Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXVI: End of season wrap up

[Gurglesons]

Maybe. Or maybe he’s good at his job and just doesn’t tell anyone his plans besides like 3 people.

Who tf knows. Time will tell.

He's been an NHL GM for a decade and has one won playoff round. I guess in the world of Mike Sullivan worship that means he's good at his job.

Time will tell if Mike Sullivan is a good coach too, right?

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

He's been an NHL GM for a decade and has one won playoff round. I guess in the world of Mike Sullivan worship that means he's good at his job.

The dube has more series wins than the Caps since he’s become a GM…

but seriously— say you’re correct and he’s the WOAT GM. Ever. what do you want me to do. Pee my pants and yell?

 

[Gurglesons]

The dube has more series wins that the Caps since he’s become a GM…

but seriously— what do you want me to do. Pee my pants and yell?

Nobody is yelling. We are on a message board bullshitting about the Penguins.

Why else should we do?

Do you want everyone to stop posting for 3 years and then we can actively address what Dubas has done right or wrong?

When am I able to comment accurately on Dubas' moves?

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Nobody is yelling. We are on a message board bullshitting about the Penguins.

Why else should we do?

Do you want everyone to stop posting for 3 years and then we can actively address what Dubas has done right or wrong?

When am I able to comment accurately on Dubas' moves?

This started because I actively addressed a roster management decision. You replied to me. and it devolved into “Dubas has won 1 series”

So don’t give me that.

 

[Gurglesons]

This started because I actively addressed a roster management decision. You replied to me. and it devolved into “Dubas has won 1 series”

So don’t give me that.

Fair enough.

 

[The Old Master]

Or, you can also "improve the team" long-term by taking on a 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, and a 5th...and then getting another 3rd at the TDL by weaponizing capspace and cashing in on teams that are cap crunched.

There's not one right or one wrong way to do things.

but the chance of replacing your core won't happen. unless you get very, very, very lucky

 

[OtherThingsILike]

If the goal is to be a contender, why do we care if the team flails into the bottom of the league following a Sid or Malkin injury?

If we're going to become a contender, we'll need to be able to develop prospects. Maybe Koivunen and McGroarty aren't the players who will become important pieces on a winning team, but we will need to start somewhere. Similar to how the 2009 Cup-winning team didn't begin with drafting Crosby, Malkin, and Staal; they were the most of the final pieces put into place.

This seems like an extreme over exaggeration.

Koivunen wil be 22 heading into next season. McGroarty is 21.

These aren't 18-19 year olds.

Most players who become anything in the NHL play their first full seasons at 21 and 22. Being a teenager in the NHL is rare.

 

[SEALBound]

Then don't use "Washington had cap space" as an excuse for why Washington is above us.

PIT has had lots of cap space the last two off seasons and has used it badly to improve the team.

I didn't. Certainly cap space to make the moves and signings they did was needed but I was speaking more about the openings on the roster that allowed them to make such moves. Backstrom on LTIR allows Strome a larger role and Kuzy out gives rise to the need and willingness to take the risk on PLD.

If Malkin and Letang fall down the stairs tomorrow and they are out forever, it gives us a top 4 RD slot and a 2C slot. If you trade for guys like Rossi and Byram, they step into those roles. While it's possible they could technically do that now, I have doubts that it goes that smooth.

Washington is above us because they scored big on a couple draft picks 5-6 years ago, Strome blossomed after being disregarded by several teams, and they've made some shrude trades - like who didn't love the Chychrun trade? I thought that was uber smart. Then the risky PLD trade worked out in their favor.

Again, it's not one thing. It's a culmination of things and injuries that open up major roles and cap space are certainly one of them, just like it was for us in 2016.

but the chance of replacing your core won't happen. unless you get very, very, very lucky

Exactly. You might be able to swing a solid trade but those are rare. To get a new core, we need to be BAD and get some high picks.

 

[Gurglesons]

If we're going to become a contender, we'll need to be able to develop prospects. Maybe Koivunen and McGroarty aren't the players who will become important pieces on a winning team, but we will need to start somewhere. Similar to how the 2009 Cup-winning team didn't begin with drafting Crosby, Malkin, and Staal; they were the most of the final pieces put into place.

I'm not sure where them playing on a team stacked with bad vets or Rakell / Rust effects that.

Most players who become anything in the NHL play their first full seasons at 21 and 22. Being a teenager in the NHL is rare.

Yes. So, Koivunen and McGroarty are at the age where they start to establish themselves as NHLers. On bad teams, on good teams, etc. I don't see the issue with Tomasino and Heinen being their line mates versus Rust and Rakell.

I also don't think it's a big issue if McGroarty and Koivunen bounce between the AHL and NHL next year either to be honest.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

I'm not sure where them playing on a team stacked with bad vets or Rakell / Rust effects that.

Yes. So, Koivunen and McGroarty are at the age where they start to establish themselves as NHLers. On bad teams, on good teams, etc. I don't see the issue with Tomasino and Heinen being their line mates versus Rust and Rakell.

I suppose it depends on which aspects of player development someone thinks are most important. There are certainly things that Tomasino or Heinen could teach, so I don't want to discount their expertise.

Do you think Crosby is a better player to help develop the kids than [Average Bad Veteran Center]? If so, why?

 

[Gurglesons]

I suppose it depends on which aspects of player development someone thinks are most important. There are certainly things that Tomasino or Heinen could teach, so I don't want to discount their expertise.

Do you think Crosby is a better player to help develop the kids than [Average Bad Veteran Center]? If so, why?

If Crosby wasn't a franchise legend, I would be arguing for exit if the plan is "to be a "contender".

Whatever that means.

Given our current situation, my focus if I were GM would be on getting the Penguins into the playoffs next year.

I think franchise direction is more important than the players on the ice and why we've been successful until recently.

 

[eXile3]

I'm not sure where them playing on a team stacked with bad vets or Rakell / Rust effects that.




Yes. So, Koivunen and McGroarty are at the age where they start to establish themselves as NHLers. On bad teams, on good teams, etc. I don't see the issue with Tomasino and Heinen being their line mates versus Rust and Rakell.

I also don't think it's a big issue if McGroarty and Koivunen bounce between the AHL and NHL next year either to be honest.

I think McGroaty in particular it wouldn’t hurt to get a little more time in the AHL. I know you think he’s destined to be a 3rd liner but a lot of what I saw he was good at finding open ice, and finding other players in open ice, but his puck control was a mess.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think McGroaty in particular it wouldn’t hurt to get a little more time in the AHL. I know you think he’s destined to be a 3rd liner but a lot of what I saw he was good at finding open ice, and finding other players in open ice, but his puck control was a mess.

I think McGroarty is one of those players who will develop regardless of where we put him. He's got NHL size, NHL IQ, and compete off the charts.

I don't really care where he goes, but I also think he's someone that and I say this rarely could be damaged if we play the flip flop thing with him too much. His game is largely predicated on his emotion and if we start making him question that, it could be a spiral.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

If Crosby wasn't a franchise legend, I would be arguing for exit if the plan is "to be a "contender".

Whatever that means.

Given our current situation, my focus if I were GM would be on getting the Penguins into the playoffs next year.

I think franchise direction is more important than the players on the ice and why we've been successful until recently.

Oh, I see. So then, according to what you perceive a rebuilding plan to be, very few of the players on the team now would be on the team when we're starting to make moves to try to compete.
I suppose that's fair; that plan does work sometimes.

 

[eXile3]

Timmins mentioned in the SA case against WJC as a witness. Not sure what that means. Details are pretty gross.

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh, I see. So then, according to what you perceive a rebuilding plan to be, very few of the players on the team now would be on the team when we're starting to make moves to try to compete.
I suppose that's fair; that plan does work sometimes.

I think the Penguins have three pathes.

# 1. Tear Down Rebuild: I don't think they can do this because they are unwilling (rightfully so) and do not have the ability to move on from Sid, Malkin and Letang. This is what I view as the "Rangers" model.

# 2. Accumulate and Wait: This is what I believe Dubas is doing because of the above. He's waiting out Sid, Malkin and Letang's contracts and accumulating picks and prospects so that he can hopefully make a quick rebuild once Sid retires. This what I view as the "Kings" model.

# 3. Try and Compete: This is what I would be doing. This doesn't necessarily mean you are trading 1sts ever year, but it also means you aren't taking on absolutely worthless players like Hayes for picks. You're building a culture where the focus is on winning and if you aren't able to do it, you blow up pieces of the team as you can. This season it would've meant moving out Rakell for futures that you can then reallocate into pieces to win. This is what I view as the "Washington" model.

 

[SEALBound]

Timmins mentioned in the SA case against WJC as a witness. Not sure what that means. Details are pretty gross.

So was Makar.

That entire trial is gonna be a mess. Such as shitty situation to roll out in court to determine "guilt".

 

[OtherThingsILike]

I think the Penguins have three pathes.

# 1. Tear Down Rebuild: I don't think they can do this because they are unwilling (rightfully so) and do not have the ability to move on from Sid, Malkin and Letang. This is what I view as the "Rangers" model.

# 2. Accumulate and Wait: This is what I believe Dubas is doing because of the above. He's waiting out Sid, Malkin and Letang's contracts and accumulating picks and prospects so that he can hopefully make a quick rebuild once Sid retires. This what I view as the "Kings" model.

# 3. Try and Compete: This is what I would be doing. This doesn't necessarily mean you are trading 1sts ever year, but it also means you aren't taking on absolutely worthless players like Hayes for picks. You're building a culture where the focus is on winning and if you aren't able to do it, you blow up pieces of the team as you can. This season it would've meant moving out Rakell for futures that you can then reallocate into pieces to win. This is what I view as the "Washington" model.

I like the way you broke it down. It's something to think about.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Timmins mentioned in the SA case against WJC as a witness. Not sure what that means. Details are pretty gross.

What's this?

 

[Gurglesons]

What's this?

The WJC junior team allegedly sexually assaulted someone in a group.

 

[Khelandros]

I like Lizotte

You know who else likes Lizzote? The IR.

 

[Peat]

I think the Penguins have three pathes.

# 1. Tear Down Rebuild: I don't think they can do this because they are unwilling (rightfully so) and do not have the ability to move on from Sid, Malkin and Letang. This is what I view as the "Rangers" model.

# 2. Accumulate and Wait: This is what I believe Dubas is doing because of the above. He's waiting out Sid, Malkin and Letang's contracts and accumulating picks and prospects so that he can hopefully make a quick rebuild once Sid retires. This what I view as the "Kings" model.

# 3. Try and Compete: This is what I would be doing. This doesn't necessarily mean you are trading 1sts ever year, but it also means you aren't taking on absolutely worthless players like Hayes for picks. You're building a culture where the focus is on winning and if you aren't able to do it, you blow up pieces of the team as you can. This season it would've meant moving out Rakell for futures that you can then reallocate into pieces to win. This is what I view as the "Washington" model.

I am fine with #2 - which I agree looks to be the model - because when Dubas came here, the system was so damn empty and the cap so clogged up that competing looked a real long shot. I am okay with him taking one last shot at 3, then pivoting to 2 when it didn't work. I hope he moves back out of to 3 before Sid is done, but to a certain extent that depends on how well they do things. If McGroarty/Koivunen/a goalie all pan out next season and they turn the LD into a non-bucket of shit, then I think they'll go back to 3 whether they like it or not.

 

[Gurglesons]

I am fine with #2 - which I agree looks to be the model - because when Dubas came here, the system was so damn empty and the cap so clogged up that competing looked a real long shot. I am okay with him taking one last shot at 3, then pivoting to 2 when it didn't work. I hope he moves back out of to 3 before Sid is done, but to a certain extent that depends on how well they do things. If McGroarty/Koivunen/a goalie all pan out next season and they turn the LD into a non-bucket of shit, then I think they'll go back to 3 whether they like it or not.

The issue with # 2 is our core is 38+ and the tea leaves are bending towards us moving our # 1 D in EK65.

2 worked for LA because Kopitar and Doughty are still relevant and they had some pieces like Kempe floating around.

IMO 2 is just wasting time before you have to do 1.

 

[Peat]

The issue with # 2 is our core is 38+ and the tea leaves are bending towards us moving our # 1 D in EK65.

2 worked for LA because Kopitar and Doughty are still relevant and they had some pieces like Kempe floating around.

IMO 2 is just wasting time before you have to do 1.

And trying to do 3 was also wasting time. I like the odds of 2 working out better than 3.

 

[Gurglesons]

And trying to do 3 was also wasting time. I like the odds of 2 working out better than 3.

I don't think getting to the playoffs is a waste of time.

That's probably where I defer amongst a lot of people that believe in Dubas.

I don't think there really is an intelligent path to being a contending teams besides having intelligent staff and player evaluation.

Nothing in Dubas' history makes me think that he has the ability to do that, so I'd rather be a team making the playoffs with the off chance everything comes together like it did for Rutherford.