Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXVI: End of season wrap up

[Peat]

I’d argue that the bones of this are accurate. My one pushback is let’s not excuse him completely— this was pre beef inflation and he could’ve done better.

Even at Neal for Hornqvist prices, or the market opening 1st for Barclay Goodrow and 1st + good prospect for Blake Coleman (or the price paid for Reaves...), I think he'd have struggled to pivot the roster.

But yes. Let's not forget that he also basically went insane in many, many ways.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That said, sign Marner this off-season and make your L2 McGroarty-Rossi-Marner and I think your L2 is set basically for the next 5+ years.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't know if the idea of "beef wins championships" has ever REALLY been abandoned or whatever. Especially in this league where you know all these former dinosaur players, execs and coaches want to see that "old school" mentality. It's just that most big, tough guys can't keep up in today's game. Your Darian Hatchers and the like are relics and likely wouldn't survive a season in today's league.

That doesn't mean I approve of the truly spineless approach this team has taken for years... you can be EFFECTIVELY tough without having a bunch of mutant goons but we just don't do that for some reason. Evgeni Malkin is like the toughest player on this team most years sadly enough and everyone hated him for it lol

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I don't know if the idea of "beef wins championships" has ever REALLY been abandoned or whatever. Especially in this league where you know all these former dinosaur players, execs and coaches want to see that "old school" mentality. It's just that most big, tough guys can't keep up in today's game. Your Darian Hatchers and the like are relics and likely wouldn't survive a season in today's league.

That doesn't mean I approve of the truly spineless approach this team has taken for years... you can be EFFECTIVELY tough without having a bunch of mutant goons but we just don't do that for some reason. Evgeni Malkin is like the toughest player on this team most years sadly enough and everyone hated him for it lol

I think we won those cups with pretty much zero physicality because more of those dinosaurs were around

But now 8 years later? I think theres very few of those dinosaurs. The guys that really can’t keep up are pretty much out of the game or at least not playing in big roles for teams in the 2nd round.

 

[SEALBound]

What hilarious is Zucker-Erod-Kapanen was actually insane good for a beautiful 103 minutes of hockey in 2021-22. 70% XGF and actual GF was even better — 7 goals for, 0 against at 5v5. Wasn’t a ridiculous shooting percentage bender either.

Only were together due to injury and our genius HC never put them together again. Will forever be my favorite obscure Penguin line. Such a waste.

Point is Handshake Line is onto something

As obscure at the Eric Tangradi - Mike Comrie - Evgeni Malkin line that dominated the 2011 pre-season? While Comrie was getting prime Hillary Duff at home every night.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think we won those cups with pretty much zero physicality because more of those dinosaurs were around

But now 8 years later? I think theres very few of those dinosaurs. The guys that really can’t keep up are pretty much out of the game or at least not playing in big roles for teams in the 2nd round.

I think that's a very accurate observation, yes.

The Penguins were trying something out at the time that was pretty cutting edge versus the players and mentality that were still largely permeating the league. It's why as little as I think of Sullivan I at least have to give him credit for being the guy to step up and say "well what about THIS" at the absolute best possible time.

EDIT: and funny enough right after that JR went out and got his own dinosaur in JJ lol

 

[eXile3]

As obscure at the Eric-Tangradi - Mike Comrie - Evgeni Malkin line that dominated the 2011 pre-season? While Comrie was getting prime Hillary Duff at home every night.

Hillary Duff is still stacked. Am I allowed to say that?

Tangradi-Staal-Malkin had the best nickname “Staalingrad ”. Too bad Tangradi didn’t pan out at all.

 

[Peat]

Tbh the more I look into both Rossi and Lafreniere, the less I like the idea of trading for them. It's not that either of them are bad, it's that both guys look like complementary guys to great linemates with Lafreniere playing with Panarin and Rossi playing with Kaprizov. How much are those guys producing if they're playing with say McGroarty and Rakell on L2? I can see it working well, but trading a lot for that gamble does make me pretty uncomfortable.

If Crosby was like 34 instead of 38, I'd love to trade for Lafreniere to stick on Crosby's LW for the next 5+ years. But it's really unclear how many years Crosby has left, and paying a ton for a complementary top-6 guy when you don't have the drivers to play with those complementary guys feels inappropriate. They need to get those drivers before you start acquiring the complementary guys for them.

Does getting the complimentary guys slow down getting the drivers? The likelihood of getting the driver with the pick is low and probably equal or worse to further developing a Laf/Rossi into being the driver. The likelihood of being able to trade the prospect to get the driver is better, but still not amazing, and it's not like assets like Laf/Rossi can't be used in this way if a GM is willing to get creative, and we're also hopefully about to enter a period where the Penguins have a lot of promising flippable prospects due to all the picks coming up.

It feels like six of one, half a dozen of the other, and I don't see many comfortable gambles coming up here.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This team's bizarre fascination with trying to make Malkin NOT a center in his dead prime will always be a wonderful object lesson on why I roll my eyes at appeals to authority in this league.

 

[SEALBound]

Hillary Duff is still stacked. Am I allowed to say that?

Tangradi-Staal-Malkin had the best nickname “Staalingrad ”. Too bad Tangradi didn’t pan out at all.

She popped up on my Instagram and I about fell out of my chair. Mega babe now. I mean, she was always hot but now...wow. Somewhere in a dark room, Gordo is crying.

Yeah, I remember Staalingrad. JFC. In that "best moments of HFPens" thread should go that "Malkin to the wing, Staal to 2c" garbage. There were people willing to die on that hill and for what reason, I have no idea. There was one member here who firmly believed that the team was somehow grooming Staal to be the future 2C of the team and that they would trade Malkin out for a winger for Sid. And we're talking 2011-2012 timeframes here. I believe the winger this person wanted was Vanek. Straight swap.

Then you had the Tangradi bullshit. Dude looked like ass in every game he played but you'd get in here and people were saying moronic shit like "They need to staple Tangradi to Malkin's hip for 40 games (regardless of how he does) so we "know what we have in him""

The 2C Staal and Tangradi days here were brutal.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

She popped up on my Instagram and I about fell out of my chair. Mega babe now. I mean, she was always hot but now...wow. Somewhere in a dark room, Gordo is crying.

Yeah, I remember Staalingrad. JFC. In that "best moments of HFPens" should go that "Malkin to the wing, Staal to 2c" garbage. There were people willing to die on that hill and for what reason, I have no idea. There was one member here who firmly believed that the team was somehow grooming Staal to be the future 2C of the team and that they would trade Malkin out for a winger for Sid. And we're talking 2011-2012 timeframes here. I believe the winger this person wanted was Vanek. Straight swap.

Then you had the Tangradi bullshit. Dude looked like ass in every game he played but you'd get in there and people said moronic shit like "They need to staple Tangradi to Malkin's hip for 40 games (regardless of how he does) so we "know what we have in him""

The 2C Staal and Tangradi days here were brutal.

You aren't wrong. There was a not-small contingent here who were really, really committed to that whackadoo premise. Based on what, really? A like 2.5% difference in FO percentage? Dumbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbb.

Like I have some really dumb ideas - don't mistake me, here. I'm far from some hockey genius like our buddy Mark Madden. But I like to think I know a HOF franchise player when I see one as compared to a borderline career 3C that one GM (well... two GMs I guess) fell super hard for.

 

[SEALBound]

You aren't wrong. There was a not-small contingent here who were really, really committed to that whackadoo premise.

Like I have some really dumb ideas. But I like to think I know a HOF franchise player when I see one as compared to a borderline career 3C that one GM fell super hard for.

I remember a poll here and the choices were "CSK - Best 3rd line in the league" or "Staalkin". And it was like 10:1 for CSK and you could see who voted either way. The small, yet vocal minority that constantly pushed the Staalkin shit were the only ones that voted for it and they went nuts when they found out how stupid everyone thought they were.

Funny enough, Jordan got his wish in Carolina to be 2C and it never really worked out. He's been a consistent producer for sure...but at a "good quality 3C level". He's like the Bemstrom of 3Cs - Elite 3C...probably too elite of a 3C to be a 3C but a shit 2C.

Lol, he's a good 2.5C

 

[Empoleon8771]

Does getting the complimentary guys slow down getting the drivers? The likelihood of getting the driver with the pick is low and probably equal or worse to further developing a Laf/Rossi into being the driver. The likelihood of being able to trade the prospect to get the driver is better, but still not amazing, and it's not like assets like Laf/Rossi can't be used in this way if a GM is willing to get creative, and we're also hopefully about to enter a period where the Penguins have a lot of promising flippable prospects due to all the picks coming up.

It feels like six of one, half a dozen of the other, and I don't see many comfortable gambles coming up here.

I think the argument I'd make is that you're not just getting Lafreniere or Rossi for just a single 1st, you're going to be adding more on top of that.

If it's just the NYR 1st for Lafreniere or Rossi, I think you do it because the guy with that NYR is probably not as likely to be a driver as Lafreniere or Rossi are. But if it's something like the NYR 1st plus 2 2026 2nds, I may be wondering if you're better off with the 3 picks than just Rossi or Lafreniere.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I remember a poll here and the choices were "CSK - Best 3rd line in the league" or "Staalkin". And it was like 10:1 for CSK and you could see who voted either way. The small, yet vocal minority that constantly pushed the Staalkin shit were the only ones that voted for it and they went nuts when they found out how stupid everyone thought they were.

Funny enough, Jordan got his wish in Carolina to be 2C and it never really worked out. He's been a consistent producer for sure...but at a "good quality 3C level". He's like the Bemstrom of 3Cs - Elite 3C...probably too elite of a 3C to be a 3C but a shit 2C.

Lol, he's a good 2.5C

I've come to appreciate Staal more in the intervening years but I dunno... he is what he is... an elite 3C

There is no shame in that. Despite what he seems to think.

He just never did have the offensive chops to be a 2C at least in this league. Dude's a horse but you have to be able to drive the play at least a little especially at pivot on a scoring line and he just can't. But I mean... on the other side of the puck and when it comes to a grind/cycle game? Pretty top notch even now.

 

[GilbertSeinfeld]

View attachment 1036543

I still don't know how BriseBois wasn't fired after this trade blew up spectacularly.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I still don't know how BriseBois wasn't fired after this trade blew up spectacularly.

Hey man you gotta give to get when you have a shot at acquiring non-European Radim Zohorna

 

[SEALBound]

I think the argument I'd make is that you're not just getting Lafreniere or Rossi for just a single 1st, you're going to be adding more on top of that.

If it's just the NYR 1st for Lafreniere or Rossi, I think you do it because the guy with that NYR is probably not as likely to be a driver as Lafreniere or Rossi are. But if it's something like the NYR 1st plus 2 2026 2nds, I may be wondering if you're better off with the 3 picks than just Rossi or Lafreniere.

Yeah, I don't see a price tag on Lafreniere that makes sense for us. Unless it's a 1st+cap space that NYR want, I don't think we have what they would be wanting (nor should we be paying). That said I don't think they are looking to move him at all so...most of this is just off-season rando convos.

Rossi is another story but as you said, he's more of a passenger and complementary player. That may end up being okay if we end up with solid wingers. We currently have Rakell, Rust, McGroarty, and Koivunen. If we add Eklund this year and luck into someone like McKenna next draft (purely for discussion sake), then you might be okay with a complementary center like Rossi. But if you're looking for his to fill the hole of Malkin where wingers are just looking at him to drive the play, then no unless the price tag is "an offer we can't refuse".

McKenna-Rossi-Eklund could be a hell of a speedy, skill line. Might get murdered physically but McKenna and Eklund could certainly drive the play while Rossi takes draws.

 

[SEALBound]

I still don't know how BriseBois wasn't fired after this trade blew up spectacularly.

He was still riding that Hagel trade coattail.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think we won those cups with pretty much zero physicality because more of those dinosaurs were around

But now 8 years later? I think theres very few of those dinosaurs. The guys that really can’t keep up are pretty much out of the game or at least not playing in big roles for teams in the 2nd round.

The B2B teams definitely had physicality, especially in 2015-2016. They were just more disciplined about penalties, but they made a point about finishing checks and stepping up for hits.

They weren't the kind of physicality you get with beefy-interference-slow meatheads, but they were not fun teams to play against and it wasn't because they were just fast.

 

[Goalie_Bob]

I still don't know how BriseBois wasn't fired after this trade blew up spectacularly.

Probably because the Hagel trade has been such a huge success.

 

[Peat]

I think the argument I'd make is that you're not just getting Lafreniere or Rossi for just a single 1st, you're going to be adding more on top of that.

If it's just the NYR 1st for Lafreniere or Rossi, I think you do it because the guy with that NYR is probably not as likely to be a driver as Lafreniere or Rossi are. But if it's something like the NYR 1st plus 2 2026 2nds, I may be wondering if you're better off with the 3 picks than just Rossi or Lafreniere.

Yeah that's a fair point. Everybody said yes to the original Laf for 1st because it was a no brainer and if it's a no brainer, it's not happening. Like I think 11OA or so is what Montreal paid for Kirby Dach. You're probably not getting teams to agree that those guys are only as good as Kirby Dach.

In general, I think given what Dubas has said, trying to find a 22-23 year old guy with skills and pedigree who hasn't put it together is the best thing they can do with the pick. But it all comes down to price and individual.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah that's a fair point. Everybody said yes to the original Laf for 1st because it was a no brainer and if it's a no brainer, it's not happening. Like I think 11OA or so is what Montreal paid for Kirby Dach. You're probably not getting teams to agree that those guys are only as good as Kirby Dach.

In general, I think given what Dubas has said, trying to find a 22-23 year old guy with skills and pedigree who hasn't put it together is the best thing they can do with the pick. But it all comes down to price and individual.

To be fair, that trade also included the Islanders paying pick #11 for Romanov, which I would do if that sort of opportunity became available. But yeah, Rossi and Lafreniere are above the range they could get for just the Rangers 1st.

I think guys like Rossi, Lafreniere and Byram (I think he's another guy who could be attainable) would probably cost a similar package to what Calgary paid for Dougie Hamilton back in the day, which was pick #15 and 2 2nds. So yeah, it's probably the NYR 1st plus 2 2026 2nds for any of those guys.

Which tbh, if the Rangers give up pick #12 this year, I'd probably be talking to Buffalo to see if #12 this year, a 2026 2nd and a 2027 2nd for Byram would be enough for them. Byram feels like one of those guys that could become a driver, albeit from defense rather than forwards.

 

[Khelandros]

I still don't know how BriseBois wasn't fired after this trade blew up spectacularly.

Same reason Sullivan had a lifetime contract.

 

[Gurglesons]

I still don't know how BriseBois wasn't fired after this trade blew up spectacularly.

Why would he be fired?

Jeannot was a 20 goal scorer that was on a cheap contract. They also got picks back for him.

Sometimes you lose trades. That trade had no real implications on the team and given what we know now about Cal Foote who knows what the incentive was to get him off the team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

As an expansion on that Rossi/Byram talk, I think I'd put up a caveat on the trade idea: I would be coupling any sort of young RFA addition with selling another player to recover some of those picks. Like if you're trading a 1st and 2 2nds for Byram, I'm 100% trading Karlsson to recover some of those picks. If you're doing that deal with Rossi, Lafreniere or Peterka, I'm trading Rakell to recover some picks.

I also think both of those moves would be obvious moves just from a roster composition point of view. If you add Byram, you're not going to want to pair him with Karlsson. Just like if you acquire Rossi, you'd probably want to run with McGroarty-Rossi-Malkin as your L2 (or bump Malkin to L1) so you don't have a spot for Rakell (or one of Rust or Rakell) anyway.

Both a top-4 LD and a top-6 C are a huge need for the Penguins, so I wouldn't really have an issue if they did something like the NYR 1st, a 2026 2nd and a 2027 2nd for Rossi or Byram. That said, it's also pricey enough that I wouldn't be all that broken up if Buffalo and Minnesota would say no to that as well.