Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXVI: End of season wrap up

[Empoleon8771]

There's more than one way to skin a cat. It's not like the Pes didn't have older players on the cup teams.

Crosby 38
Malkin 39
Rakell 32
Rust 33

Remove: Hayes and Accairi the rest are under 30...

On defense:

Karlsson 35
Letang 38

Everyone else is under 30

Jarry at 30 Ned is not.

That's not a lot to deal with and only roughly 30% of the team over 30. It's about having the right mixture.

Forwards at 28.769 with Marner
Defense at 28.3
Goaltending at 29.5

Most of all, the team has a far better chance at competing with them on the team.

2016/17

Malkin 30
Hornqvist 30
Cullen 40
Kunitz 37
Daley 33
Fehr 31
Hainsey 35
Streit 39


There is room.

Rakell, Crosby, Rust
Koivunen, Malkin, Marner
McGroarty, Novak, Hallander

Doing the bear minimum to get rid of shitty players on the roster is not "getting younger". "Under 30" is not "young".

I know you're delusional about the state of this team, but come on.

 

[eXile3]

Wonder what is going to come out about Timmins in the WJC trial.

I’ve been following it a little and haven’t seen his name come up. Doesn’t sound like he was in the room during the event.

They might have just called him as a witness to testify who was at the bar that night, or hotel that night.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Doing the bear minimum to get rid of shitty players on the roster is not "getting younger".

I know you're delusional about the state of this team, but come on.

Delusional is not reading what's being put in front of you and still doing it anyways. it's all a fantasy stake in what you want vs. what's being done.

The team doesn't really need to get younger, they have already done that, If you are expecting a 26 year old rebuilding age average, you'll have a long wait.

 

[Gurglesons]

I’ve been following it a little and haven’t seen his name come up. Doesn’t sound like he was in the room during the event.

They might have just called him as a witness to testify who was at the bar that night, or hotel that night.

Hope so. Pretty damning stuff!

 

[Empoleon8771]

Delusional is not reading what's being put in front of you and still doing it anyways. it's all a fantasy stake in what you want vs. what's being done.

The team doesn't really need to get younger, they have already done that, If you are expecting a 26 year old rebuilding age average, you'll have a long wait.

Like I said, completely delusional.

You just flat out refuse to accept the reality of this team. It's hilarious that you're accusing me of "a fantasy stake in what you want vs what's being done" when you're so blatantly ignoring the actual reality of this team.

6 of the Penguins 10 top-6 forwards plus top-4 D next year will be 32 or older. They were the oldest roster in the NHL last year. Getting rid of 2 shitty depth players who should be removed anyway because they suck does literally nothing to make the team younger. Having 3 players 24 or younger (Tomasino, McGroarty and Koivunen) is not having youth.

 

[Peat]

Ahh I mean on bolded… how many players are what you described? Moreover how many players are in their prime and are what you described.

Proved it and still in prime:
Barkov
(maybe Tkachuk but not like he did anything pre Barkov/FLA)
McDavid
Drai
Eichel
Makar
MacKinnon
Kucherov
Hedman
Point
Rantanen

Perhaps but still need to win + still in prime:
Kaprizov
Johnston
Heiskanen
BTkachuk
Connor
????

Like ok I’d rather those guys on my team over Marner. And ofc there are others in the league that I would take over him. He can both be responsible for the Leafs shortcomings while taking too much blame/hate.

I guess my point is there are what 10, maybe 15 of these spearhead guys lying around. Maybe 1-2 (Kaprizov or Connor) might be available in the next 14 months and neither has been a spearhead past the 2nd round (Connor was a rookie in smaller when WPG went deep).

It’s ok for Marner to not to be one of them and still be in demand and make a lot of $$$. That’s a function of the market, demand, and great timing on signing contracts.

I’m also confused why we don’t expect him to take the best contract for himself. Fans liking it is a separate argument. Panarin is in a big market on a big ticket and doesn’t get killed. Pasta is paid similarly and doesn’t get killed for past few years of no success. I think there is 100% validity to Marner being a bit of a choker to this point. But I think it is only “a bit” and hes only considered this big time loser player because the market he is in is insane.

On the bolded.

We both agree he's responsible. We both agree he gets too much blame/hate.

I would move the slider closer to the responsible end because I think the Leafs' playoff record this past 9 years is simply mindblowing in terms of disappointed expectations. They're a regular season juggernaut without a single deep run to show for it. Pasta has one, Panarin has two, Marner has none. It's a genuinely nuts achievement and I wish there was a way to easily look up whether any other team has been a top 5 team for a decade regular season without a single deep run to show for it, because it's borderline impossible.

I find it hard to look past that even allowing for Toronto being cray-cray. And, bear in mind, I am not saying it makes him an awful player or someone who can't find success somewhere else... just it seems pretty likely he's not *that* guy. That in the tiers of the elite, he's in the bottom tier rather than the top, despite what the pay check says.

And re the money - I don't expect him to take less. My main point about the money is it sets expectations and I believe it is fair to judge him by those expectations. I don't believe in saying "well he's obviously not one of those guys" when his percentage of the salary cap says yes he is.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Fun fact: in 2019-2020, the Penguins had 12 players who played in 30 or more games for them that were 25 or younger. Those players were Guentzel, Simon, Blueger, Galchenyuk, ZAR, Murray, Kahun, Lafferty, Jarry, McCann, Pettersson and Marino. In 2024-2025, the Penguins had 2 players who played in 30 or more games that were 25 or younger, it was just Tomasino and Glass. And Glass isn't here anymore. If they only add Marner and do nothing else to get younger next year, they will only have 4 players who will be regulars next year under 25, it will just be Koivunen, McGroarty, Hallander and Tomasino.

But yes, please tell me how this team doesn't need to get younger, even though they were the oldest team in the NHL last year while ending as a bottom-10 team that is clearly getting worse.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Fun fact: in 2019-2020, the Penguins had 12 players who played in 30 or more games for them that were 25 or younger. Those players were Guentzel, Simon, Blueger, Galchenyuk, ZAR, Murray, Kahun, Lafferty, Jarry, McCann, Pettersson and Marino. In 2024-2025, the Penguins had 2 players who played in 30 or more games that were 25 or younger, it was just Tomasino and Glass. And Glass isn't here anymore. If they only add Marner and do nothing else to get younger next year, they will only have 4 players who will be regulars next year under 25, it will just be Koivunen, McGroarty, Hallander and Tomasino.

But yes, please tell me how this team doesn't need to get younger, even though they were the oldest team in the NHL last year while ending as a bottom-10 team that is clearly getting worse.

AND he was terrible!

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

AND he was terrible!

I suggest Glass free Pens teams in the future.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Looking back on those 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 teams, damn those Penguins teams were absolutely crushed by Sullivan and shitty goaltending. Those teams had absolutely terrific forward groups and solid defense groups while the core was still late prime aged and really good. It is indefensible that those teams lost in the play-in round to Montreal and 1st round to the NYI. Those teams had far better rosters than that in those years.

 

[Gurglesons]

Fun fact: in 2019-2020, the Penguins had 12 players who played in 30 or more games for them that were 25 or younger. Those players were Guentzel, Simon, Blueger, Galchenyuk, ZAR, Murray, Kahun, Lafferty, Jarry, McCann, Pettersson and Marino. In 2024-2025, the Penguins had 2 players who played in 30 or more games that were 25 or younger, it was just Tomasino and Glass. And Glass isn't here anymore. If they only add Marner and do nothing else to get younger next year, they will only have 4 players who will be regulars next year under 25, it will just be Koivunen, McGroarty, Hallander and Tomasino.

But yes, please tell me how this team doesn't need to get younger, even though they were the oldest team in the NHL last year while ending as a bottom-10 team that is clearly getting worse.

Well, Mike Sullivan is gone so that should be a start.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I suggest Glass free Pens teams in the future.

You'd think we'd have learned our lesson the first time around.

What... are they gonna get another McKenna in here, next?!?

 

[Empoleon8771]

Well, Mike Sullivan is gone so that should be a start.

Sullivan being gone doesn't change that guys like Dewar, Lizotte and such will be blocking guys like Ponomarev from NHL roles and a majority of their top-6 forwards and top-4 D will be in their mid to late 30s.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Sullivan being gone doesn't change that guys like Dewar, Lizotte and such will be blocking guys like Ponomarev from NHL roles and a majority of their top-6 forwards and top-4 D will be in their mid to late 30s.

This team's second line center can't even crack 20 goals anymore and will probably be playing with the likes of Rust or Raks (if he's lucky) and some rook next year. And that's just one problem.

The fact that anyone thinks this team is doing diddly shit next year except being JUST too good to draft anything worthwhile is hilarious to me.

 

[Peat]

Looking back on those 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 teams, damn those Penguins teams were absolutely crushed by Sullivan and shitty goaltending. Those teams had absolutely terrific forward groups and solid defense groups while the core was still late prime aged and really good. It is indefensible that those teams lost in the play-in round to Montreal and 1st round to the NYI. Those teams had far better rosters than that in those years.

Eh. Plenty of holes that could be picked in the roster vs Montreal, which then didn't play up to its billing because Sid/Geno/Jake were all walking wounded.

That said, I do sometimes wonder what would have happened if Murray hadn't gone to shit but instead fulfilled his potential.

 

[Gurglesons]

Sullivan being gone doesn't change that guys like Dewar, Lizotte and such will be blocking guys like Ponomarev from NHL roles and a majority of their top-6 forwards and top-4 D will be in their mid to late 30s.

I think similar to Poulin, Ponomarev is blocking Ponomarev from the NHL.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

He tries to pretend it's funny,

But you KNOW it actually digs at him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think similar to Poulin, Ponomarev is blocking Ponomarev from the NHL.

I mean, isn't that an argument for what I was saying in the first place? This team needs more quality youth.

 

[DesertPenguin]

So, there was a lot of talk about "Why Byram"? Here's a list of LHS defenseman, 26 or younger, that scored at least 20 points and had an average TOI at least 20min last season. Don't check me on the TOI please. I had to enter it manually from another site and did the seconds do decimal conversion in my head.

Of the names below, tell me who other than Byram would you prefer, and who we actually stand a chance to acquire. It's a short list. Most of these guys are untouchable.

Name	Age	Contract	Cap Hit	GP	G	A	P	TOI 5x5	TOI
Hughes, Quinn	Yr 4 of 6	$7,850,000	68	16	60	76	19.75	26.75
Dahlin, Rasmus	25	Yr 1 of 8	$11,000,000	73	17	51	68	18.47	24.15
Hutson, Lane	21	Yr 2 of 3	$950,000	82	6	60	66	16.56	22.75
Sanderson, Jake	22	Yr 1 of 8	$8,050,000	80	11	46	57	16.52	24.5
Sergachev, Mikhail	26	Yr 2 of 8	$8,500,000	77	15	38	53	17.3	25.1
Harley, Thomas	23	Yr 1 of 2	$4,000,000	78	16	34	50	18.08	23.3
Hughes, Luke	21	Yr 3 of 3	$925,000	71	7	37	44	17.8	21.2
LaCombe, Jackson	24	Yr 1 of 2	$925,000	75	14	29	43	16.28	22.3
Power, Owen	22	Yr 1 of 7	$8,350,000	79	7	33	40	16.63	21.3
Byram, Bowen	23	Yr 2 of 2	$3,850,000	82	7	31	38	18.02	22.75
Edvinsson, Simon	22	Yr 2 of 3	$894,167	78	7	24	31	18.22	21.1
Vlasic, Alex	23	Yr 1 of 6	$4,600,000	80	4	26	30	18.08	23.25
Broberg, Philip	23	Yr 1 of 2	$4,580,917	68	8	21	29	17.76	20.5
Miller, K'Andre	25	Yr 2 of 2	$3,872,000	74	7	20	27	17.77	21.95
Heiskanen, Miro	25	Yr 4 of 8	$8,450,000	50	5	20	25	19.44	25.15
Anderson, Mikey	25	Yr 2 of 8	$4,125,000	77	6	18	24	18.56	22.7
Romanov, Alexander	25	Yr 3 of 3	$2,500,000	64	4	16	20	18.77	22.3
Samberg, Dylan	26	Yr 2 of 2	$1,400,000	60	6	14	20	17.82	21.1
Bahl, Kevin	24	Yr 2 of 2	$1,050,000	73	3	17	20	17.48	21.4

 

[Peat]

I mean, isn't that an argument for what I was saying in the first place? This team needs more quality youth.

I guess you could call it a mild shift in emphasis on where the quality gap between the likes of Lizotte and the likes of Pono lies but yeah, that was my thought too.

Not sure there's a huge amount of immediate help coming there either unless some kids come back totally different players after their offseason training.

 

[Peat]

Also re Marner not waiving for the Carolina trade -

Just seen that his wife was seven months pregnant at the time.

Honestly, kind of raises the question why even ask. You know he's going to say no when that's the case, so why bother getting in his head about it? Lil weird in my book.

 

[molon labe]

Honestly, Marner + Goaltending and you should at least be in a wild card spot.

I'd like to see more done and better progress considering......well the state of the team has been pretty obvious for several years now. It's not like we were a bubble team and "omg what happened".

League-wide competition sorta sucks these past few years. Idk- something about it. East/West doesn't matter. Bunch of paper tigers running around, horrific goaltending, defensive corps that just suck, played out coaches/systems etc.

You look back on the absolute gauntlet that was playoff hockey for so long... just doesn't feel the same. Not saying we should all get our hopes up to compete - there's still have/have nots....it's just the 'haves' are so few these days.

It also feeds in to just how bad this team sucked under Sully. But yeah I mean...if you want to get into the playoffs it doesn't seem all that difficult anymore. Points are tighter but we straight up gave half the games away under a system and roster that couldn't score. Dangerous territory on mainboards to discuss such things but I just think of prime Sid/Ovi in today's NHL with 3 goalies. Or the 2016 Pens / old Kings / Blackhawks these days... 130 point teams? Just not seeing as much fight in the teams or juggernauts. I look at Florida and love the depth - but that sorta used to be the hallmark of 'most' playoff teams. Maybe a bit revisionist here but whatever, it's Summer'ish for us.

 

[DesertPenguin]

Wonder what is going to come out about Timmins in the WJC trial.

At least so far, I don't think he's a defendant. He's been called to testify, but unless Im missing something he's not implicated of any wrong doing.

 

[molon labe]

Also re Marner not waiving for the Carolina trade -

Just seen that his wife was seven months pregnant at the time.

Honestly, kind of raises the question why even ask. You know he's going to say no when that's the case, so why bother getting in his head about it? Lil weird in my book.

They had every opportunity to trade him before his NMC kicked in. The media is conveniently forgetting that part. All of a sudden Rantanen is available because his agent played games with everyone - and it's Marner's fault for not wanting to leave his friends/family? I had no idea about his personal life until today...but even before that Toronto can eat a bag. The amount of blame he gets from those jilted fans is insane. Almost as insane as the fans commenting on these threads/videos about how they should run it back lol.

That front office chose to build a one dimensional team and thought that it would somehow be enough to overcompensate for everything else. But because Marner held out of that training camp - they never forgave him....because you know - had he taken 3M less they totally wouldn't have blown their wad on whatever other star was due for contract or another Reaves to sit in the A. Stupid org man.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't know why Marner would go there. The Sharks are really bad. They aren't turning it around in one off season even with Marner.

I don't know why he'd come here or to Chicago for the same reason.

Does Marner really want to go through a rebuild?

With Celebrini, Smith, Eklund, Dickinson, and the addition of whoever they get at 2nd overall in a month, I think the addition of Marner marks the end of the rebuild phase for that team. Do I think they jump like 40pts in the standings? Probably not, but they'll have a hell of a lot of young talent on ELCs and plenty of room to add through FA or trades with the cap jumping like crazy over the next few years.

Chicago's in a much worse spot imo, and this team is easily in the worst of all three if you're viewing things through a like 5 year lens.