Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXVI: End of season wrap up

[Empoleon8771]

You likely get a big return for him as a UFA if he can continue to produce here.

I don't see why his return would be much different as a UFA with 1 year at $5 million left compared to this off-season with 2 years at $5 million left.

 

[IcedCapp]

The Penguins are better off with getting nothing back for Karlsson and having $10 million in cap space to use on younger players and take on bad contracts for assets.

What exactly does keeping Karlsson accomplish? The team sucks and should be trying to accrue as many talented young pieces as possible, so any sort of addition he gives them with his offense probably hurts more than it helps.

Yeah, I'm not getting the angst over Karlsson at all. If you did a chart of the most-complained about players last year, he would be no lower than 3rd (behind Jarry and Letang) and it's possible, given Jarry's long absence and Letang's expectations, that EK is #1. There aren't even really glimpses of him being the kind of player who could help THIS team have success. Now, I want to be clear I'm specifying THIS team, because I do think he's good enough to help some other team have a successful season/post-season run, but we do not have the necessary players to get the best out of him. So whatever our plans for next year are: contend, rebuild, relocate, disband, EK doesn't need to be on the roster for any of them.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't see why his return would be much different as a UFA with 1 year at $5 million left compared to this off-season with 2 years at $5 million left.

the post you made that I was responding to said “we should give him away for nothing”.

 

[Empoleon8771]

the post you made that I was responding to said “we should give him away for nothing”.

I was responding to the previous post of "the value to the team is keeping him". I just don't see how keeping him gives them any sort of value. They'd be better off with his cap hit off the books because they can use that money to accrue more assets like the Glass and Hayes trades.

They should just retain like half of his deal and sell him for futures, which they should be able to get something decent for him. I just don't think there is a way you can argue that the best value for Karlsson is keeping him with where this team is at.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I just don't think there is a way you can argue that the best value for Karlsson is keeping him with where this team is at.

I mean by waiting to trade him in a year or even 2 years from now… less term on his deal should = more value

also my hot take — I think a guy like Pickering would benefit immensely just getting stapled to him. Gets him on offense, makes him learn to play with a more transition/offensive oriented defender (which will be who he plays with down the road). Oh no he gets hung out to dry by EK sometimes— good. Learn to defend and be responsible. Gets him playing with top 6 forwards while taking a lot of puck moving pressure off him too.

I think if you can afford to wait on Raks, Rust for a good return you can absolutely do the same for EK65.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I think there is this misconception that a quick retool happens overnight in one offseason.

It doesn't.

It still takes a couple of years. That's just different than being terrible for five or six years and finally crawling out of the cellar in the seventh year.

For all intents and purposes, Dubas' first offseason can be thrown out the window. That served a different purpose. His retool started with the Guentzel trade. It continued with the Pettersson trade. Next up will be Karlsson, who becomes much more attractive to teams once his bonus is paid on July 1.

Rakell's list of suitors is likely larger now than it was at the deadline, too - both for cap reasons, and for teams who struggled down the stretch and want to make a move.

And Rust's NTC expires July 1.

So there is still substantial opportunity to sell pieces off and accumulate more assets while also acquiring younger talent.

 

[Ugene Magic]

He literally did not say that.

He also never said that he wouldn't ask Karlsson to waive his NMC.

"Obviously, with my situation, I have full say on whether anything happens or not," Karlsson said following Pittsburgh's 6-5 overtime loss to the Toronto Maple Leafs on Sunday, per. "I have not been asked, and until I do get asked, whenever that is, and if that is, I'll take a stance.

"Until then, I'm not worrying about it. I have nothing to worry about because I would be the first one to know, I'm sure. Then, I'll deal with that situation if that occurs. Up until now, it hasn't. It hasn't been on my mind, and it's not something that I'm walking around thinking about." Erik Karlsson

"Erik is and will forever be a polarizing figure. My view would be we expect him to be one of the people who pulls us from where we're at into contention. I had a long meeting with him... my push would be his actions have to match his ambitions.

"He showed throughout the year that he has another level to him. He had moments of great play with too many inconsistencies. We have to push him to get here," Dubas added.

Dubas: Penguins’ Revamp Ready to Enter Next Phase

Dubas said he did not ask any of the five players with active no-movement clauses — Sidney Crosby, Evgeni Malkin, Kris Letang, Erik Karlsson and Bryan Rust — to waive those, and that he did not receive offers attractive enough for any of the half-dozen players with modified no-trade clauses that he felt compelled to ask them to waive that provision in their contracts.

Of the guys with no-movement clauses, Karlsson was the most frequent subject of pre-deadline speculation, but while Dubas alluded to his inconsistent play and frequent defensive lapses, he said Karlsson “is not a player we would just look to move along” because of the pluses in his game.

“He’s such a talented player,” Dubas said. “I know that, night-in and night-out, like our team is this year, he can be a little up and down. But his skating continues to be among the best in the league. Obviously, offensively and puck movement continues to be at the level … we have to keep pushing him. I think he can be a part of helping our team continue to move along.”

If there was a point of time to ask him to waive, the meeting he had with him was the time to ask if he would waive leading up to the draft/summer.

I sense there's no interests in trading him. Everyone is trying to grasp at straws in the tea leaves.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Dubas: Penguins’ Revamp Ready to Enter Next Phase



If there was a point of time to ask him to waive, the meeting he had with him was the time to ask if he would waive leading up to the draft/summer.

I sense there's no interests in trading him. Everyone is trying to grasp at straws in the tea leaves.

So thanks for providing the quotes that shows that Dubas did not say he wouldn't ask Karlsson to waive his NMC.

 

[IcedCapp]

I think there is this misconception that a quick retool happens overnight in one offseason.

It doesn't.

It still takes a couple of years. That's just different than being terrible for five or six years and finally crawling out of the cellar in the seventh year.

For all intents and purposes, Dubas' first offseason can be thrown out the window. That served a different purpose. His retool started with the Guentzel trade. It continued with the Pettersson trade. Next up will be Karlsson, who becomes much more attractive to teams once his bonus is paid on July 1.

Rakell's list of suitors is likely larger now than it was at the deadline, too - both for cap reasons, and for teams who struggled down the stretch and want to make a move.

And Rust's NTC expires July 1.

So there is still substantial opportunity to sell pieces off and accumulate more assets while also acquiring younger talent.

IT'S BEEN 84 YEARS

 

[Ugene Magic]

So thanks for providing the quotes that shows that Dubas did not say he wouldn't ask Karlsson to waive his NMC.

I'm pretty sure it's implied.

Reading the tea leaves... a different way.

 

[Peat]

Tbh, I'd have assumed the time to ask most players whether they'll waive trade clauses (aka tell them you don't want them) is when you've got the trade in place and their thumbs up is pretty much the last obstacle. Surely nobody wants to ask someone to waive their NMC and then come back and go "jk, nobody else wants you either".

 

[Jared Grayden]

Tbh, I'd have assumed the time to ask most players whether they'll waive trade clauses (aka tell them you don't want them) is when you've got the trade in place and their thumbs up is pretty much the last obstacle. Surely nobody wants to ask someone to waive their NMC and then come back and go "jk, nobody else wants you either".

That's exactly when they're asking. In Karlsson's case, I think he would be pretty flexible and waive so long as it is a legit contender. Don't think he would do it for another questionable team like Pittsburgh was back in 2023.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Dubas: Penguins’ Revamp Ready to Enter Next Phase



If there was a point of time to ask him to waive, the meeting he had with him was the time to ask if he would waive leading up to the draft/summer.

I sense there's no interests in trading him. Everyone is trying to grasp at straws in the tea leaves.

From July 1, 2023:
"Kyle Dubas said that Jeff Petry is a “huge part” of the plan for next season."



A month later, Petry was back in Montreal as part of the Karlsson trade before being sent to Detroit.

 

[SEALBound]

I’m actually a big Dubas fan, don’t have any issues with his tenure so far, outside of his first off-season signings, but I find it funny that he can (correctly) say to EK: if you want to be in the playoffs, play better, but he, or the organization, won’t hold the coaching staff to the same standards

I meant to say this yesterday when we were dishing about the presser but there was a comment that Dubas made that perked my ears. I wouldn't say he was throwing shade at Sullivan but it was interesting non-the-less. This is the AI gen quote from it:

"Defensive issues are likely a combination of personnel and coaching. It's an organizational matter that needs addressing. We must improve the personnel on the back end, but defending isn't just about the six or seven defensemen dressed each night. It requires the entire group's buy-in—forwards backtracking, covering for one another, and executing the system. The defensive system itself may need adaptation. For example, a man-to-man scheme requires different player attributes than a zone-based system, like Boston has historically used. A man-to-man system demands mobility, while a zone system prioritizes size and reach. This leads to discussions between management and coaching about what personnel is needed to execute the desired system and whether that system will get us back to where we want to be. It's a partnership between management and coaching to align the roster and strategy effectively."

What I took from that was "hey, here's who we have. If your system isn't getting it done, you need to alter your system a bit to accommodate".

What I don't want is Sully dictating the type of players he wants Dubas to bring in to run his system. That's how you get to the "two offensive lines and two defense only lines" like we saw last year and it crashed and burned. Dubas even admitted that building the team that Sully wanted was dumb.

Dubas: Penguins’ Revamp Ready to Enter Next Phase



If there was a point of time to ask him to waive, the meeting he had with him was the time to ask if he would waive leading up to the draft/summer.

I sense there's no interests in trading him. Everyone is trying to grasp at straws in the tea leaves.

I don't think that's a hard discussion to bring up either. "Hey Erik, you know where we are at. We're not competing anytime soon. This team wants you and they have a better chance. Do you want to move on to pursue a cup or stay here?"

Pretty easy. I imagine if it's Carolina, he'd go.

 

[Ugene Magic]

From July 1, 2023:
"Kyle Dubas said that Jeff Petry is a “huge part” of the plan for next season."



A month later, Petry was back in Montreal as part of the Karlsson trade before being sent to Detroit.

Petry was a complete disaster and as far as I see it, there's no perceived top scoring D-man being pursued in Karlsson's case.

This brings to bear, the true expectations (lofty ones) put on Karlssons play here. Did anyone expect him to be his 101 points here? No... Everyone knew he was a one time effort after being injured so much as a Shark and he had to share a puck once again, he wasn't sitting second fiddle to Burns. But Crosby, Malkin and Letang takes away from him just going coast to coast as a one man show.

I don't see the comparison. They should have never traded for Petry in the first place.

They have other aspects too, like the Global series in Sweden.

A lot of stuff that rebuff claims to move on from him.<---reading the tea leaves

One situation does not equal another, because Petry was absolutely ass/slow for the Pens

 

[DesertedPenguin]

One situation does not equal another, because Petry was absolutely ass/slow for the Pens

Performance doesn't matter in this discussion.

The crucial issue is that you stated there appears to be no interest in trading Karlsson, yet there are examples where Dubas has outright said a player has a big role to play in the future of the Penguins and then traded that player a month later.

I don't think anyone can say with any certainty what will happen, but I don't think anyone should have the impression that Karlsson's a lock to stay with the Penguins.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Performance doesn't matter in this discussion.

The crucial issue is that you stated there appears to be no interest in trading Karlsson, yet there are examples where Dubas has outright said a player has a big role to play in the future of the Penguins and then traded that player a month later.

I don't think anyone can say with any certainty what will happen, but I don't think anyone should have the impression that Karlsson's a lock to stay with the Penguins.

Sure, it does because, it is why Karlsson was brought in for. performance based. And he has proven to be worth the risk, though, I feel they could have gotten him a little cheaper.

Also, Dubas isn't just going to sell off to just get rid of him. He's not taking some dump trade. If that was the case, he could have traded him at the deadline. The trade to costs doesn't add up in the Pens favor. Trading the best player never does. Trading him at 50% for a meager return does nothing, which most here seem happy to do just for the sake of doing it.

I'm as close to saying he won't be traded as one can be. Maybe I eat some crow.... I'm betting I'm not.

 

[Gurglesons]

• Karlsson was so bad during much of this season that many people within the Penguins organization were stunned. His first season in Pittsburgh was, in a word, underwhelming. His second season, while not completely disastrous, was not anything close to acceptable for a likely Hall of Fame player. Dubas made it clear during his season-ending news conference that he wasn’t pleased by Karlsson’s performance.

The Yohe dunking continues. Will be sad to see when EK65 goes because Yohe will actually have to do journalism again instead of just blaming EK and Hextall for everything.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Sure, it does because, it is why Karlsson was brought in for. performance based. And he has proven to be worth the risk, though, I feel they could have gotten him a little cheaper.

Also, Dubas isn't just going to sell off to just get rid of him. He's not taking some dump trade. If that was the case, he could have traded him at the deadline. The trade to costs doesn't add up in the Pens favor. Trading the best player never does. Trading him at 50% for a meager return does nothing, which most here seem happy to do just for the sake of doing it.

I'm as close to saying he won't be traded as one can be. Maybe I eat some crow.... I'm betting I'm not.

My point is that it doesn't matter why Karlsson was brought here. What matters is what happens moving forward. No one is suggesting he'll be moved as a cap dump. He has value.

But his value is highest after July 1. He gets paid a bonus at that point, after which he's owed very little actual salary for the remainder of his contract. The cap hit doesn't change, but teams absolutely pay attention to what a player is actually owed in real dollars. There is also a larger market of teams at this stage than there were at the deadline, simply because of the higher cap.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Karlsson was definitely horrendous for the first 2 or so months of the season, but saying it's "much of the season" is pretty ridiculous from Yohe. That said, seeing him immediately dominate with Sweden and be underwhelming with the Penguins around it should definitely make the organization pretty unhappy with Karlsson.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I don't really believe that Mike Sullivan's system is going to allow a player like EK to play to his potential. Skill players in general that like to go off the reservation for that matter. And if the Penguins did not WANT what his potential is they should have never bothered in the first place.

 

[Jared Grayden]

Karlsson was definitely horrendous for the first 2 or so months of the season, but saying it's "much of the season" is pretty ridiculous from Yohe. That said, seeing him immediately dominate with Sweden and be underwhelming with the Penguins around it should definitely make the organization pretty unhappy with Karlsson.

Team Sweden is stacked with defensively responsible teammates. The Penguins are one of the weakest defensive lineups in the league. Even if you're disappointed with Karlsson, I do not know how anyone could think trading him will not make the defense worse next year. Letang was way worse than Karlsson was this year. At his age he'll probably be even worse next year. I have no problem trading him at all for futures. But I hope fans are prepared to have an even worse defense.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

lol this team's decision makers and Letang himself will probably insist that once his ticker gets bandaged up that he'll be due for a dominating season at nearly 40 and they can do without EK. That seems like about the levels of delusion we're at, here.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I know Karlsson's bread and butter is his offense and he shouldn't be relied upon to be good defensively, but I have a harder and harder time just waiving away his defensive issues entirely when he's making $11.5 million a year and isn't even breaking 60 points.

He played with Pettersson for the first 2/3 of the season, who's one of the better top-4 DFD in the league, and was still shit at times with him.

 

[Gurglesons]

Karlsson was definitely horrendous for the first 2 or so months of the season, but saying it's "much of the season" is pretty ridiculous from Yohe. That said, seeing him immediately dominate with Sweden and be underwhelming with the Penguins around it should definitely make the organization pretty unhappy with Karlsson.

The Penguins are pathetic and if they blame EK65 for his play that is on them. EK65 is the exact player he was in San Jose and Ottawa. He's 10th in 5v5 production since joining the Penguins.

71 defensemen have played 2500+ 5v5 minutes. EK65 is 6th in terms of on ice goals and 5th in xGF per 60.

I have no idea what the f*** the Penguins thought they were getting or wanted from EK65 if this wasn't it.