Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXVI: End of season wrap up

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Agree

Pryor jr has run all drafts under both so far. Obv Dubas is responsible for his picks and Hextall’s responsible for his at the end of the day - not absolving or praising either guy— but it was the same team. I think it’s pretty telling Pryor packs his things and they ship out the highest pick he made right after.

This year is gonna be interesting imo.

I wonder how much is in Pryor's hands and how much is in the GMs hands, sometimes. In regards to the draft.

Evidently Shero was more or less in charge of their first pick and sorta let his scouting department take over after that.

 

[Gurglesons]

Agree

Pryor jr has run all drafts under both so far. Obv Dubas is responsible for his picks and Hextall’s responsible for his at the end of the day - not absolving or praising either guy— but it was the same team. I think it’s pretty telling Pryor packs his things and they ship out the highest pick he made right after.

This year is gonna be interesting imo.

Fair.

I'll give Hextall credit for Pickering, Broz and Murashov, but his remaining picks (which were a bunch of 5ths-7ths to be fair) are a bunch of guys that I don't think anyone even knows of. Like who the hell is Nolan Collins or Luke Devlin? Tankov was hyped up for a minute but that hype has completely disappeared, especially because Ilyin looks way better in the KHL.

I don't see how Dubas' picks in 2 years are looking worse than Hextall's picks in 2 years. IMO Yager (turned into McGroarty), Brunicke, Pieniniemi and Ilyin is better than Pickering, Broz and Murashov.

I just don't really trust Dubas' drafting philosphy. His work in Toronto wasn't very good. I'm not really sold on any of the players we took the last two years being impact.

To me the best players in the prospect system were either trades (which obviously Dubas gets credit for) or from Hextall / JR.

 

[Peat]

Yeah it's really more JR than anyone. JR's drafts with the Penguins are horrid, while both Hextall and Dubas seem to have at least decent drafts so far.

I know Rutherford had a reputation for erratic judgment before he even joined the Penguins, but there's times I consider whether he had some sort of brain ailment in 2017 or so because the before and after is just incredible. Like his first three drafts were at least on the respectable end of not doing it. After? Gott im himmel.

But then for all I know, in three years Blomqvist is the starting goalie, Poulin and Hallander are liked bottom sixers, and all of Hextall's and Dubas' guys to date are nowhere except for, I dunno, Zam Plante or some bullshit.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I wonder how much is in Pryor's hands and how much is in the GMs hands, sometimes. In regards to the draft.

Evidently Shero was more or less in charge of their first pick and sorta let his scouting department take over after that.

Yeah I gotta think if any GM is getting involved it’s only with the high picks

I’m truly not sure with Dubas/Pryor but I’d be curious. I could see Clark having full reign given how long they’ve worked together though.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I know Rutherford had a reputation for erratic judgment before he even joined the Penguins, but there's times I consider whether he had some sort of brain ailment in 2017 or so because the before and after is just incredible. Like his first three drafts were at least on the respectable end of not doing it. After? Gott im himmel.

But then for all I know, in three years Blomqvist is the starting goalie, Poulin and Hallander are liked bottom sixers, and all of Hextall's and Dubas' guys to date are nowhere except for, I dunno, Zam Plante or some bullshit.

I think JR is the prime NHL GM example of "spaghetti thrown at the wall" and we just got on board for the part of the timeline where only the best noodles stuck.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Kevin Stevens caving his face in is almost as big of a what-if as Mario and the health issues. Definitely one of my favorite all-time players and should be the definition for a skilled power forward. He was also kind of a dick on the ice and that's a huge plus.

Could Make a case for him as the best all time power forward in the game.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I just don't really trust Dubas' drafting philosphy. His work in Toronto wasn't very good. I'm not really sold on any of the players we took the last two years being impact.

To me the best players in the prospect system were either trades (which obviously Dubas gets credit for) or from Hextall / JR.

Eh Dubas added Brunicke with the draft and I think Brunicke is better than any prospect JR added to the system by far. I'm not going to get into the Pickering vs Brunicke debate but I think those two are comparable.

Hextall did pretty well on the few amount of high picks he had, he only had 1 1st (Pickering), 1 2nd (Broz), 0 3rds and 1 4th (Murashov) in his 2 drafts and he looks like he hit on all of them. That said, I do think Dubas has had a similar amount of hits but he has had more picks. Yager and Brunicke are talked about the most, but I think Pieniniemi and Ilyin are both really interesting as well and Howe isn't bad either (even if he didn't produce like I was hoping).

Pieniniemi finished with 10 goals and 60 points in 60 regular season games and then had 4 goals and 10 points in 11 playoff games. Really interested to see how he does in WBS next year.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I know the idiots on the prospect forum were all mad he made TC for the WJC, but Howe did give me the vibe there he’s gonna be a much better pro than junior point accumulator.

Prob only a bottom 6er but hopefully the ACL doesn’t derail him and he’s a solid one.

Again though, I really think Howe Brunicke Yager Pickering all the same draft philosophy and scouting staff despite different GMs.

but I’m guessing so maybe I’m wrong (but notice what league they are all from?)

 

[Gurglesons]

I know Rutherford had a reputation for erratic judgment before he even joined the Penguins, but there's times I consider whether he had some sort of brain ailment in 2017 or so because the before and after is just incredible. Like his first three drafts were at least on the respectable end of not doing it. After? Gott im himmel.

But then for all I know, in three years Blomqvist is the starting goalie, Poulin and Hallander are liked bottom sixers, and all of Hextall's and Dubas' guys to date are nowhere except for, I dunno, Zam Plante or some bullshit.

Zam Plante is going to be an NHLer. I'm still convinced.

 

[Peat]

I know the idiots on the prospect forum were all mad he made TC for the WJC, but Howe did give me the vibe there he’s gonna be a much better pro than junior point accumulator.

Prob only a bottom 6er but hopefully the ACL doesn’t derail him and he’s a solid one.

Again though, I really think Howe Brunicke Yager Pickering all the same draft philosophy and scouting staff despite different GMs.

but I’m guessing so maybe I’m wrong (but notice what league they are all from?)

I'm not saying you're wrong per se, but you can pick a difference between Dubas' draft strategy in Toronto and in Pittsburgh?

Zam Plante is going to be an NHLer. I'm still convinced.

Well let's hope you're right. Next Guentzel, mark it now.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

People use the lack of first rounders during their window as an excuse but I'm not buyin'

Shit man sheer odds should have yielded more than THAT.

Especially when you see other teams hit on their late 1st/2nd/3rd rounders.

I'm not expecting that every 2nd round pick should pan out, but it's almost comical how NONE of our picks over the past however long have become regular top six guys. Even our "best" picks recently all seem to be bottom line players (Sundqvist, Blueger, etc.).

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Zam Plante is going to be an NHLer. I'm still convinced.

His name sounds like a typo from one of those old EHM hockey simulators where it was meant to be Cam Plante or Sam Plante.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I'm not saying you're wrong per se, but you can pick a difference between Dubas' draft strategy in Toronto and in Pittsburgh?

Too hard to tell with limited sample but maybe?Yager felt a little off tbh but technically that’s the highest pick Dubas has ever made, so no real comps.

The only one that feels very off brand for Clark/Dubas is Howe in the 40s.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

"Zam" looks like it's supposed to be short for something but what? Zamothy? Zamopher? Zamjamin? Zamtholomew?

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Agree

Pryor jr has run all drafts under both so far. Obv Dubas is responsible for his picks and Hextall’s responsible for his at the end of the day - not absolving or praising either guy— but it was the same team. I think it’s pretty telling Pryor packs his things and they ship out the highest pick he made right after.

This year is gonna be interesting imo.

Yeah, this is the first year with Wes Clark at the helm and it's going to be interesting to see what kind of deviation from previous recent drafts there is.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah I think it's more that both Hextall and Dubas have similar drafting methods/preferences than anything. In his time with the Flyers, Hextall was CHL and USHL heavy with drafting, while seeming to prefer the WHL a bit over the OHL. In his time with the Leafs, Dubas was very CHL heavy with a clear preference for the OHL, but also dipped a good bit into Scandinavia (especially Finland). I don't think there's that big of a difference there.

Honestly I think most GMs from Canada have similar drafting methods: go CHL heavy while having an additional preference for one other region like the USHL/college, Liiga/Finland juniors, SHL/Sweden juniors or KHL/Russia juniors.

 

[Peat]

"Zam" looks like it's supposed to be short for something but what? Zamothy? Zamopher? Zamjamin? Zamtholomew?

Wham Zam Thank You Ma'am.

Too hard to tell with limited sample but maybe?Yager felt a little off tbh but technically that’s the highest pick Dubas has ever made, so no real comps.

The only one that feels very off brand for Clark/Dubas is Howe in the 40s.

Howe feels off brand, but in the same way as Knies.

Having read a few analysis, it feels like it did trend more WHL and less US system than a lot of Dubas' drafts but the sample is tiny.

More of an emphasis on big dmen in Pittsburgh?

edit: TIL Dubas once had 11 picks outside of the 1st in 2020 and none of them have played an NHL game yet. Nice.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

"Zam" looks like it's supposed to be short for something but what? Zamothy? Zamopher? Zamjamin? Zamtholomew?

His parents were big superhero fans.

Shazam!

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Wham Zam Thank You Ma'am.



Howe feels off brand, but in the same way as Knies.

Having read a few analysis, it feels like it did trend more WHL and less US system than a lot of Dubas' drafts but the sample is tiny.

More of an emphasis on big dmen in Pittsburgh?

I wonder how much of Dubas' drafting philosophy in Pittsburgh was with an eye toward what Sullivan would want (since it seemed like at the time Sullivan was coach for life) and if, any, is changed now that it's no longer Sullivan's team.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Wham Zam Thank You Ma'am.

We're back from suffer draft shitty if he pans out eh?

Sorry sorry sorry

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Howe feels off brand, but in the same way as Knies.

Having read a few analysis, it feels like it did trend more WHL and less US system than a lot of Dubas' drafts but the sample is tiny.

More of an emphasis on big dmen in Pittsburgh?

edit: TIL Dubas once had 11 picks outside of the 1st in 2020 and none of them have played an NHL game yet. Nice.

Nah I’d say Knies was on brand. I’d say Knies, Minten, Cowan, Danford (Im just using Clarke picks) all kinda similar where they are athletic guys who did not put up big numbers in their DY but have traits for pro “B” game and enough skill to potentially play up the lineup in a perfect world. I’d honestly throw Brunicke in there even if he doesn’t seem as smart as they typically like.

Howe to me is dissimilar as smaller guy without elite offense or athleticism— solely great B game.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Back to roster talk, just for fun:

-Rakell and Pittsburgh's 2026 2nd to Minnesota for Rossi's RFA rights, sign him to a long-term deal
-Karlsson at $5 million to Carolina for Walker and Dallas' 2026 1st
-Walker, Dallas' 2026 1st and and St. Louis' 2026 2nd to Buffalo for Byram's RFA rights, sign him to a long-term deal.

In total, it ends up being Rakell, Karlsson and 2 2nds for Rossi and Byram. I feel like you may have to replace the Dallas 1st with the NYR 1st in that Buffalo deal but the rest looks reasonable in value.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I'm still iffy on Byram's upside, especially when talking about long-term deals. He seemed to be at his best when he was sheltered behind Makar/Toews in Colorado, but became more exposed when he had to take on more responsibility.

In Pittsburgh, with presumably Karlsson gone and an aging Letang, he'd be the de facto #1D.

 

[Peat]

I wonder how much of Dubas' drafting philosophy in Pittsburgh was with an eye toward what Sullivan would want (since it seemed like at the time Sullivan was coach for life) and if, any, is changed now that it's no longer Sullivan's team.

Possible, although I've always thought their hockey philosophies were pretty similar to begin with and they certainly had a lot of depth forwards in common when Dubas took the job.

Nah I’d say Knies was on brand. I’d say Knies, Minten, Cowan, Danford (Im just using Clarke picks) all kinda similar where they are athletic guys who did not put up big numbers in their DY but have traits for pro “B” game and enough skill to potentially play up the lineup in a perfect world. I’d honestly throw Brunicke in there even if he doesn’t seem as smart as they typically like.

Howe to me is dissimilar as smaller guy without elite offense or athleticism— solely great B game.

Hmm fair. I was seeing them as third wheel types. I can see a lot of short kings going through Dubas' Toronto picks though.

Having been through Dubas' draft picks though, I think D size is a big difference though. I think he might have drafted more 6'1"+ dmen with the Pens than he did with the Leafs. But then I think that one might stick with Clark, as the moment where people thought height no longer mattered as much with D has come and gone very quickly.

edit: I'd also suggest that the Knies-Minten stand out as a different emphasis on size compared to Amirov/Hirvonen/Robertson. Feels like there might have been a switch in their philosophies there.

 

[SEALBound]

Being a scout must be damn tough work. No way it doesn't weigh on a scouting staff when your prospect pool doesn't amount to much.

I wonder if they take time to go and re-evaluate misses? For example, Aliaksei Protas. 3rd round pick in 2019. Dude is killing with Washington right now. We took Legare a couple picks before who, by all accounts, is a dud. Does a scouting staff ever go back and re-read their scouting reports and maybe look at things they may have missed?

You would hope there is a Bayesian or learning model approach where they go back and say "here's what we learned, here's what we did well, here's what we missed on" and hope that it makes future selections better.