Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXVI: End of season wrap up

[Gurglesons]

Remember when we got Sam Poulin in the 2021 draft.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

SEAL is the one dude that makes me side with Gurgs every time. Do you know how hard that is to do?!? Even Gurglesons doesn’t agree with himself

 

[SEALBound]

Remember when we got Sam Poulin in the 2021 draft.

It was Broz taken right after Knies, not Poulin. That was mistake on my part but it makes the point I made even MORE valid.

 

[Gurglesons]

To be honest, I don't think there really is any need for us to do much of anything this summer with our roster.

Literally every team besides us will be trying to improve.

The only other teams I can see potentially trying to get worse are Boston and NYI.

San Jose, Chicago, Seattle, Nashville will all try to be getting better.

 

[SEALBound]

SEAL is the one dude that makes me side with Gurgs every time. Do you know how hard that is to do?!? Even Gurglesons doesn’t agree with himself

Don't be so hard on yourself. You have Gurgs have about the same track record so it stands to reason that you gravitate towards him.

 

[SomeDude]

Tampa had Hedman and Stamkos on the roster, but those teams were run through Kucherov and Point with Vasilevsky doing his thing in net. Kucherov and Point weren't even first round picks.

Hedman was the 2020 Conn Smythe winner.

 

[Gurglesons]

It was Broz taken right after Knies, not Poulin. That was mistake on my part but it makes the point I made even MORE valid.

McKenna isn't a Crosby level prospect it's just an extremely off comparison.

Maybe you could argue he is a Malkin level prospect at this time.

Our focus that year was to get Ovechkin not Malkin though.

I don't see Ovechkin in McKenna.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Not to the extent the Penguins and Blackhawks did it.

Tampa's 3-year run had Stamkos and Hedman, but Kucherov, Point, Killorn, Palat, Cirelli, Coleman, and Gourde were all key players. None were first round picks. Gourde was undrafted. Kucherov, who the team was centered around by that point, was 58th overall and Point was 79th overall.

Vasilevsky, the dominant goalie in the NHL for much of the last decade, was 19th overall.

Vegas has never had a top five pick. It utilized other methods - yes, the expansion draft helped, but they had to scout and identify those players. More importantly, it utilized assets to acquire key players.

Eichel, Stone, Stephenson, and Barbashev were acquired via trade. Marchessault was undrafted and Vegas was his fifth team. Karlsson was an afterthought. Smith was on his fourth team. Logan Thompson was undrafted. Adin Hill was 76th overall and on his third team.

Florida went a similar route. Barkov is the only top five pick the Panthers actually drafted. Everyone else was acquired in some fashion.

The idea that you have to draft all of your top end talent yourself in a succession of drafts is outdated. You need excellent talent, but acquiring it via trade/free agency or developing later picks into top talent (of which Tampa has done an excellent job) is the way it's being done now.

Huberdeau was #3 OA whom they sent for #7 OA Tkachuk.

There's definitely give and take, Like the Pens had to trade for every worthwhile winger outside of Jake. But they haven't won shit since letting guys go. Their depth just sank and sank.

The job to a successful team is purely adding depth.

 

[Ulf5]

It's just crazy to me to throw around chasing Marner as a team that was bottom 4 at points this season, and is gonna bottom out entirely in two years once Sid retires--if not before then, if Sid takes a step back due to age/injury.

What's a 30 year old Marner matter to a team that's gonna be in the Pens' position in two years?

I say all this from the standpoint of someone who really likes Marner, and thinks it's insane that Leafs fans and that organization marches him to the gallows first whenever anything goes wrong. He's a hell of a player, but it'd be f***ing stupid for a team like the Preds to throw the bank at Marner, it's just as dumb for the Pens--maybe even more dumb.

A 30 year old Marner should get quite a haul in 2 years with a couple more cap raises. If he stays healthy and doesn't fall off and cliff. Remember he can no longer be Sullied.

 

[Peat]

Yeah I’m a big believer that Hubes is part of that

I’ve said it before but i don’t know if stripping it down fully works. I think you need to hit home runs on some high picks then hit the gas pedal. These teams are too bad for too long imo.

Basically kinda classic accumulation of assets, picks but only for 2-3 years and not all the way to ground, make sure to hit on some draft picks… then go VGK/Florida mode.

The struggles that Edmonton and Buffalo have had in terms of turning their high draft picks into success should scare the whey out of anyone considering stripping it all the way down (even if Edmonton did finally manage to at least become respectable). NJD are another team that got all the high draft picks you're meant to have and can't get anything much to show for it. Four years of straight top 10 picks in Vancouver - and actually hitting on the 1C and 1D - has merely resulted in hilarity. Detroit are another example.

Really, if you're looking for recent teams that spent some prolonged time looking like an anal prolapse and did well for it, it's Colorado and... maybe the Sens are about to do it? The Rangers bounced back quick on their reload, but with little thanks to their high draft picks which is why they seem set to bounce back down. Okay, and yeah, finally the Oilers. Well done on being a perennial playoff team after *checks* a top 10 pick (with 4 1OAs) in every draft bar two between 2007 and 2019. Congrats on finally lucking into too good to fail players.

At this point I'd say there's no clear best way, you just have to be smarter and luckier than everyone else.

I'm pretty sure the Pens will stumble into this territory soon enough (well... they have). Here's hoping for some luck and smarts, and a swift pull out of the descent. But considering they stumbled into it as is, do they really need to strip it all the way down?

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I just think it's asinine to put the cart before the horse by being worried about surrounding the foundational pieces with talent before this team even has the foundational pieces in place. This team's not in NYC, they're not gonna pull a Panarin by virtue of simply existing in a cool place to live for a multimillionaire. Even with Panarin, the Rangers have f***all to show for it and now they're teetering on the edge of falling off a cliff as their core ages out and they have zero depth and barely more than the Pens in terms of an overall prospect cupboard.

The Pens are gonna need to tank for a handful of years, try and land those 1st/2nd/3rd overall picks, actually hit on those picks (as well as other picks for supporting cast guys), then worry about the key additions via trade or FA later. I don't really see an alternative for a team like the Pens.

 

[SEALBound]

McKenna isn't a Crosby level prospect it's just an extremely off comparison.

Maybe you could argue he is a Malkin level prospect at this time.

Our focus that year was to get Ovechkin not Malkin though.

I don't see Ovechkin in McKenna.

Literally never said that.

The comparison I made was that McKenna is a high-quality, franchise-level player that you can build off of, just like Sid/Geno were in 04/05 when we got them. I wasn't making a direct play style and abilities comparison between them, but you know that, I think. Sometimes it's hard to tell if you're being intentionally disingenuous or willfully ignorant.

 

[Jared Grayden]

A 30 year old Marner should get quite a haul in 2 years with a couple more cap raises. If he stays healthy and doesn't fall off and cliff. Remember he can no longer be Sullied.

Marner just exercised his NMC at the deadline and would definitely be getting a NMC for most if not all the contract. Signing him and expecting him to waive is asking for a bad situation.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

A 30 year old Marner should get quite a haul in 2 years with a couple more cap raises. If he stays healthy and doesn't fall off and cliff. Remember he can no longer be Sullied.

Why are you signing the guy if your plan a couple years down the road is to trade him anyway? Makes no sense. Sid+Marner just gets you drafting like 16th overall until Sid retires, then we're right back here talking about how much Dubas has to retain on Marner's $14M AAV, and where Marner would pick to end up with his full NMC. You're not getting a haul for Marner imo, even with the cap skyrocketing, because he'll have full control and will absolutely want to contend after a decade in Toronto and a dying Pittsburgh franchise.

 

[SomeDude]

A 30 year old Marner should get quite a haul in 2 years with a couple more cap raises. If he stays healthy and doesn't fall off and cliff. Remember he can no longer be Sullied.

I just don't see that. We would have to pay him the most or match the most to get him here. He would have a full NMC which means he would have 100% say on where he goes. His points would drop here playing with less talent. If he actually somehow helped turn things around here, we wouldn't trade him so that means the team still would suck with him. Teams are going to spend that cap as fast as they gain in. There's going to be a lot of teams with room this summer, I'm not so sure moving forward. They could have massive deals kicking in for young guys at that point.

How often do we see UFA's traded for huge returns fairly early into long term contracts? Usually them being traded at that point means things aren't going well and they are swapped for another contract or sold off for cheap to a team willing to gamble on a rebound.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Don't be so hard on yourself. You have Gurgs have about the same track record so it stands to reason that you gravitate towards him.

Besides being an idiot… which is dead on btw.

idek what my track record is? Said I’d do Yager for McG before it happened. I wanted were Jensen in 2019 at the TDL. Bennett in 2021. Would’ve drafted Nick Robertson instead of Poulin. Gulyayev instead of Yager. And I said I wanted McG to fall to us in 2022.

Had a banger 3way proposal back in the day between NYR-CBJ-TBL too.

Can’t remember much else but I’m sure it’s there. Could be worse.

 

[SEALBound]

Besides being an idiot… which is dead on btw.

idek what my track record is? Said I’d do Yager for McG before it happened. I wanted were Jensen in 2019 at the TDL. Bennett in 2021. Would’ve drafted Nick Robertson instead of Poulin. Gulyayev instead of Yager. And I said I wanted McG to fall to us in 2022.

Had a banger 3way proposal back in the day between NYR-CBJ-TBL too.

Can’t remember much else but I’m sure it’s there. Could be worse.

I have no idea what you've even trying to say here but...I'm happy for you. Or I'm sorry that happened.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Had a banger 3way

Settle down.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I have no idea what you've even trying to say here but...I'm happy for you. Or I'm sorry that happened.

in simpler terms what is this trash “track record” I have you speak of?

Settle down.

I put that on a tee huh

 

[HandshakeLine]

Huberdeau was #3 OA whom they sent for #7 OA Tkachuk.

There's definitely give and take, Like the Pens had to trade for every worthwhile winger outside of Jake. But they haven't won shit since letting guys go. Their depth just sank and sank.

The job to a successful team is purely adding depth.

Yeah, even if you trade for that core piece from somewhere else, you still have to have something worth trading.

 

[SomeDude]

Yeah, even if you trade for that core piece from somewhere else, you still have to have something worth trading.

Which brings me to my next point...we're getting Laffy for Rust after Sully is officially hired, right?

 

[HandshakeLine]

The struggles that Edmonton and Buffalo have had in terms of turning their high draft picks into success should scare the whey out of anyone considering stripping it all the way down (even if Edmonton did finally manage to at least become respectable). NJD are another team that got all the high draft picks you're meant to have and can't get anything much to show for it. Four years of straight top 10 picks in Vancouver - and actually hitting on the 1C and 1D - has merely resulted in hilarity. Detroit are another example.

Really, if you're looking for recent teams that spent some prolonged time looking like an anal prolapse and did well for it, it's Colorado and... maybe the Sens are about to do it? The Rangers bounced back quick on their reload, but with little thanks to their high draft picks which is why they seem set to bounce back down. Okay, and yeah, finally the Oilers. Well done on being a perennial playoff team after *checks* a top 10 pick (with 4 1OAs) in every draft bar two between 2007 and 2019. Congrats on finally lucking into too good to fail players.

At this point I'd say there's no clear best way, you just have to be smarter and luckier than everyone else.

I'm pretty sure the Pens will stumble into this territory soon enough (well... they have). Here's hoping for some luck and smarts, and a swift pull out of the descent. But considering they stumbled into it as is, do they really need to strip it all the way down?

I think the problems are different but maybe stem from the same inability to cut bait and properly identify which assets worth trading and which are worth holding onto.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Which brings me to my next point...we're getting Laffy for Rust after Sully is officially hired, right?

Othmann + 1st in 2027

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Othmann + 1st in 2027

Ok here’s a positive one for you. No TJ winning a Vezina….would be hilarious to get 2 high firsts in both 26 and 27 from NYR and Sully bumbling around with Rust

 

[SomeDude]

The struggles that Edmonton and Buffalo have had in terms of turning their high draft picks into success should scare the whey out of anyone considering stripping it all the way down

It only scares me in the sense that I think Kyle Dubas and FSG are capable of being as stupid as Edmonton and Buffalo.

Otherwise, a lot of their issues were completely self created and easy to avoid by not signing crappy guys to contracts, trading away your good players (Eichel and ROR in Buffalo) to keep crappier ones, or refusing to fill glaring holes.