Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXVI: End of season wrap up

[Gurglesons]

Yeah, but talk about an exceptional case. We'll never have an expansion draft to benefit from.

Florida only had 4 drafted players on their championship squad.

Barkov, Lundell, Ekblad, and Kulikov (who came back).

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

No team has tanked like this successfully essentially since us, Chicago, and LA did.

Florida, Tampa, Colorado did get high draft picks, but largely were attempting to be competitive teams for the majority of the years where they got those high draft picks.

There's no reason a team with a core of three 38-39 year olds and essentially nil as far as a prospect pool goes shouldn't tank. I don't even think there's a genuine discussion to be had here tbh.

I don't doubt the capabilities of McKenna, it's just in order to have a good chance at him you have to finish dead last and Dubas isn't going to gut the roster enough to make that happen.

Even picking at #2 the chances are only like 14%. That's garbage. You need to be dead last to have a good chance (25%). We won't be.

But we could (and *should*) be, and that's the point. You remove Rakell at the TDL and there's a real good shot this team's drafting 4th overall. You remove Rakell and EK this summer and Rust at the TDL next year, and this team's got the inside track on 1st overall imo. We don't know what Dubas is going to do. He talked up Jake and Petts too before he moved them.

Chicago and San Jose are terrible, nobody's disputing that. This team, minus those three guys, is just as bad imo. I kind of expect SJ to jump up a few spots in the standings next season as Celebrini, Smith, Eklund and now Dickinson continue to improve. Especially if they can lure some guys in FA.

Besides, I still have yet to hear a compelling argument to the contrary when it comes to cutting away the fat and settling in for the difficult but necessary process of building through the draft. This team's missed three years in a row now. They're a one line team propped up by a soon to be 38 year old Sid and that's it. What exactly is the risk and/or sacrifice?

Tampa has a top ten center in Brayden Point, a selke finalist in Cirelli and in their cup wins had Yanni Gourde who is a 50+ pt guy at 3C.

Kuch was an impactful part of that team, but to say they build the squad around him is just patently false IMO.

Nobody's saying McKenna is the finish line. Even if this team miraculously ends up with both McKenna and Dupont in the next two drafts, they obviously still need to fill out the roster beyond that with impact players. But being in the best possible spot to have those two to build around for the next 20 years should be the goal. It's a no-brainer imo.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

Neat, Pensburgh still exists. Anyhow.

What the heck happened to that place?
Used to be funny and off the wall stuff, but now it's old and tired. Oh wait, I just described myself

 

[Peat]

Florida only had 4 drafted players on their championship squad.

Barkov, Lundell, Ekblad, and Kulikov (who came back).

And Barkov's pretty much the only guy who is essential to the process and where it'd be silly tough to get a player like him without drafting him.

You can argue that the high drafted piece in Huberdeau was very important in getting Tkachuk but even so, Florida remain the poster child for the tank isn't all.

 

[Gurglesons]

Nobody's saying McKenna is the finish line. Even if this team miraculously ends up with both McKenna and Dupont in the next two drafts, they obviously still need to fill out the roster beyond that with impact players. But being in the best possible spot to have those two to build around for the next 20 years should be the goal. It's a no-brainer imo.

Well you've been shouting that we need to tank since you joined in like 2019 so that's not surprising.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Do they not acquire high end talent? Most often from early 1st rounds in drafts?

Not to the extent the Penguins and Blackhawks did it.

Tampa's 3-year run had Stamkos and Hedman, but Kucherov, Point, Killorn, Palat, Cirelli, Coleman, and Gourde were all key players. None were first round picks. Gourde was undrafted. Kucherov, who the team was centered around by that point, was 58th overall and Point was 79th overall.

Vasilevsky, the dominant goalie in the NHL for much of the last decade, was 19th overall.

Vegas has never had a top five pick. It utilized other methods - yes, the expansion draft helped, but they had to scout and identify those players. More importantly, it utilized assets to acquire key players.

Eichel, Stone, Stephenson, and Barbashev were acquired via trade. Marchessault was undrafted and Vegas was his fifth team. Karlsson was an afterthought. Smith was on his fourth team. Logan Thompson was undrafted. Adin Hill was 76th overall and on his third team.

Florida went a similar route. Barkov is the only top five pick the Panthers actually drafted. Everyone else was acquired in some fashion.

The idea that you have to draft all of your top end talent yourself in a succession of drafts is outdated. You need excellent talent, but acquiring it via trade/free agency or developing later picks into top talent (of which Tampa has done an excellent job) is the way it's being done now.

 

[Gurglesons]

And Barkov's pretty much the only guy who is essential to the process and where it'd be silly tough to get a player like him without drafting him.

You can argue that the high drafted piece in Huberdeau was very important in getting Tkachuk but even so, Florida remain the poster child for the tank isn't all.

I think the reality of the NHL is drafting is no longer the sure fire way to build a team because of the parity of skill in the league.

The Oilers have McDavid and Draisaitl which you could argue is a better duo than Sid and Malkin and they've made one Cup final.

That isn't saying that you don't need to act top talent, but the idea that you can just get a McKenna and you suddenly can build a team around them just doesn't seem to have the legitimacy it did ten to fifteen years ago.

You used to only be able to get highly skilled players to drive your team in the top end of the draft. That is no longer the case.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Well you've been shouting that we need to tank since you joined in like 2019 so that's not surprising.

I've been shouting for this team to fire their coach and pick a lane since 2019, and I haven't been wrong yet. But maybe they should trade an entire draft class to land Jeannot.

 

[SomeDude]

But it's not how modern championship teams or most contenders are built.

While it is true that it’s not a guaranteed way to build a contender, it is the one with the highest odds, IMO. You still have to do a good job at building around them.

The last 10 winners, 6 of them had either their best player or one of there top players as a home grown top 2 pick.

Chicago with Kane/Toews
Us x2
Caps and Ovi
Tampa x2 with Hedman and Stamkos

One of them stole one of those types of players away from a dumb franchise in Buffalo with Vegas and Eichel.

That leaves Florida and St Louis.

 

[Gurglesons]

While it is true that it’s not a guaranteed way to build a contender, it is the one with the highest odds, IMO. You still have to do a good job at building around them.

The last 10 winners, 6 of them had either their best player or one of there top players as a home grown top 2 pick.

Chicago with Kane/Toews
Us x2
Caps and Ovi
Tampa x2 with Hedman and Stamkos

One of them stole one of those types of players away from a dumb franchise in Buffalo with Vegas and Eichel.

That leaves Florida and St Louis.

Tampa's first cup winner didn't have Stamkos for the majority of the run. The second time he was like the 5th or 6th most important forward.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

lol Vegas had like five billion built-in draft picks from being allowed to poach the rest of the league.

But it had to identify the right talent and utilize it properly.

No one thought William Karlsson was much of anything. Reilly Smith had been moved multiple times. Jonathan Marchessault was in his fifth organization.

Team construction isn't just scouting 17-19 year olds and drafting them with top five picks. It's identifying players late in drafts and developing them, just like the Penguins did with Letang, Rust, Guentzel, Murray, etc.

It's identifying established pros who thrive in your system, just like Bonino and Hagelin did on the Cup teams.

Teams have assets all the time. Success comes from using them right.

 

[SomeDude]

Tampa's first cup winner didn't have Stamkos for the majority of the run. The second time he was like the 5th or 6th most important forward.

And they had Hedman, a 2nd overall who they acquired by tanking.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think the reality of the NHL is drafting is no longer the sure fire way to build a team because of the parity of skill in the league.

The Oilers have McDavid and Draisaitl which you could argue is a better duo than Sid and Malkin and they've made one Cup final.

That isn't saying that you don't need to act top talent, but the idea that you can just get a McKenna and you suddenly can build a team around them just doesn't seem to have the legitimacy it did ten to fifteen years ago.

You used to only be able to get highly skilled players to drive your team in the top end of the draft. That is no longer the case.

Not to the extent the Penguins and Blackhawks did it.

Tampa's 3-year run had Stamkos and Hedman, but Kucherov, Point, Killorn, Palat, Cirelli, Coleman, and Gourde were all key players. None were first round picks. Gourde was undrafted. Kucherov, who the team was centered around by that point, was 58th overall and Point was 79th overall.

Vasilevsky, the dominant goalie in the NHL for much of the last decade, was 19th overall.

Vegas has never had a top five pick. It utilized other methods - yes, the expansion draft helped, but they had to scout and identify those players. More importantly, it utilized assets to acquire key players.

Eichel, Stone, Stephenson, and Barbashev were acquired via trade. Marchessault was undrafted and Vegas was his fifth team. Karlsson was an afterthought. Smith was on his fourth team. Logan Thompson was undrafted. Adin Hill was 76th overall and on his third team.

Florida went a similar route. Barkov is the only top five pick the Panthers actually drafted. Everyone else was acquired in some fashion.

The idea that you have to draft all of your top end talent yourself in a succession of drafts is outdated. You need excellent talent, but acquiring it via trade/free agency or developing later picks into top talent (of which Tampa has done an excellent job) is the way it's being done now.

I think we're all kind of saying the same things though. I'm not saying you need to only acquire 1OA or 2OA picks. But teams need at least a few of these elite players and the reality is, unless you're the beneficiary of a very generous expansion draft, there aren't really opportunities to acquire those assets without bottoming out first.

Even if you acquire your elite talent through trade, you still need those trade chips (e.g. prospects) to dangle.

What I'm saying is that I agree that you don't need to rebuild by getting 1OAs for sure. I'm just not sure how you can make that rebuild work if you don't get some sort of franchise cornerstone to build around and the draft remains by far the best tool to acquire that piece. Not foolproof, of course, but the best option.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

While it is true that it’s not a guaranteed way to build a contender, it is the one with the highest odds, IMO. You still have to do a good job at building around them.

The last 10 winners, 6 of them had either their best player or one of there top players as a home grown top 2 pick.

Chicago with Kane/Toews
Us x2
Caps and Ovi
Tampa x2 with Hedman and Stamkos

One of them stole one of those types of players away from a dumb franchise in Buffalo with Vegas and Eichel.

That leaves Florida and St Louis.

Tampa had Hedman and Stamkos on the roster, but those teams were run through Kucherov and Point with Vasilevsky doing his thing in net. Kucherov and Point weren't even first round picks.

 

[SEALBound]

Nobody's saying McKenna is the finish line. Even if this team miraculously ends up with both McKenna and Dupont in the next two drafts, they obviously still need to fill out the roster beyond that with impact players. But being in the best possible spot to have those two to build around for the next 20 years should be the goal. It's a no-brainer imo.

McKenna is like getting getting Malkin/Sid in 04/05. From 2000 to 2003, they got solid support pieces. Then they got the franchise pieces three years in a row and then built out from there. Problem is, we do need to get to 1/2ov to get those franchise pieces. A team of McGroartys (though I do like him), ain't gonna win a cup just like a team of Ryan Whitneys or Colby Armstrongs weren't gonna win a cup.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

And Barkov's pretty much the only guy who is essential to the process and where it'd be silly tough to get a player like him without drafting him.

You can argue that the high drafted piece in Huberdeau was very important in getting Tkachuk but even so, Florida remain the poster child for the tank isn't all.

Yeah I’m a big believer that Hubes is part of that

I’ve said it before but i don’t know if stripping it down fully works. I think you need to hit home runs on some high picks then hit the gas pedal. These teams are too bad for too long imo.

Basically kinda classic accumulation of assets, picks but only for 2-3 years and not all the way to ground, make sure to hit on some draft picks… then go VGK/Florida mode.

 

[Gurglesons]

Tampa had Hedman and Stamkos on the roster, but those teams were run through Kucherov and Point with Vasilevsky doing his thing in net. Kucherov and Point weren't even first round picks.

Hedman was the franchise player.

 

[Gurglesons]

McKenna is like getting getting Malkin/Sid in 04/05. From 2000 to 2003, they got solid support pieces. Then they got the franchise pieces three years in a row and then built out from there. Problem is, we do need to get to 1/2ov to get those franchise pieces. A team of McGroartys (though I do like him), ain't gonna win a cup just like a team of Ryan Whitneys or Colby Armstrongs weren't gonna win a cup.

No, he isn't.

He isn't a generational / franchise center.

 

[eXile3]

Tampa had Hedman and Stamkos on the roster, but those teams were run through Kucherov and Point with Vasilevsky doing his thing in net. Kucherov and Point weren't even first round picks.

Tampa doesn’t win either of those cups without Hedman.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think we're all kind of saying the same things though. I'm not saying you need to only acquire 1OA or 2OA picks. But teams need at least a few of these elite players and the reality is, unless you're the beneficiary of a very generous expansion draft, there aren't really opportunities to acquire those assets without bottoming out first.

Even if you acquire your elite talent through trade, you still need those trade chips (e.g. prospects) to dangle.

What I'm saying is that I agree that you don't need to rebuild by getting 1OAs for sure. I'm just not sure how you can make that rebuild work if you don't get some sort of franchise cornerstone to build around and the draft remains by far the best tool to acquire that piece. Not foolproof, of course, but the best option.

Well, that's the idea behind signing a Marner right?

I guess my point is more so built around the idea you just blow everything up for McKenna next year.

 

[eXile3]

No, he isn't.

He isn't a generational / franchise center.

He isn’t even a center.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yeah I’m a big believer that Hubes is part of that

I’ve said it before but i don’t know if stripping it down fully works. I think you need to hit home runs on some high picks then hit the gas pedal. These teams are too bad for too long imo.

Basically kinda classic accumulation of assets, picks but only for 2-3 years and not all the way to ground, make sure to hit on some draft picks… then go VGK/Florida mode.

Which makes this year such a misstep.

If we get a top 5 draft pick in this draft you have a potential starting point.

 

[Jared Grayden]

Florida only had 4 drafted players on their championship squad.

Barkov, Lundell, Ekblad, and Kulikov (who came back).

True. But they also traded homegrown Weegar and Huberdeau (#3 overall in 2011) for Tkachuk.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Which makes this year such a misstep.

If we get a top 5 draft pick in this draft you have a potential starting point.

Agree. Just gotta hope they crush the pick.

 

[SEALBound]

No, he isn't.

He isn't a generational / franchise center.