Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXVI: Sad Penguins, no Ploffs, got tariffed instead

[SomeDude]

That means you'd want a guy like Marner on the team to actually help build the team around McKenna then. Sure, ideally you're adding him in the 2026 off-season rather than the 2025 off-season, but there's no guarantee you'll get a chance to add a Marner caliber player.

It's likely a moot point because Marner probably doesn't sign here, but I just don't like the arguments being thrown out against signing him. He's a top player in the league that could be acquired for free, and I'm seriously skeptical that he's going to have any sort of negative consequences in terms of their draft position or rebuild that they wouldn't have already with Crosby here.

If we got McKenna, yes a player like Marner then makes a lot of sense. Similar to how we went out and got Palffy after the Sid lotto.

Until then, it just doesn’t make sense to me. If we are fortunate enough to land McKenna, there will be other good players available as UFA or trade targets next year. That’s the time to start adding.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It's because your argument is pretzeled up in peak HFboards-brain mental gymnastics, Emp.

Why are we concerned with draft position anyway? Is it to try and land a McKenna caliber prospect the team can use as a foundation stone to build upon for the next two decades? Oh, maybe that's why people are against a bottom 5ish team signing a FA entering statistically the tail end of his prime the year said prospect is eligible to draft, when their 38 year old franchise icon is two years away from retiring and the team bottoming out regardless.

"But McKenna also f***s up your draft position" You're trying to maintain that draft position *to land McKenna* man, jesus christ.

 

[The Old Master]

They have until June 25th to decide.

The draft is June 27th and 28th.

what kind of a stupid trade that was?

 

[JackFr]

Then why the hell is it a problem if the Penguins go out and sign Marner then? The argument people are using against signing Marner is that it will damage their draft position.

The 2003-2004 Penguins handing out a mega contract to Kariya would have been massively beneficial for the Crosby/Malkin/Staal core that they were developing. Having a prime aged Marner being a top player in the league would dramatically help out the next young core as they're getting acclimated to the NHL.

1. Because prime Marner is probably quite a bit better than 18 year old McKenna.

2. And more to the point, if you add Marner that is indicative of a organizational shift towards winning the Cup right now and presumably comes with a whole host of other signings and trades to improve the team around him. Because why would Marner sign up to just rebuild for his prime years?

 

[JackFr]

The odds we get McKenna or Landon Dupont or Maddox Schultz etc. are very slim. Everyone knows that. No ones thinks anything is guaranteed. But we need to give ourselves a shot at them, and in the process of doing so we should end up with some really great talent even if we don't get the lottery luck.

If the Pens had been desperate for Lemieux to win a Cup in his final few years + get playoff ticket revenue and spent a bunch of money on free agents and finished 15/14th in 2003 and 2004 and we missed out on a chance at Fleury, Malkin, and Sid, how would the franchise have been looking.

 

[SomeDude]

If the Pens had been desperate for Lemieux to win a Cup in his final few years + get playoff ticket revenue and spent a bunch of money on free agents and finished 15/14th in 2003 and 2004 and we missed out on a chance at Fleury, Malkin, and Sid, how would the franchise have been looking.

They’d probably be in Houston after a failed stint in Kansas City by now.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

If you’re worried about being too good… Tbh I think you could sign Marner, then trade EK and still TREMENDOUSLY stink.

The worst thing about signing Marner would be the potential of a Tavares-like impact on re-signing your theoretical young studs. “Marner makes 14 I should make at least 13” type thing. But I’d be thrilled to even have young guys so good that they want/deserve 8 figures right off their ELC.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If Marner were available next summer after we had already landed McKenna? Throw the f***in' bank at him. Sign one of FSG's dozen private jets over to him. Go crazy.

But you're trying to get McKenna, or a prospect of that caliber, to build around. Marner eliminates that possibility. If McKenna means you're barely too good to land Dupont? Whatever, that sucks, but you have a McKenna to build around. Marner being here eliminates the ability to get either, does nothing to make this team legitimately competitive before Sid retires, and isn't young enough to build around for the foreseeable future.

 

[Empoleon8771]

1. Because prime Marner is probably quite a bit better than 18 year old McKenna.

2. And more to the point, if you add Marner that is indicative of a organizational shift towards winning the Cup right now and presumably comes with a whole host of other signings and trades to improve the team around him. Because why would Marner sign up to just rebuild for his prime years?

That's an argument for why Marner wouldn't want to sign here, not an argument for why the Penguins shouldn't want to sign him.

The idea would be bringing in Marner and selling off older pieces like Karlsson and Rakell to accrue as many futures for the 2025-2027 drafts. The goal would be to be good again fairly soon and give Crosby maybe 2-3 years of competing before he retires, and have a large enough stash of picks and prospects from 2025-2027 that you can build up a new core for after Crosby retires and bring them onto a successful team.

The only reason I'm suggesting Marner this off-season is because he seems like he could actually be achievable this off-season, where it's unclear who in the 2026 or 2027 off-season they could actually pull off. If Marner wouldn't want to sign to be a part of that structure, then I think you just see who you can get in 2026 or 2027 to serve that same purpose.

If you’re worried about being too good… Tbh I think you could sign Marner, then trade EK and still TREMENDOUSLY stink.

The worst thing about signing Marner would be the potential of a Tavares-like impact on re-signing your theoretical young studs. “Marner makes 14 I should make at least 13” type thing. But I’d be thrilled to even have young guys so good that they want/deserve 8 figures right off their ELC.

This is basically what I want to do. Sign Marner, trade Rakell and Karlsson for draft picks and basically "retool" but with Crosby and Marner at the top of the team.

 

[JackFr]

If you’re worried about being too good… Tbh I think you could sign Marner, then trade EK and still TREMENDOUSLY stink.

The worst thing about signing Marner would be the potential of a Tavares-like impact on re-signing your theoretical young studs. “Marner makes 14 I should make at least 13” type thing. But I’d be thrilled to even have young guys so good that they want/deserve 8 figures right off their ELC.

You could do that, but let's be real Marner is not signing here to play on a team that sold off its only other good non-Sid players right after. He'll have offers from legit up-and-coming teams where they can say "this guy will be your linemate for 7 years and these are the pieces you'll be competing for a Cup with." He'll also probably have offers from contenders, including the one he plays for now.

You sign Marner for the same reason you traded for Karlsson, which is you think you can wrench open a contention window again by force before Sid is done. If we sign Marner, we will not finish poor in the standings on purpose like we did this year.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

You could do that, but let's be real Marner is not signing here to play on a team that sold off its only other good non-Sid players right after. He'll have offers from legit up-and-coming teams where they can say "this guy will be your linemate for 7 years and these are the pieces you'll be competing for a Cup with." He'll also probably have offers from contenders, including the one he plays for now.

You sign Marner for the same reason you traded for Karlsson, which is you think you can wrench open a contention window again by force before Sid is done. If we sign Marner, we will not finish poor in the standings on purpose like we did this year.

Here's the issue with Marner: no one knows what is important to him

Money
Winning
Playing with good players/friends
Locale

Could be a combo of all the above. He hasn't tipped his hand on what his motivations are.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

You could do that, but let's be real Marner is not signing here to play on a team that sold off its only other good non-Sid players right after. He'll have offers from legit up-and-coming teams where they can say "this guy will be your linemate for 7 years and these are the pieces you'll be competing for a Cup with." He'll also probably have offers from contenders, including the one he plays for now.

You sign Marner for the same reason you traded for Karlsson, which is you think you can wrench open a contention window again by force before Sid is done. If we sign Marner, we will not finish poor in the standings on purpose like we did this year.

You’re way overthinking it

If he leaves Toronto he’s leaving the best C of any single team that could sign him and coming here because we gave him the best contract.

You simply BS him a little about being good a year from now. Ultimately we are not much different than anyone else who could afford him, besides the Leafs and the Canes but the Canes aren’t gonna give him a competitive contract structure IMO.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah if this team is sincere about wanting to compete before Crosby retires, I think they just tell Marner something like "we're retooling for another 2 years and then we'll compete with you and Crosby leading the team with a bunch of young guys from the next 3 drafts". Want to say he wouldn't accept that? Sure, but it's a pitch I can totally see the team making.

They just need to get more aggressive with selling off guys like Rakell, Rust and Karlsson if they actually go that route. I'd basically advocate for stripping down the team entirely outside of Crosby and Marner if they'd go that route just to make sure you're still in a position to draft well, in addition to getting more picks and prospects for the guys you're selling. The only way I'd hesitate is if you'd be putting young guys in a bad position by selling off certain players.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Yeah if this team is sincere about wanting to compete before Crosby retires, I think they just tell Marner something like "we're retooling for another 2 years and then we'll compete with you and Crosby leading the team with a bunch of young guys from the next 3 drafts". Want to say he wouldn't accept that? Sure, but it's a pitch I can totally see the team making.

They just need to get more aggressive with selling off guys like Rakell, Rust and Karlsson if they actually go that route.

Ultimately I don’t think he hits FA. And if he does I doubt he signs here

And if we did sign him I don’t think we’re sellers even though we should be, but maybe.

But I mean are these other situations that much more appealing? I would say they are more appealing but it’s not an incredible gap. Canes are good team but not a desirable franchise. Sounds like Utah treats guys well and would get aggressive on a contract and has some decent talent I guess, and he could be “the man”. Anaheim or LA maybe? But I’m not sure a player is gonna view Chicago, Seattle, Nashville, Calgary, SJ much different than the spot we’re in- even if they have more young talent.

 

[Andy99]

As I’ve indicated in other posts, I don’t think our forward group is our number one problem so I think Marner or a high priced free agent is a luxury and unnecessary…sure it’d be great to upgrade the shooting talent (which Marner isn’t exactly the right candidate for) but at this point, it’s not going to produce tremendous gains for the club..unlike upgrading the D and goaltending and firing the coach…get a different D system in here, improve on the players to play it and improve the goaltending…more bang for the buck lol

 

[Turin]

The odds we get McKenna or Landon Dupont or Maddox Schultz etc. are very slim. Everyone knows that. No ones thinks anything is guaranteed. But we need to give ourselves a shot at them, and in the process of doing so we should end up with some really great talent even if we don't get the lottery luck.

If the Pens had been desperate for Lemieux to win a Cup in his final few years + get playoff ticket revenue and spent a bunch of money on free agents and finished 15/14th in 2003 and 2004 and we missed out on a chance at Fleury, Malkin, and Sid, how would the franchise have been looking.

The Pens are probably finishing bottom 10 again barring huge defense/goaltending changes whether the sign Marner or not. They are not finishing bottom 3 until Sid retires. They will need to win a lottery to get those players. Even talking about Schultz in 2028 at this point is insane. They do not have a 5 year tank window.

 

[Victor Z]

As I’ve indicated in other posts, I don’t think our forward group is our number one problem so I think Marner or a high priced free agent is a luxury and unnecessary…sure it’d be great to upgrade the shooting talent (which Marner isn’t exactly the right candidate for) but at this point, it’s not going to produce tremendous gains for the club..unlike upgrading the D and goaltending and firing the coach…get a different D system in here, improve on the players to play it and improve the goaltending…more bang for the buck lol

These are all good points but Sully is here to stay until he decides otherwise, and there's no way to know how upgrading the goaltending will work out -- the absolute worst idea is to run with Jarry & Ned again, therefore that's very likely what will happen.

As was true last year, and the year before, and is still true now.... the Pens' #1 need is for a solid, defensive, minute-eating #1 LH defenseman. Their #2 need is for a solid, defensive, minute-eating #2 LH defenseman. Of course that assume we are NOT trying to tank in 2025-26.

If we ARE trying to tank then just run elderly defensive stalwarts like Letang & Karlsson out there for 25 minutes a game, paired with clueless incompetents (Re-sign POJ for #1 LD?) Then re-sign Timmins for #2 LD (yes, I know he's righthanded -- so what?) so he can win the "Michael Bunting Award" that goes to the player who plays decently for a month after being acquired and then descends into his more typical sub-mediocrity for the entire next season.

 

[JackFr]

The Pens are probably finishing bottom 10 again barring huge defense/goaltending changes whether the sign Marner or not. They are not finishing bottom 3 until Sid retires. They will need to win a lottery to get those players. Even talking about Schultz in 2028 at this point is insane. They do not have a 5 year tank window.

Based on what, exactly? Sid will always be a 90 point player until he's 40? We were bottom 3 for a solid chunk of the season IIRC, and with Letang/Malkin continuing to decline and then getting replaced by no one + moving out guys like Karlsson/Rakell there's no way to say that confidently.

 

[Turin]

Based on what, exactly? Sid will always be a 90 point player until he's 40? We were bottom 3 for a solid chunk of the season IIRC, and with Letang/Malkin continuing to decline and then getting replaced by no one + moving out guys like Karlsson/Rakell there's no way to say that confidently.

Pens weren’t bottom three for any meaningful amount of time. The way to say that confidently is that they clearly plan to be better before he retires.

Unless they go all in tank this next season specifically (and win) but even then they are probably going to destroy any possibility that they get better before Sid retires if they do that. If the Pens are a bottom 3 pick in 3 years that also probably means they haven’t developed any of the prospects they already have which bodes ill.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

It's such utter bullshit to say a team with Sid cannot finish bottom 3. They were sitting 4th overall at the TDL iirc. This team *refuses* to finish bottom 3, that's the issue. A 100pt rookie Sid played on a team that finished with 22 wins and under 60pts. Remove Rust, remove Rakell, remove EK, this team's every single bit as dogshit as the Hawks or Sharks or Preds of the league. Sid or not.

This team just cannot swallow their pride and do the no-brainer thing to try and ensure that the post-Sid years are set up as well as they could be.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Based on what, exactly? Sid will always be a 90 point player until he's 40? We were bottom 3 for a solid chunk of the season IIRC, and with Letang/Malkin continuing to decline and then getting replaced by no one + moving out guys like Karlsson/Rakell there's no way to say that confidently.

The Pens were never in the 3rd position, they threaten the 5th but only made it to the 6th position.

It's such utter bullshit to say a team with Sid cannot finish bottom 3. They were sitting 4th overall at the TDL iirc. This team *refuses* to finish bottom 3, that's the issue. A 100pt rookie Sid played on a team that finished with 22 wins and under 60pts. Remove Rust, remove Rakell, remove EK, this team's every single bit as dogshit as the Hawks or Sharks or Preds of the league. Sid or not.

This team just cannot swallow their pride and do the no-brainer thing to try and ensure that the post-Sid years are set up as well as they could be.

They were 6th at the TDL.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The highest the Penguins draft position was at any point this year was #6 with being effectively tied in point% with Seattle and Buffalo for #4.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

It's about getting the most effectiveness from guys per minute deployed, relative to their contracts.
Koivunen may have not been the best example, for the reasons you mentioned. Sure.
Can just look at 2021 instead then and why the Pens won that division. Why was the offense #2 in the league?

View attachment 1013422

They just had a really high median in the Forward group. They didn't need Crosby to carry like this year's 2.64. They had other guys blowing away their AAV's to cover for him producing fairly average top-six ES numbers.
Malkin only having 3 5v5 goals (and missing 23 games) was also covered by lesser guys having career year rates.
Carter's not on this list cuz of the game filter, but he's another one who blew away his AAV.

The PP was 4th, another extension of well deployed cap resulting in net-positive performances.

It was the same on the blue line. Letang had possibly his best all-rounder year. Definitely outplayed his AAV by at least a few mil.
Dumo, Ceci, Marino (925k), Matheson all outplayed theirs too.

Jarry was only .909. They didn't even need him to be excellent to win that division. Just average.

The reason they lost in the playoffs was largely because of Jarry, but also because of L1 disappearing and getting almost nothing from McCann, ERod and Kapanen.
So their performance relative to AAV's dropped all over the map.


Yes, but that doesn't happen if Eichel doesn't outperform his AAV. It's not enough to just be a superstar. You need the right price tag for your team too.
Pietrangelo also played up to his 8.8M.

It isn't a fair blueprint, that's true. But what I'm saying is that you can win a Cup with like three 2nd lines, and a 3rd line. You have three middle defensive level pairings. Then maybe average to slightly above average goaltending at good AAVs gets it done.
If you're able to keep running back this formula, you have a huge chance to win.

It's not a formula teams even really try, so we don't have much precedent. GMs were always taught to go after the powerful core and build from there.
But I believe it can be done, with smart management. I think it's a huge strength to have enough guys who can cover for high-end players disappearing at critical times. You just get someone else stepping up every night, on rotation...much like the 2021 regular season Pens.

The salary cap has only been around for 20 years, but there's only been one team in like the past 80 years who has won the cup without a HOF forward still in their prime or one of the greatest goalies of all time.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

The salary cap has only been around for 20 years, but there's only been one team in like the past 80 years who has won the cup without a HOF forward still in their prime or one of the greatest goalies of all time.

I'd say St Louis and Vegas fit into the anomaly category.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I'd say St Louis and Vegas fit into the anomaly category.

St. Louis is the one I was referring to. I expect Eichel will make the HOF, and is a HOF level talent regardless