fact that rule changes and officiating standards were FUNDAMENTALLY changed to allow players to play today in ways they were not allowed to play prior to 2005. That is the very basis of my argument. Citing the current point production of today's players can actually support my argument, not discredit it, by showing how much easier it is to produce when not being hooked, held, and elbowed into oblivion.

 

[Oddbob]

Greatness vs Best is a key distinction in this. The game is simply better than it has ever been so the overall floor of talent/ability is higher.

But taking it a step further McDavid just does things no one else has. For instance, only 6 players have put up 150 points. He is the only one to do it in the modern era. More than that, he has Datsyuk's offensive game on steroids. His ability to single handedly walk through a team is unprecedented and I'm saying that as someone who has Pavel Datsyuk as arguably my all time fave. On top of the highlights and raw natural talent he has the 3rd best career points/game ever while playing in a lower scoring era compared to Gretzky/Lemiuex's most prolific years.

As far as impact and intangibles go, he has an underrated two way game. The guy has a sneaky chippyness and grit to his game and plays as hard as anyone.
He has an absolute fire to compete and win. He has the 4th best playoff and 22nd highest scoring playoffs of all time. He also has the 3rd best playoffs points/game of all time.

In the last 12 months he led his team to within 1 goal of winning the Stanley cup, scored 3 goals in 4 games at his first best on best tournament, including the game winner in overtime last night.

IMO he is already the best player to ever do it and certainly can get himself into the convo for greatest, though that's still a longer way off. Embrace the hype, the guy is truly special and an unprecedented talent.

McDavid most definitely doesn't have an underrated 2 way game. He floats with the best of them defensively.

 

[RedHawkDown]

McDavid is better than all players in the 90s. Except for the three top 90s players listed. What?

Also, listing his current achievements does not in any way support your argument when taking into account the very fact that rule changes and officiating standards were FUNDAMENTALLY changed to allow players to play today in ways they were not allowed to play prior to 2005. That is the very basis of my argument. Citing the current point production of today's players can actually support my argument, not discredit it, by showing how much easier it is to produce when not being hooked, held, and elbowed into oblivion.

It's not the point production of today's players. It's the point production of one player. Connor McDavid.

I'd say he's better than Jagr. Mario and Gretzky, right behind. These 4 are likely the 4 best forwards of all time, so yes, he's better than all the players in the 90s except for arguably the 2 best players in NHL history? He's way, way, way, way better than Fedorov and Bure, like it's not even remotely close. What about that is hard to understand?

 

[RedHawkDown]

McDavid is better than all players in the 90s. Except for the three top 90s players listed. What?

Also, listing his current achievements does not in any way support your argument when taking into account the very fact that rule changes and officiating standards were FUNDAMENTALLY changed to allow players to play today in ways they were not allowed to play prior to 2005. That is the very basis of my argument. Citing the current point production of today's players can actually support my argument, not discredit it, by showing how much easier it is to produce when not being hooked, held, and elbowed into oblivion.

I will also say that it really doesn't sound like you watch McDavid play at all. People are constantly trying to hook, hold and elbow him, but they can't, because he is simply too fast and deceptive and cannot be caught. You think players have an issue taking a 2 minute penalty to stop McDavid from scoring at will?

If you watched him play with any regularity, you would see that rule changes have essentially nothign to do with his dominance. Most plays, he is literally untouched and dances around the opposition. Whether or not holding is illegal or legal would make zero difference because nobody can catch him. And the guys in the 90s were much slower, so in fact I'd say he'd do even better then.

Now, a guy like Caufield, or DeBrincat? Yes, big difference. These guys would likely have been rendered ineffective in the 90s because their skating isn't that great and they could not withstand the physicality of that era. But Connor McDavid is not these players. You really are dramatically underrating this talent.

 

[SirloinUB]

McDavid most definitely doesn't have an underrated 2 way game. He floats with the best of them defensively.

Outdated opinion.

 

[Oddbob]

He has identical access to training and equipment as his peers do today, and he has the 3rd best PPG of all time, in a much lower scoring era than Gretzky and Lemieux. Saying his speed is because of equipment is laughable. He isn't just fast, he's significantly faster than everyone else, and is able to control the puck at top speed like he's standing still. This is a skill that has nothing to do with equipment.

You people keep acting like Scott Stevens and Darian Hatcher were standing around using giant nets catching Jagr and the like. Jagr scored 149 points in the mid 90s while all these so-called scary shutdown defensemen were playing. It's not like guys couldn't put points up then. And McDavid has all-time talent and ability that nobody outside of Gretzky/Lemieux and maybe Jagr had.

So classic. People just glaze historic players and shit on current players, the standard "back in my day" argument. In 15 years you'll start hearing that whatever phenom of that day would have been wrecked by Moritz Seider if he played in 2025.

Training is massive in being fast and keeping pace. If he was eating poorer which is GUARANTEED as players didn't know much or care much at all about diet back then. Speed is a major factor in McDavid's game, moreso than maybe anyone ever, so staying in shape would have been important and players didn't have the diet and knowledge of today. Mario smoked fricken cigarettes at intermission back then, and Wayne was eating hot dogs and drinking coke at intermission. Imagine them with todays training and equipment. Connor is better at speed with the puck then anyone ever, but Wayne thought the game way smarter than Connor and didn't need blinding speed to tear other teams apart.

To be fair I was talking more about the goons from the early 80s and 90s which were just that much dirtier. Every team had 2-3 in every game and many of them didn't do much hockey playing, they were basically looking to run people over. Stevens and even Hatcher weren't constantly being dirty all game as most of Stevens hits were considered clean back then. The goons I am talking about are the ones who scored 1-5 goals a season even back then in the high scoring era.

You are way wrong about the people running down today over the past as people, especially here on HF always do the thing of just placing current day players with the same everything of today back then, but don't do so in reverse of putting yesterdays players into today. Imagine how fast Coffey would be with todays skates and training. Imagine Al MacInnis letting rip with todays sticks. If you do one way you have to go the other way too. which is never done by people selling yesterdays players as beer leaguers which has been said of Wayne Gretzky on this site a lot. Imagine Wayne victimizing D with no two line pass like today.

 

[sepster]

McDavid is twice as fast as anybody from the 90s, including Bure.

That is not true. At all. Not one bit. Actual statistics disprove that. McDavid's fastest recorded time is 2/10ths of a second faster than Fedorov's fastest recorded time.

Again, the difference is that McDavid can actually use that speed in today's game without the hooking and holding.

 

[Oddbob]

Outdated opinion.

It really isn't. He plays the same now as 2-3 seasons ago. Yours is a fake narrative that HF produces about top end guys being better than they are at defence, just because they are really good players. It was the same the season Ovy won the Cup, they magically said he was better at defence just cause he won. When I watch Ovy play then and now, he is exactly the same level of defence as he ever was.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Training is massive in being fast and keeping pace. If he was eating poorer which is GUARANTEED as players didn't know much or care much at all about diet back then. Speed is a major factor in McDavid's game, moreso than maybe anyone ever, so staying in shape would have been important and players didn't have the diet and knowledge of today. Mario smoked fricken cigarettes at intermission back then, and Wayne was eating hot dogs and drinking coke at intermission. Imagine them with todays training and equipment. Connor is better at speed with the puck then anyone ever, but Wayne thought the game way smarter than Connor and didn't need blinding speed to tear other teams apart.

To be fair I was talking more about the goons from the early 80s and 90s which were just that much dirtier. Every team had 2-3 in every game and many of them didn't do much hockey playing, they were basically looking to run people over. Stevens and even Hatcher weren't constantly being dirty all game as most of Stevens hits were considered clean back then. The goons I am talking about are the ones who scored 1-5 goals a season even back then in the high scoring era.

You are way wrong about the people running down today over the past as people, especially here on HF always do the thing of just placing current day players with the same everything of today back then, but don't do so in reverse of putting yesterdays players into today. Imagine how fast Coffey would be with todays skates and training. Imagine Al MacInnis letting rip with todays sticks. If you do one way you have to go the other way too. which is never done by people selling yesterdays players as beer leaguers which has been said of Wayne Gretzky on this site a lot. Imagine Wayne victimizing D with no two line pass like today.

I am not saying the players of previous eras would be bad now. I never made that argument. I agree that Coffey would be great today - he would be Makar/Hughes+. I agree Gretzky would be dominant today.

I am simply saying that Connor is an all-time talent just like those guys you are describing, and would have been just as good in those eras. For soem reaosn, you seem to think that MacInnis/Gretzky/Coffey would destroy today's NHL, but that 1990s McDavid would suddenly be pedestrian because his skating talent would be nullified by *checks notes * hot dogs?

Honestly just kind of ridiculous. Phil Kessel ate hot dogs his entire career and was still one of the fastest players in the NHL. These things matter to some degree, but they do not matter for the absolute best talents that the world has ever seen, which McDavid is. I agree that Gretzky/Lemieux/etc are those talents. I am saying that McDavid is also one of those talents, and it's pure nostalgia to pretend like he isn't.

That is not true. At all. Not one bit. Actual statistics disprove that. McDavid's fastest recorded time is 2/10ths of a second faster than Fedorov's fastest recorded time.

Again, the difference is that McDavid can actually use that speed in today's game without the hooking and holding.

No, it isn't. His actual speed might not be faster, but his ability to play with the puck at that speed is MUCH better than anyone in history, by a massive, massive margin. Fact. Obviously the raw speed isn't the only feature of his game, otherwise Michael Grabner would have been the next Pavel Bure and Dylan Larkin would be just as good as McDavid. Didn't think I had to spell that out.

No, the difference is not about hooking and holding. Again, looks like you don't watch him play at all. Guys are constantly trying to hook and hold him and simply cannot make a connection because he is moving too quickly with the puck.

Just like Gretzky's once-in-a-lifetime ability to think the game 5 steps ahead of everyone else would transcend eras, McDavid's once-in-a-lifetime ability to process the game with the puck at breakneck speeds would also transcend eras.

 

[Frk It]

Oh, and BTW, you mean McDavid doesn't get laid out in the exact way Charlie McAvoy laid him out the other day? Do you watch McDavid play?

The same McAvoy he left in the dust here on his way to a goal?



(Who probably skates better than most defenseman in the 90’s)

 

[sepster]

I will also say that it really doesn't sound like you watch McDavid play at all. People are constantly trying to hook, hold and elbow him, but they can't, because he is simply too fast and deceptive and cannot be caught. You think players have an issue taking a 2 minute penalty to stop McDavid from scoring at will?

If you watched him play with any regularity, you would see that rule changes have essentially nothign to do with his dominance. Most plays, he is literally untouched and dances around the opposition. Whether or not holding is illegal or legal would make zero difference because nobody can catch him. And the guys in the 90s were much slower, so in fact I'd say he'd do even better then.

Now, a guy like Caufield, or DeBrincat? Yes, big difference. These guys would likely have been rendered ineffective in the 90s because their skating isn't that great and they could not withstand the physicality of that era. But Connor McDavid is not these players. You really are dramatically underrating this talent.

I have not stated that McDavid is not one of, if not the best player of this era. He is. Clearly. The argument is how he compares to other eras.

To say that hooking, holding, interference, or outright headhunting in today's game is anywhere close to what it was pre-2000 is absurd. Against McDavid, or anyone. It's simply not. And I am one that absolutely agrees that the lack of penalties drawn by McDavid, especially in the playoffs, is a huge, and purposeful, screwup by the NHL. But there is no argument whatsoever to say today's game approaches anything of past eras.

 

[RedHawkDown]

I have not stated that McDavid is not one of, if not the best player of this era. He is. Clearly. The argument is how he compares to other eras.

To say that hooking, holding, interference, or outright headhunting in today's game is anywhere close to what it was pre-2000 is absurd. Against McDavid, or anyone. It's simply not. And I am one that absolutely agrees that the lack of penalties drawn by McDavid, especially in the playoffs, is a huge, and purposeful, screwup by the NHL. But there is no argument whatsoever to say today's game approaches anything of past eras.

You are not understanding what I am saying, at all. I am saying he is one of the best players of any era. Not just this era.

I also never said hooking and interference and obstruction are anywhere near what they were pre-2000. That's not the point. You aren't getting it. The point is that the lack of those things is not what is allowing McDavid to thrive. If you ever watched him play, you would see this. Players are not hooking/holding/interfering overall nearly at the level of 1990-2000, but they are absolutely doing their best to stop McDavid with those illegal techniques, becuase he is special. He is not like everybody else in the league. And they cannot stop him, with legal means or otherwise, because people cannot get close enough to him to hook or hold him the vast majority of the time.

I suggest you actually watch like 5-10 games of McDavid. I would agree with you about really any other player in today's era. Draisaitl for example I don't think puts up the same numbers in the 90s. McDavid is very different from these guys.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

McDavid is a better player than all of the players from the early 90s. He is maybe a half-step below a Mario/Gretzky/Jagr talent. Full stop.

He is on his 5th straight season about to hit 100 pts, and would have been 9th straight had it not been for injury; he was pacing for 124 points that year. Sergei Fedorov and Pavel Bure are not even remotely close to this player. I'm not sure what you are on about.

McDavid is the first Mount Rushmore challenger since Lindros in my opinion. Obviously we know injuries took him out but McDavid is in the Mario, Gretzky, Orr, Howe tier in threatening that.

I remember thinking Eichel would be close, I was wrong. McDavid is the most exciting player I think I have watched.

 

[Oddbob]

I am not saying the players of previous eras would be bad now. I never made that argument. I agree that Coffey would be great today - he would be Makar/Hughes+. I agree Gretzky would be dominant today.

I am simply saying that Connor is an all-time talent just like those guys you are describing, and would have been just as good in those eras. For soem reaosn, you seem to think that MacInnis/Gretzky/Coffey would destroy today's NHL, but that 1990s McDavid would suddenly be pedestrian because his skating talent would be nullified by *checks notes * hot dogs?

Honestly just kind of ridiculous. Phil Kessel ate hot dogs his entire career and was still one of the fastest players in the NHL. These things matter to some degree, but they do not matter for the absolute best talents that the world has ever seen, which McDavid is. I agree that Gretzky/Lemieux/etc are those talents. I am saying that McDavid is also one of those talents, and it's pure nostalgia to pretend like he isn't.


No, it isn't. His actual speed might not be faster, but his ability to play with the puck at that speed is MUCH better than anyone in history, by a massive, massive margin. Fact. Obviously the raw speed isn't the only feature of his game, otherwise Michael Grabner would have been the next Pavel Bure and Dylan Larkin would be just as good as McDavid. Didn't think I had to spell that out.

No, the difference is not about hooking and holding. Again, looks like you don't watch him play at all. Guys are constantly trying to hook and hold him and simply cannot make a connection because he is moving too quickly with the puck.

Hold on, hold on, I never said he wouldn't be great. I personally consider McDavid just below, Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr, because he dominates his peers like those 3 before him in a way that no other has since those first 3. My dislike is how people on HF, (not necessarily you) always put the stars of today with everything of today back in that era, but then put Gretz and Mario and company in todays game with everything of yesterday. If you go one way, you have to go the other in reverse.

I already said, Connor is by far the best player at speed with the puck that I have ever seen. Aside from that though, I don't think he is better at passing or general offensive IQ than for example, MacKinnon or Crosby level players as Connor's game is heavily reliant on speed for dominance. That isn't a knock on Connor either.

 

[SirloinUB]

It really isn't. He plays the same now as 2-3 seasons ago. Yours is a fake narrative that HF produces about top end guys being better than they are at defence, just because they are really good players. It was the same the season Ovy won the Cup, they magically said he was better at defence just cause he won. When I watch Ovy play then and now, he is exactly the same level of defence as he ever was.

I watch the oilers as much as the Red Wings. It's not a fake narrative.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Hold on, hold on, I never said he wouldn't be great. I personally consider McDavid just below, Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr, because he dominates his peers like those 3 before him in a way that no other has since those first 3. My dislike is how people on HF, (not necessarily you) always put the stars of today with everything of today back in that era, but then put Gretz and Mario and company in todays game with everything of yesterday. If you go one way, you have to go the other in reverse.

I already said, Connor is by far the best player at speed with the puck that I have ever seen. Aside from that though, I don't think he is better at passing or general offensive IQ than for example, MacKinnon or Crosby level players as Connor's game is heavily reliant on speed for dominance. That isn't a knock on Connor either.

Yeah then we don't really disagree. I think Mario and Gretz would be destroying the league today, too. People in the 80s and 90s were very lucky to have two (maybe 3 if you count Jagr) talents of this level in the league at the same time.

 

[Oddbob]

Yeah then we don't really disagree. I think Mario and Gretz would be destroying the league today, too. People in the 80s and 90s were very lucky to have two (maybe 3 if you count Jagr) talents of this level in the league at the same time.

I think Jagr had a 6 year run that is up with Gretzky and Mario, unfortunately his game became much less after that and then he played way too long as just a good player which makes people forget how good he was. During that run I don't think there was anyone better than Jagr.

I watch the oilers as much as the Red Wings. It's not a fake narrative.


View attachment 980398

I never care about these fancy stat charts. When you watch him play he floats a lot. Making a smart play here and there doesn't make you good at defence. Matthews just finished 3rd in Selke voting last season and he isn't good at defence either. They float which isn't even running them down as not everybody needs to be a stud, but pretending they are something they aren't is just silly. Larkin isn't even a Selke level guy by league view, but he is miles better than both Matthews and McDavid in his own end.

 

[Frk It]

And they cannot stop him, with legal means or otherwise, because people cannot get close enough to him to hook or hold him the vast majority of the time.

This.

 

[SirloinUB]

I think Jagr had a 6 year run that is up with Gretzky and Mario, unfortunately his game became much less after that and then he played way too long as just a good player which makes people forget how good he was. During that run I don't think there was anyone better than Jagr.



I never care about these fancy stat charts. When you watch him play he floats a lot. Making a smart play here and there doesn't make you good at defence. Matthews just finished 3rd in Selke voting last season and he isn't good at defence either. They float which isn't even running them down as not everybody needs to be a stud, but pretending they are something they aren't is just silly. Larkin isn't even a Selke level guy by league view, but he is miles better than both Matthews and McDavid in his own end.

Connor McDavid is not a floater. He is in the 99th percentile for speed bursts over 32 km/h and the 98th percentile for total distance skated. He's among the league leaders (95th percentile) for Average distance/60 skating 1 km more than league average.

He is also at the top of the league for speed bursts. League average speed bursts of 32-35 km/h is 54. Connor has 255 lol.

 

[Hazy Little Thing]

I can’t believe we still have dinosaurs that think McDavid isn’t fantastic, if not elite, defensively. And it’s not a new thing either.

 

[Hazy Little Thing]

Connor McDavid is not a floater. He is in the 99th percentile for speed bursts over 32 km/h and the 98th percentile for total distance skated. He's among the league leaders (95th percentile) for Average distance/60 skating 1 km more than league average.

View attachment 980414


He is also at the top of the league for speed bursts. League average speed bursts of 32-35 km/h is 54. Connor has 255 lol.

View attachment 980415

And it’s not just the speed bursts, it’s the speed at which he can handle the puck at an elite level that Bure, and even Fedorov, couldn’t do at his level.

Some people need to appreciate watching the best player of time in his prime and not wait til after he hangs em up to realize what you were witnessing.

 

[jkutswings]

Some people need to appreciate watching the best player of time in his prime and not wait til after he hangs em up to realize what you were witnessing.

You're assuming that everyone here are fans of the sport at large, simply enjoying talent regardless of tier or team.

I'm a Detroit Red Wings fan. I couldn't care less about Connor McDavid or an Avalanche/Stars matchup on a random Tuesday. (It's also why I didn't watch any of the Four Nations Tournament, but that's a story for another thread.)

If you enjoy watching McDavid, cool. Soak it all in for however you choose to be a fan. But don't declare who or what others should follow. Each person can choose that for themselves.

 

[Hazy Little Thing]

You're assuming that everyone here are fans of the sport at large, simply enjoying talent regardless of tier or team.

I'm a Detroit Red Wings fan. I couldn't care less about Connor McDavid or an Avalanche/Stars matchup on a random Tuesday. (It's also why I didn't watch any of the Four Nations Tournament, but that's a story for another thread.)

If you enjoy watching McDavid, cool. Soak it all in for however you choose to be a fan. But don't declare who or what others should follow. Each person can choose that for themselves.

This is a new one for me, how can you like a team but not the sport the team plays.

 

[Oddbob]

I can’t believe we still have dinosaurs that think McDavid isn’t fantastic, if not elite, defensively. And it’s not a new thing either.

HAHAHAHAHAHA ELITE defensively! WOW!