Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXVI: End of season wrap up

[Peat]

Comparing how Penguins fans would react to something with how Leafs fans are is pretty difficult when one lot got everything they wanted and can temper their expectations with that while the other has been fed nothing but disappointment only for their new gold dawn to disappoint them even more. There just isn't a comparable in the Pittsburgh sports market. The Pirates come closest but Pirates fans have no expectations.

I'm not saying what the Leafs fans are doing is sane or natural, but if you're looking for a benchmark Pittsburgh just isn't one. Honestly, the best comparable I can think of is the England national football team... and things get pretty nasty there. But I've not heard of that sort of in in person nastiness.

In any case, looking at this from a slightly askew lens, in the last decade, the Leafs have the 5th best regular season points percentage and the 23rd playoff points percentage. They are, even allowing for the rancid bad luck of existing in a decade of Atlantic Division supremacy (Bruins 1st, Tampa 2nd, Panthers 7th for regular season in that period; 6 straight years of an Atlantic Division team in the final), pretty clearly the biggest post-season disappointment in the league and it's not even close.

I think that's always going to be fraught, particularly when the player's camp goes hard for the money.

Fwiw, I'm not sure that Marner catches more heat than Matthews. More than Nylander, but Nylander is paid less and shows up more in the playoffs, and more than Tavares, but Matthews and Marner seem to be equally criticised as team leaders who don't lead, stars who don't shine at the brightest moment, and just guys who don't have what it takes. Tbh, I'm not sure Marner does. I'd support the gamble of getting him at a fair price in UFA, but with trepidation, and I wouldn't do that if this team was a true bottom feeder all the way through and not some weird lopsided thing that isn't good but does still have Sidney Crosby.

 

[Turin]

If it's just a matter of Marner wanting his bag at the time and being public about it whatever... I don't care. I have even less love for league GMs and owners than I do entitled players.

This board would have lost their f***ing minds if a Pens player had that negotiation lol.

 

[Gurglesons]

Don’t worry. I hate him enough for two of us.

He's so obnoxious.

 

[JackFr]

The vitriol that Marner gets is honestly really odd to me.

I get that he's paid well and expectations are a bitch and all that but man... you'd think dude was single-handedly and very intentionally derailing that entire franchise the way people talk. Hell most years I'm every bit as impressed with Marner if not moreso than Matthews. Certainly more than that donut Tavares.

It's pretty simple at the end of the day.

Marner's whole game is premised around the perimeter of the ice. He is one of if not the best in the league at taking a puck off the wall (often after winning a battle) and getting it to a linemate in one motion. He did it constantly with McDavid at Four Nations. He can do it from behind the net, from the neutral zone, from the blueline, etc. He knows he's small and slow and can't bully his way to the slot himself so instead he gets the puck into the slot by passing it + puts pucks on a platter for guys who are better in transition.

When things tighten up in the postseason, he doesn't play with more intensity but keeps executing those plays. He also gets way more pass-first because he's not able to get to the slot, and when you're passing everything a lot hinges on whether your linemates will actually finish. Past two postseasons he ranks very high in passes to the slot per game.

If Matthews was scoring like he normally does, the stuff that drives Leafs fans singularly insane about Marner (small, slow, soft, not intense) wouldn't matter because they'd remember those clever plays off the wall and passes to the slot. But when they lose Marner is the ideal scapegoat, especially because of all the contract drama that's surrounded him since 2019.

 

[Gurglesons]

Comparing how Penguins fans would react to something with how Leafs fans are is pretty difficult when one lot got everything they wanted and can temper their expectations with that while the other has been fed nothing but disappointment only for their new gold dawn to disappoint them even more. There just isn't a comparable in the Pittsburgh sports market. The Pirates come closest but Pirates fans have no expectations.

I'm not saying what the Leafs fans are doing is sane or natural, but if you're looking for a benchmark Pittsburgh just isn't one. Honestly, the best comparable I can think of is the England national football team... and things get pretty nasty there. But I've not heard of that sort of in in person nastiness.

In any case, looking at this from a slightly askew lens, in the last decade, the Leafs have the 5th best regular season points percentage and the 23rd playoff points percentage. They are, even allowing for the rancid bad luck of existing in a decade of Atlantic Division supremacy (Bruins 1st, Tampa 2nd, Panthers 7th for regular season in that period; 6 straight years of an Atlantic Division team in the final), pretty clearly the biggest post-season disappointment in the league and it's not even close.

I think that's always going to be fraught, particularly when the player's camp goes hard for the money.

Fwiw, I'm not sure that Marner catches more heat than Matthews. More than Nylander, but Nylander is paid less and shows up more in the playoffs, and more than Tavares, but Matthews and Marner seem to be equally criticised as team leaders who don't lead, stars who don't shine at the brightest moment, and just guys who don't have what it takes. Tbh, I'm not sure Marner does. I'd support the gamble of getting him at a fair price in UFA, but with trepidation, and I wouldn't do that if this team was a true bottom feeder all the way through and not some weird lopsided thing that isn't good but does still have Sidney Crosby.

Seemed to do fine in the 4 Nations when he won the game in OT for Sweden and then assisted on the goal that won in OT against the US.

 

[JackFr]

Seemed to do fine in the 4 Nations when he won the game in OT for Sweden and then assisted on the goal that won in OT against the US.

Even then, Canada fans hated him the whole tournament. An OT winner, two huge primary assists in the Final, and they despised him the whole way. It's just part and parcel of how he plays.

 

[Turin]

You are using the argument that people use against Sid to prove Patrick Kane is a better playoff performer just so you know.

Kane is an elite playoff performer and so is Sid. If you lead the playoffs in scoring multiple times before you turn 22, once in points and then in goals we’re not exactly having the same f***ing conversation.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

This board would have lost their f***ing minds if a Pens player had that negotiation lol.

Sure. On this board. Difference is this board is probably as hardcore as it gets. like the radio show might rip Player X for taking negotiations to the wire- for 5 min- then they cut to Steelers training camp talk where Merrill Hoge comes on for 45 min and talks about which undrafted free agent looked good in the Hall of Fame game.

Canada- especially Toronto— is just so so so much more amplified and the fans are way more dialed in to the finer details of everything because it’s constantly reported, discussed, and analyzed by the media.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This board would have lost their f***ing minds if a Pens player had that negotiation lol.

I mean this board loses it's mind about everything.

I dunno... I'm just not going to use Marner's contract negotiations against him. It doesn't seem egregious at all by modern standards and if fans want to be upset about it I have no problems with that. I just find it to be a tertiary issue and not really relevant to what is going on out on the ice. I don't think there have been any years of that deal that were underwater or whatever. Playoff production is disappointing but it's a team game... on an individual basis year to year Marner earns his money IMO.

 

[Turin]

Sure. On this board. Difference is this board is probably as hardcore as it gets. like the radio show might rip Player X for taking negotiations to the wire- for 5 min- then they cut to Steelers training camp talk where Merrill Hoge comes on for 45 min and talks about which undrafted free agent looked good in the Hall of Fame game.

Canada- especially Toronto— is just so so so much more amplified and the fans are way more dialed in to the finer details of everything because it’s constantly reported, discussed, and analyzed by the media.

I’m responding to a poster saying he doesn’t care if a player tries to get the bag. I’m simply pointing out that nobody here would have been ok with a Pens player having that negotiation. Not disputing that Toronto cares about hockey more than Pittsburgh.

 

[Gurglesons]

Kane is an elite playoff performer and so is Sid. If you lead the playoffs in scoring multiple times before you turn 22, once in points and then in goals we’re not exactly having the same f***ing conversation.

I'm just saying criticizing players that are on an island for not producing in G5-7 is the exact argument people like Midnight Judges make to argue Crosby isn't actually good in the playoffs.

Marner isn't a Crosby or Kane. But, he's largely been playing on an island along with Matthews. And he's not a trigger man, so when Matthews dries up in the playoffs as he has done, it kills Marner's production.

 

[Gurglesons]

Even then, Canada fans hated him the whole tournament. An OT winner, two huge primary assists in the Final, and they despised him the whole way. It's just part and parcel of how he plays.

Canadian fans and media are the reason their NHL teams haven't won a cup in 30 years.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I’m responding to a poster saying he doesn’t care if a player tries to get the bag. I’m simply pointing out that nobody here would have been ok with a Pens player having that negotiation. Not disputing that Toronto cares about hockey more than Pittsburgh.

I’m refuting that a Pens player would get nearly the same amount of blowback as Marner does in Toronto. Booing Jagr is way different than how everyone drags his name through the mud nonstop.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I’m responding to a poster saying he doesn’t care if a player tries to get the bag. I’m simply pointing out that nobody here would have been ok with a Pens player having that negotiation. Not disputing that Toronto cares about hockey more than Pittsburgh.

In the end why do we care if a player gets his money?

We get it... he hasn't done it in the playoffs and that sucks. But he's not exactly the only guy on the team and do we really think he hasn't lived up to that deal over the years? He's a pretty consistent ~90 point player for years and years. I feel like there have been far worse deals in that same timeframe.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Why does no one want to play in Canada?

Canada:

Even then, Canada fans hated him the whole tournament. An OT winner, two huge primary assists in the Final, and they despised him the whole way. It's just part and parcel of how he plays.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

In the end why do we care if a player gets his money?

I think the truth is hockey is a pretty “large” team sport in terms of roster size compared to other leagues.

Contracts are long, stars alone don’t win you titles like the NBA and you need depth. Theres no luxury tax or ability to spend beyond the cap. Theres no outs to contracts.

As a result I think hardcore fans are more sensitive to guys getting paid.

 

[Turin]

I’m refuting that a Pens player would get nearly the same amount of blowback as Marner does in Toronto. Booing Jagr is way different than how everyone drags his name through the mud nonstop.

That’s because Jagr was good in the playoffs and won playoff rounds and cups. If he never won anything and was bad in the playoffs, he would have got a ton hate, not as much because Pittsburgh simply doesn’t care about hockey as much. I don’t buy the woah is Marner, Toronto is so mean narrative. Sorry. They’re both bad for each other.

 

[Gurglesons]

Maybe if Ron Hextall wasn't giving away players and not re-signing players like Marchment, Evan Rodrigues, Connor Brown, Jared McCann and Rasmus Sandin for nothing the Penguins would've won more.

Oh wait. Sorry, that was Kyle with the Leafs.

At least they gave up all their futures for Ryan O Reilly, Noel Acciari and Nick Foligno.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

That’s because Jagr was good in the playoffs and won playoff rounds and cups. If he never won anything and was bad in the playoffs, he would have got a ton hate, not as much because Pittsburgh simply doesn’t care about hockey as much. I don’t buy the woah is Marner, Toronto is so mean narrative. Sorry. They’re both bad for each other.

But bolded is my point? It is not a small delta.

Also MAF was a goddamn mess in the playoffs and people act like he walks on water.

 

[Peat]

Seemed to do fine in the 4 Nations when he won the game in OT for Sweden and then assisted on the goal that won in OT against the US.

He got to be a support player in a very strong environment, and tbh wasn't a great one for most of the tournament. Came up big when it counted but play to play, was quiet and Canada didn't do great when he was on ice.

As a leader and spearhead at the NHL level? Unproven at best.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I mean I think the point a lot of people are making is that Marner is better suited as an elite complimentary player and not a play driver.

I have no idea who is expecting a leader but if they were they were always gonna be disappointed. And yes before you posit the rebuttal... a 90-100 point complimentary wing with elite vision and outstanding defensive ability is worth that contract.

 

[Gurglesons]

He got to be a support player in a very strong environment, and tbh wasn't a great one for most of the tournament. Came up big when it counted but play to play, was quiet and Canada didn't do great when he was on ice.

As a leader and spearhead at the NHL level? Unproven at best.

I'm not sure anyone thinks Marner should be a leader or a spearhead at the NHL level.

He's an elite contributor and should be paid as such though in UFA.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

He got to be a support player in a very strong environment, and tbh wasn't a great one for most of the tournament. Came up big when it counted but play to play, was quiet and Canada didn't do great when he was on ice.

As a leader and spearhead at the NHL level? Unproven at best.

in the playoffs the narrative is “he might be point per game but he wilts in big moments

4 nations he makes some big plays in big moments and fans are like “well he wasn’t 2009 ECF Malkin every shift”

Is he above criticism-no. You want to be paid like that you cannot be pizza-ing 360 backhand passes from your own zone. But the whole problem is Toronto media builds him up to a point where prime Crosby probably couldn’t deliver on expectations. Of course he’s not the best player in a USA Canada game or in a series with Barkov and Tkachuk.

Overall- he just scored p/pg in the playoffs, they outscored opponents while he was on the ice. and the depth got f***ing killed. Yet he is the story.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I mean, even Tkachuk and Maurice was saying it after game 7. Toronto's a shithole to play in entirely because of the fanbase and the sports media. Psychopaths.

Marner's situation feels a lot like Phil's. He's gotta find a landing spot where he can do his thing without being the focus. Settle into a supporting cast role and excel.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Yeah like... it's a little odd to me to have THIS fanbase lampoon Marner and his failings after seeing like... what... Kessel, Hornqvist AND Hossa all here at various points?

Those guys were all "playoff losers" right?