24/25 Waivers/Rumors/TDL Thread.

[Hazy Little Thing]

Of all time? Based on what? He is great but of all time?

Watching them both play? McDavid would put up 300 points a year if he played in Gretzky’s era with the putrid depth and goaltending. It’s not fair to knock McDavid just because the overall game is better now and some of Wayne’s NHL peers would be relegated to beer league hockey today.

 

[Hazy Little Thing]

Zero Stanley cups doesn't make you the greatest of all time. He has potential but to crown him already is very premature.

This is archaic nonsense. Chris Osgood wasn’t a better goalie than Henrik Lundqvist because he won a cup. Binnington isn’t a better goalie than Hellebuyck because he won a cup.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

This is archaic nonsense. Chris Osgood wasn’t a better goalie than Henrik Lundqvist because he won a cup. Binnington isn’t a better goalie than Hellebuyck because he won a cup.

What makes him the GREATEST of all-time dude? You have to win to be considered the greatest. This actually deserves its own thread because we can talk forever and get nowhere. Crosby is arguably better than McDavid and I don't even like him. And you are also discrediting the building blocks Gretzky made. He was the blueprint to follow. How can you penalize someone for their era?

Anyway back to the original thread. Wings need to make some moves. We need another d man badly.

 

[Hazy Little Thing]

What makes him the GREATEST of all-time dude? You have to win to be considered the greatest. This actually deserves its own thread because we can talk forever and get nowhere. Crosby is arguably better than McDavid and I don't even like him. And you are also discrediting the building blocks Gretzky made. He was the blueprint to follow. How can you penalize someone for their era?

Anyway back to the original thread. Wings need to make some moves. We need another d man badly.

Please read. I said he’s the best of all time, not the greatest. Much more difference in definitions there. Greatest is very subjective.

Like in the NFL, Tom Brady is the most accomplished QB of all time, but very few would consider him the best QB of all time. He was carried by his defense and coaching for the most part.

 

[Snuggs]

As new information presents itself I update my opinions. That's how life should work.
- At one point I absolutely wanted Petersson no ifs ands or buts.
- He signed a mega contract, and struggled at the end of 2023-2024 season and I started feeling skeptical of him
- Then the JT-Petey saga dragged on and on and Petey's struggles continued. This turned my skepticism into disinterest.
- Shit this morning, I saw the pics of him icing his knee at the 4 nations. This makes me wonder if the struggles are more injury related than anything else. Maybe with proper rehab he can fully bounce back. This opens that door again (just a crack though).

Yeah, idk if he's actually injured or not I seen that. I'm not gonna make excuses for the kids bad play but I'm one of those guys from the start that's believed he's needed out of Vancouver. "Something" is off over there, injury, locker-room, coach, management, something. They have this ONE chance to get themselves out of the personal drama they caused within from Miller/Pettersson. It's crazy they're in a playoff race and might trade out two of there three best players.

They have to do whatever it takes to keep Hughes happy and resign him. While I've wanted Wings involved, other teams have better players to offer to keep Vancouver competitive now. We're not the best match in the world without another partner involved.

 

[TCNorthstars]

Please read. I said he’s the best of all time, not the greatest. Much more difference in definitions there. Greatest is very subjective.

Like in the NFL, Tom Brady is the most accomplished QB of all time, but very few would consider him the best QB of all time. He was carried by his defense and coaching for the most part.

Wow, you are really stretching there. Greatest and best are used pretty interchangeably. Since you seem to think best is objective please list what makes McDavid the best of all time.

And since you think best is objective, your Tom Brady thing is a really bad example. Brady has the most Superbowl wins by a lot. The most passes completed by a lot. Most passing yards by a lot. The most passing TD's by a lot. It will be a long time until he is passed in any of those. So he is objectively, the best QB of all time.

 

[sepster]

I think all of those are pretty bad examples to be honest. I'm not sure that Fedorov, one of the best Russian playres of all time, who became a lower-scoring player once he decided to dominate defensively, is a good example of a guy who scored 100+ and then legitimately fell off in ability. That's not really at all what happened with Feds.

Nuge scored 104 points in his 12th NHL season. That's not even remotely comparable to Pettersson doing it at age 23. Nichols, again, scored 100 pts, then exploded with 150 a few years later, and then was still a PPG player for the majority of the rest of his career. Those were just prime years, not like he went from a 100 pt player to a 50-60pt/82g one. That's just not what happened.

You can nitpick his performance against certain teams, but fact is that a player like Pettersson who has the skill he has and has put up the numbers he has almost never just becomes trash for the rest of his career. It hasn't really happened and the examples you give are not examples of it, at all really.

I think if you watched Pettersson during those Vanocuver years, you would have a different perspective. He was absolutely unstoppable, and a defensive beast. The team around him wasn't the best. His linemates were Kuzmenko and Mikheyev.

Fedorov trading offense for defense is a complete fabrication. There are several factors as to why Fedorov never produced offense the way he did during his Hart season, but that is not one of them.

 

[Ricelund]

Any interest in Lindholm or Horvat if Boston or NYI put them on the market?

I'd take Horvat.

 

[sepster]

Watching them both play? McDavid would put up 300 points a year if he played in Gretzky’s era with the putrid depth and goaltending. It’s not fair to knock McDavid just because the overall game is better now and some of Wayne’s NHL peers would be relegated to beer league hockey today.

McDavid is a great player, no doubt, but I've also watched a lot of goals of his where, had he been playing on the same ice as Scott Stevens, Darian Hatcher, Chris Pronger, etc, he would have gotten his head knocked off.

I could make the opposite argument, that if Fedorov, Bure, or Jagr had been playing in today's game, where flying elbows and water-skiers weren't allowed, then they'd still be miles ahead in the goals/points race.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

McDavid is a great player, no doubt, but I've also watched a lot of goals of his where, had he been playing on the same ice as Scott Stevens, Darian Hatcher, Chris Pronger, etc, he would have gotten his head knocked off.

I could make the opposite argument, that if Fedorov, Bure, or Jagr had been playing in today's game, where flying elbows and water-skiers weren't allowed, then they'd still be miles ahead in the goals/points race.

Exactly. Fedorov Jagr and Bure would annihilate these guys today with no fear of getting their heads taken off.

 

[redwingsfannn9191]

Ummmm is there any chance yzerman pulls off what carolina has done with future contracts and defer salary later on??? I'm sure the nhl will try and take that out on the next CBa might as well use it ? all depends on ilitch

Maybe like albert johansson if we think hes a big piece we can say give him 4 yrs 2.5 cap hit and defer 500-750k a year later on?? Not sure how that works

Been seeing ppl talk about Marchand moving on ... i know fans will hate this but we also hated chelios at one time ... what if we gave 3 yrs at say 4.75 and defer 1.25 so he gets some money when hes retired ? He still got 20 goals and hasn't been really injured as far as I can tell

Maybe we can just use debrincat in a deal,maybe 3 way deal if needed for like a cozens ?

Kasper larkin raymond
Marchand cozens ?
Soderblom danielson berggren
Rasmussen copp mazur

Just spitballing , I think at the end of the day Bruins resign him or the fans will lose it but he'd be a good mentor to kasper and mazur without the licking people's faces nonsense lmao

Exactly. Fedorov Jagr and Bure would annihilate these guys today with no fear of getting their heads taken off.

I love those players but McDavid would perform in any era let's be real

Back then you can take a slap shot from far away and the goalie would just kick out his leg and the puck would go in

 

[JediOrderPizza]

We talking Hampus?

 

[jkutswings]

To clarify this little side discussion, I think McDavid absolutely has an argument for being one of the most TALENTED players in NHL history, if not #1 overall. But as others have stated, that's a very different thing than impact on the game (greatness or some similar aspect).

Personally, I like rooting against talented players who have yet to effectively show the other intangibles (killer instinct, grit, leadership, etc.). Any day of the week I'll take a guy who's 8/10 on talent but will run through a wall and drag his teammates with him over a 10/10 who won't.

Well, that plus I'm inherently anti-hype. So the more a player becomes a media darling, the less I'm going to like him.

 

[SirloinUB]

Zero Stanley cups doesn't make you the greatest of all time. He has potential but to crown him already is very premature.

To clarify this little side discussion, I think McDavid absolutely has an argument for being one of the most TALENTED players in NHL history, if not #1 overall. But as others have stated, that's a very different thing than impact on the game (greatness or some similar aspect).

Personally, I like rooting against talented players who have yet to effectively show the other intangibles (killer instinct, grit, leadership, etc.). Any day of the week I'll take a guy who's 8/10 on talent but will run through a wall and drag his teammates with him over a 10/10 who won't.

Well, that plus I'm inherently anti-hype. So the more a player becomes a media darling, the less I'm going to like him.

Greatness vs Best is a key distinction in this. The game is simply better than it has ever been so the overall floor of talent/ability is higher.

But taking it a step further McDavid just does things no one else has. For instance, only 6 players have put up 150 points. He is the only one to do it in the modern era. More than that, he has Datsyuk's offensive game on steroids. His ability to single handedly walk through a team is unprecedented and I'm saying that as someone who has Pavel Datsyuk as arguably my all time fave. On top of the highlights and raw natural talent he has the 3rd best career points/game ever while playing in a lower scoring era compared to Gretzky/Lemiuex's most prolific years.

As far as impact and intangibles go, he has an underrated two way game. The guy has a sneaky chippyness and grit to his game and plays as hard as anyone.
He has an absolute fire to compete and win. He has the 4th best playoff and 22nd highest scoring playoffs of all time. He also has the 3rd best playoffs points/game of all time.

In the last 12 months he led his team to within 1 goal of winning the Stanley cup, scored 3 goals in 4 games at his first best on best tournament, including the game winner in overtime last night.

IMO he is already the best player to ever do it and certainly can get himself into the convo for greatest, though that's still a longer way off. Embrace the hype, the guy is truly special and an unprecedented talent.

 

[SirloinUB]

McDavid is a great player, no doubt, but I've also watched a lot of goals of his where, had he been playing on the same ice as Scott Stevens, Darian Hatcher, Chris Pronger, etc, he would have gotten his head knocked off.

I could make the opposite argument, that if Fedorov, Bure, or Jagr had been playing in today's game, where flying elbows and water-skiers weren't allowed, then they'd still be miles ahead in the goals/points race.

Interesting take. The guy plays heads up hockey and barely gets touched because he is so incredibly aware, shifty and fast. Stevens, Hatcher and Pronger would have no chance at keeping up with McDavid and a hard time ever connecting on him during the flow of a game. I'm sure they'd take their post whistle shots but that's about all they could get.

Connor's generational skating, stickhandling and awareness would stand out in any era.

 

[sepster]

Interesting take. The guy plays heads up hockey and barely gets touched because he is so incredibly aware, shifty and fast. Stevens, Hatcher and Pronger would have no chance at keeping up with McDavid and a hard time ever connecting on him during the flow of a game. I'm sure they'd take their post whistle shots but that's about all they could get.

Connor's generational skating, stickhandling and awareness would stand out in any era.

Yes, I agree. However, I do not think that the gap between McDavid and Bure, for example, is that significant, if there is one at all, and Bure took a lot of abuse throughout his career. It's easier to get tagged by a big hit when you are also trying to fend off the Draper's, Peca's, Ricci's from hooking and holding you all the way through the neutral zone.

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

So, anyway, back to the trade deadline.

 

[Frk It]

McDavid is a great player, no doubt, but I've also watched a lot of goals of his where, had he been playing on the same ice as Scott Stevens, Darian Hatcher, Chris Pronger, etc, he would have gotten his head knocked off.

He is leaving all those guys flat footed grasping at air.

 

[redwingsfannn9191]

Canucks are an absolute mess of a team ... just signed lankinen for 5 yrs 22.5 mill? Lmfao my god

Id say theres a good chance we can get soucy for a 3rd ?? So basically maata for soucy , maybe throw in viro since it's the canucks

Think he has one more year so not a rental

Soucy oleksiak would be my targets, not rentals and shouldn't cost too much

I would be tempted with the nostalgia of getting nyquist if we can get rid of tarasenko. He had 75 pts last yr

Soderblom Rasmussen nyquist 3rd line ???

Obviously wouldnt part with a 2nd or 1st for him

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Greatness vs Best is a key distinction in this. The game is simply better than it has ever been so the overall floor of talent/ability is higher.

But taking it a step further McDavid just does things no one else has. For instance, only 6 players have put up 150 points. He is the only one to do it in the modern era. More than that, he has Datsyuk's offensive game on steroids. His ability to single handedly walk through a team is unprecedented and I'm saying that as someone who has Pavel Datsyuk as arguably my all time fave. On top of the highlights and raw natural talent he has the 3rd best career points/game ever while playing in a lower scoring era compared to Gretzky/Lemiuex's most prolific years.

As far as impact and intangibles go, he has an underrated two way game. The guy has a sneaky chippyness and grit to his game and plays as hard as anyone.
He has an absolute fire to compete and win. He has the 4th best playoff and 22nd highest scoring playoffs of all time. He also has the 3rd best playoffs points/game of all time.

In the last 12 months he led his team to within 1 goal of winning the Stanley cup, scored 3 goals in 4 games at his first best on best tournament, including the game winner in overtime last night.

IMO he is already the best player to ever do it and certainly can get himself into the convo for greatest, though that's still a longer way off. Embrace the hype, the guy is truly special and an unprecedented talent.

McDavid is not the greatest or best yet.

So, anyway, back to the trade deadline.

Yes. I want us to get Rasmus Andersson and another C. I want us to make a big move.

 

[sepster]

He is leaving all those guys flat footed grasping at air.

No, he is not. I know comparing eras is always difficult but I break it down as follows:

One of the most cited arguments in favor of today's players being "better" than past players is nutrition and training. Today's players train both body and skills year-round in a way that past era players did not. The counter argument is that if past era players grew up in this era (rather than just time-travel in) with the same resources, what made them great in their era would transfer to the current era.

To entertain the time-travel concept (plucking a player out of one era and magically inserting them into another), I believe the younger Russian-born players entering into the NHL in the early 90s is the closest real-world analogy to that situation. Prior to the mid-90s, North American players did not train year-round. There are plenty of accounts of players that started in the late 80s and played into the early 00s telling of how training and preparation changed during the course of their career. Now, what helped to spur that change? The arrival of the Russian-born players in the early 90s. They grew up as part of the Russian Red Army, training physically and playing hockey year-round. Playing hockey was their entire life, 12 months of the year. They were machines. So, when they arrived in the NHL, aside from being the best-of-the-best from an entire continent, they were also conditioned at a much, much higher level than NA players.

And the NA players had no idea. The Russians had been living behind the Iron Curtain. There was no information coming out as to what they were doing or how they were training. They were from a completely different world, operating in a completely different way than the NA players. The Russians might as well have been aliens dropping in from another planet. There were plenty of comments from NA players on how surprised they were to learn about how the Russians trained. They had no choice but to follow suit.

So, if you were to accept that the early 90s Russians held similar training advantages as today's players, plus being the best-of-the-best from an entire continent, suddenly plugging them into the NHL in that era is about as close as you can get to time-traveling a McDavid back to that era. The Fedorov's, Bure's, Mogilny's were dominant. But, they were also hampered by the style of play, rules, and players of that era in the same way McDavid would be hampered and smaller skilled players like the Hughes', Krug's, etc couldn't even exist.

 

[Frk It]

No, he is not. I know comparing eras is always difficult but I break it down as follows:

One of the most cited arguments in favor of today's players being "better" than past players is nutrition and training. Today's players train both body and skills year-round in a way that past era players did not. The counter argument is that if past era players grew up in this era (rather than just time-travel in) with the same resources, what made them great in their era would transfer to the current era.

To entertain the time-travel concept (plucking a player out of one era and magically inserting them into another), I believe the younger Russian-born players entering into the NHL in the early 90s is the closest real-world analogy to that situation. Prior to the mid-90s, North American players did not train year-round. There are plenty of accounts of players that started in the late 80s and played into the early 00s telling of how training and preparation changed during the course of their career. Now, what helped to spur that change? The arrival of the Russian-born players in the early 90s. They grew up as part of the Russian Red Army, training physically and playing hockey year-round. Playing hockey was their entire life, 12 months of the year. They were machines. So, when they arrived in the NHL, aside from being the best-of-the-best from an entire continent, they were also conditioned at a much, much higher level than NA players.

And the NA players had no idea. The Russians had been living behind the Iron Curtain. There was no information coming out as to what they were doing or how they were training. They were from a completely different world, operating in a completely different way than the NA players. The Russians might as well have been aliens dropping in from another planet. There were plenty of comments from NA players on how surprised they were to learn about how the Russians trained. They had no choice but to follow suit.

So, if you were to accept that the early 90s Russians held similar training advantages as today's players, plus being the best-of-the-best from an entire continent, suddenly plugging them into the NHL in that era is about as close as you can get to time-traveling a McDavid back to that era. The Fedorov's, Bure's, Mogilny's were dominant. But, they were also hampered by the style of play, rules, and players of that era in the same way McDavid would be hampered and smaller skilled players like the Hughes', Krug's, etc couldn't even exist.

Yeah, I get your point.

Its just that guys like McDavid and Makar are a clear tier above the rest of the league and the average player now a days skaters way better than the average player in the 90’s did.

So I think those two would just absolutely skate laps around and blow the doors off your typical 2nd pair defenseman or 3rd line forward.

A guy like Stevens might catch them and light them up, but aside from that I think they would create so much with their skating it would be unfair.

 

[sepster]

Yeah, I get your point.

Its just that guys like McDavid and Makar are a clear tier above the rest of the league and the average player now a days skaters way better than the average player in the 90’s did.

So I think those two would just absolutely skate laps around and blow the doors off your typical 2nd pair defenseman or 3rd line forward.

A guy like Stevens might catch them and light them up, but aside from that I think they would create so much with their skating it would be unfair.

I can understand watching McDaivid being allowed to skate in today's game the way he is and think that he's significantly faster than past players, but according to statistics, that's not reality. While McDavid has been clocked at a top speed of 28+ MPH and a game-action speed of 25 MPH, that is right in line with the speed of past players. Who knows how accurate the measurement was, but Bobby Hull is said to have been clocked at 29.2 MPH.

A big reason why today's players look so fast and dynamic is because today's rules ALLOW then to play fast and dynamic in a way that past players were never allowed to.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Hopefully Copp Chiarot, Compher or Holl won't make it past the deadline with us. At least one of them plz!!

 

[sepster]

Hopefully Copp Chiarot, Compher or Holl won't make it past the deadline with us. At least one of them plz!!

All players definitely not as fast as past players