Salary Cap: 24-25 Salary Thread Crosbicles Volume MXVI: End of season wrap up

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Mike Sullivan = boogeyman

Oh come on really?

The dude has had his fingerprints all over this failure of a team for years. I get people are tired of hearing about it but that's a pretty dismissive attitude.

 

[SEALBound]

Trade for Xhekaj, trade for McDermid, trade for M. Foligno, sign Reeves. Play the kids in prominent roles.

That's my new dream scenario for next season.

If you can't beat em, BEAT em!

Love this, but, the defense still sucks. I'd rather use our pick on a C instead of Eklund and trade that package of picks to BUF for Byram.

McKenna Sid Koivunen
McGroarty OBrien Howard
Hallander Borque Tomasino

Byram Brunicke
Pickering Timmins
Pieniniemi Letang
Harding

Yeah, I didn't focus on the defense at all. I assumed a couple things that didn't make it in the post:
1. There will be a LD trade eventually.
2. When we trade EK and Rakell, there will be at least one roster LD coming back.
3. We will draft some dmen with those 2nds and 3rds.
4. Pickering, Brunicke, Pie, and possibly Harding will be available for 2nd/3rd pairing duties.
5. We will follow the general frame work of - get the forwards in place, then build the back end from there.

Who decided to let this bum into the top 100?

I think they were careful not to embarrass themselves again by making him #26.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Oh come on really?

The dude has had his fingerprints all over this failure of a team for years. I get people are tired of hearing about it but that's a pretty dismissive attitude.

I think we are overestimating how much the coach matters. Both positively and negatively.

Graves being a bum isn’t remotely on Sully and doesn’t deserve a 2nd chance even a little.

If he gets one it’s because it’s a business and they have an interest in “rehabbing” him dude to his contract. Not because everyone has prescribed all failures on the coach when in reality the players haven’t been good enough either. You are correct am I very tired of hearing it, even as someone who is happy he’s fired.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think we are overestimating how much the coach matters. Both positively and negatively.

Graves being a bum isn’t remotely on Sully and doesn’t deserve a 2nd chance even a little.

If he gets one it’s because it’s a business and they have an interest in “rehabbing” him dude to his contract. Not because everyone has prescribed all failures on the coach when in reality the players haven’t been good enough either. You are correct am I very tired of hearing it, even as someone who is happy he’s fired.

I actually agree with the first couple points. We DO overestimate the impact of a coach. I think that in the end it's mostly on talent and drafting/development and the coach basically acts as a like... facilitator? He does enough to move things along and try to find competitive edges via systems/lineups but not enough to get in the way. But that latter point can become an issue especially when you factor in ego/arrogance. In other words coaches are kind of borderline non-factors right up to the point when they start to get in the way... then they are working against you and not providing that little edge that a good coach is capable of finding.

I don't have any hope for Graves personally. But I suppose my larger point is that there should be some grace for a lot of these guys and we should be at least curious how they look under the next guy because we've definitely seen jumps in performance with the new coach bump in the past. It's true that we overstate their impact but they CAN provide just enough of a change to snap players out of ruts. Especially guys that we know SHOULD be better than this.

I'm sorry you don't like hearing about it. But it's an inescapable point to be made. This team IS a Mike Sullivan hockey team. It is impossible in many ways to separate the two.

EDIT: Do I think Mystery Coach Guy is gonna make this a playoff team? lol no

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I'm sorry you don't like hearing about it. But it's an inescapable point to be made. This team IS a Mike Sullivan hockey team. It is impossible in many ways to separate the two.

This is kinda my point tho.

Can’t agree with the quoted at all hence the “boogeyman” reference. Do I agree with how Sullivan used everyone? Hell no. He needed to go 4 years ago. But at the same time he doesn’t build the roster or play the games. Like I blame him for a lot but Graves being complete dogshit is when I’m like “ok people Sully owns too much RE in your heads”. Fully a Dubas player eval problem and a Graves being a bum problem.

Or this still being a Sully team.

I really feel like this board has inverse Yohe-ed this topic. Like he’s not remotely the negative end all be all yall make him out to be. Just like he’s not this genius god of coaching and Sid’s binky Yohe makes him out to be. Think a lot of it is cope for mismanagement and players coming up short. IMO.

But maybe you’re right.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This is kinda my point tho.

Can’t agree with the quoted at all hence the “boogeyman” reference. Do I agree with how Sullivan used everyone? Hell no. He needed to go 4 years ago. But at the same time he doesn’t build the roster or play the games. Like I blame him for a lot but Graves being complete dogshit is when I’m like “ok people Sully owns too much RE in your heads”. Fully a Dubas player eval problem and a Graves being a bum problem.

Or this still being a Sully team.

I really feel like this board has inverse Yohe-ed this topic. Like he’s not remotely the negative end all be all yall make him out to be. Just like he’s not this genius god of coaching and Sid’s binky Yohe makes him out to be. Think a lot of it is cope for mismanagement and players coming up short. IMO.

But maybe you’re right.

I guess that's where we disagree. I think Sullivan absolutely had a huge part in building the roster we all hate so much and that is the biggest relief to me having him out the door. I think it's a little off to NOT think one of the most powerful and tenured coaches in the whole league didn't have major sway in roster construction. I'm not saying every floater on the team was his idea... Dubas doesn't get a free pass, here... but I definitely think that this is largely the roster he wanted. Heck I have to imagine that a big part of the reason that Dubas canned him is he was no longer interested in his roster "demands" or whatever you want to call them. He was like a bartender cutting off the drunk who wanted another shot of Malort.

As for the rest I guess I'll just talk about food again? Like I said... this isn't about Graves specifically... he stinks and likely simply will continue to stink. It's more like I wouldn't be surprised if the next guy looks at someone like Graves, assess him correctly and figures out a way to at least HIDE the stink a little bit if that makes sense.

 

[sauce66871]

Wouldn’t be a bad year to try to sign an RFA in the 2nd or 3rd round pick compensation range seeing we have multiple next year.

Bourque, Samberg, Lohrei, Laferriere… there’s a decent crop to try and poach two players. Would be awesome to add two players to help now at those prices if extensions don’t go well with their respective teams.

 

[Trade]

I just want Dubas to offer sheet someone fun like Cuylie.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

My stance is pretty much this; A great coach isn't gonna coach a bad roster to anything significant, but a bad coach can absolutely ratf*** the potential of a good roster.

Luckily for us as fans, both have sucked for about half a decade or more. The FO regimes that have rolled through, coupled with Sullivan's coaching/roster construction influence, have made sure the final decade of Sid/Geno hockey ended up at max misery. Cool!

 

[The GM]

'Deserves' is maybe a strong word, but yes, I think he should be given another shot. Graves is just kind of a dummy and they asked him to make reads and react. Task him with clearing the crease, throwing his body in front of the puck, and throwing a couple slappers on net and I think he can still be a useful player. Still a mistake given the cap and term, but he's big, strong, and skates well for his size. He can be a fine 3LD.

Graves is strong?

 

[Victor Z]

Yeah Graves sucks here, but many of the people commenting on him appear to think he was the one wearing #73 last year.

 

[eXile3]

Real question. What defense men didn’t look awful this year for us? It kind of felt like it was in part a systemic issue because they all sucked.

 

[pistolpete11]

You can't pin all of Graves' shortcomings on Sullivan, and the GM deserves some criticism for the fit in the first place, but yeah. Sullivan sucks and dragged down EVERYONE (except Bryan Rust, of course). So I don't think it's unreasonable for Graves to bounce back to something respectable.

 

[PamBallam]

I'd hate to see Sid in anything but a Pens jersey, but he would be literally exactly what the Avs have been desperately hunting: an elite C that can carry the 2nd line.

 

[SEALBound]

You can't pin all of Graves' shortcomings on Sullivan, and the GM deserves some criticism for the fit in the first place, but yeah. Sullivan sucks and dragged down EVERYONE (except Bryan Rust, of course). So I don't think it's unreasonable for Graves to bounce back to something respectable.

I do think Graves could be successful elsewhere. With this roster and system? No.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think Sullivan's system absolutely hurt the defensive structure of the team as a whole, but Graves has just been horrid ever since he signed the deal.

He's basically just Ruhwedel if Ruhdwedel was 6'5" instead of 5'11". Not a good puck mover, not good offensively, not good defensively, not physical....he's literally just an ultra vanilla guy who just happens to be 6'5" and getting paid about 4x what he's worth.

 

[Freeptop]

I do think Graves could be successful elsewhere. With this roster and system? No.

I'm not saying that I think it will make a difference, mind you, but I will point out that we don't know what the system for the team is now. That's going to be up to the new coach, after all.

Do I expect it to still end up being offensive-oriented? Yes, the Pens' DNA basically requires that. But that doesn't mean it's going to work the same as Sullivan's system; there are a lot of ways to run a system that is still primarily geared towards offense, after all.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

I think Graves might - might - be the type of player who would benefit from a new coach with a much simpler and more structured system to play in.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I think the bigger issue is that Graves needs a much, much better (and specific type of) defensive partner to get the most out of him than the Penguins can or should give him tbh.

 

[Darren McCord]

I'd hate to see Sid in anything but a Pens jersey, but he would be literally exactly what the Avs have been desperately hunting: an elite C that can carry the 2nd line.

The Avs had a elite winger to carry that line and they traded him away. Also every team in this league needs an elite 2nd line center. Avs played this season bad. They don't deserve Sid.

 

[Pancakes]

I remember Graves talking about how the Devils system when he was on them involved forwards coming deep into the zone to be outlets on the breakout, and that he struggled at first with the Pens who relied more on longer stretch passes.

So it's no surprise that Graves struggled in a system that asked more of him from a puck handling perspective.

We even saw the same thing to a degree with Rantanen who is a much better player than Graves and who basically intimated that the high octane forechecking/shot volume game of the Hurricanes wasn't really a good fit for how he likes to play.

The Pens had great success during the b2b cups in part because at that time Sullivan's style of play and system fit the Pens roster like a glove.

So I wouldn't be totally surprised if a new coach comes in here and makes Erik Karlsson look like a million bucks. Or fixes Graves. Or puts in a system that makes Jarry look like less of a turd (maybe just a polished turd instead of a stinky one). We could also see a case where Dubas brings in a coach who makes the roster look even worse than Sullivan did.

Now, some guys just suck. Kapanen was trash here and he continued to be trash after leaving the Pens apart from one small stretch where he shot 20%. Brock McGinn continued to suck after leaving here. Kevin Hayes sucked before he came here and still sucks now that he's here.

But I wouldn't be surprised to see some guys have bounce back seasons now that Sullivan is gone.

 

[eXile3]

You can't pin all of Graves' shortcomings on Sullivan, and the GM deserves some criticism for the fit in the first place, but yeah. Sullivan sucks and dragged down EVERYONE (except Bryan Rust, of course). So I don't think it's unreasonable for Graves to bounce back to something respectable.

Yeah it can be both things. The system and the player. I wasn’t a fan of the Graves signing to begin with but maybe you can get better from him if used differently in a more defensive system.

There really wasn’t any structure at all last year.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'd hate to see Sid in anything but a Pens jersey, but he would be literally exactly what the Avs have been desperately hunting: an elite C that can carry the 2nd line.

Who. Cares. They can overpay for Sam Bennett. This storyline needs to die.

I think Graves might - might - be the type of player who would benefit from a new coach with a much simpler and more structured system to play in.

Yeah it can be both things. The system and the player. I wasn’t a fan of the Graves signing to begin with but maybe you can get better from him if used differently in a more defensive system.

There really wasn’t any structure at all last year.

Graves was solid in both Colorado and New Jersey. Neither team was practicing a strict defensive style. He played with a good/great D partner, but that is what he is...a complementary defenseman. I have to assume Dubas viewed him as such when he signed him. And Dubas has two right defensemen who, ON PAPER, one would think would be perfect for Graves.

I don't know if Mr. new coach is going to try that again, whether Dubas is going to move on from Graves if he can, or if Graves will continue to be a third-pairing D-man/No. 7 defenseman on this team. All I know is without Mike Sullivan coaching this team, we have options again.

Also, we should not assume that a player is done because there are loads of examples of players whose careers seemed finished but were revived with a simple coaching change or systematic shifts.

Let's wait and see.

 

[OtherThingsILike]

Graves was solid in both Colorado and New Jersey. Neither team was practicing a strict defensive style. He played with a good/great D partner, but that is what he is...a complementary defenseman. I have to assume Dubas viewed him as such when he signed him. And Dubas has two right defensemen who, ON PAPER, one would think would be perfect for Graves.

Graves isn't a defensive defenseman. If he had been, either Letang or Karlsson would've been perfect partners. Unfortunately, Graves is better suited as the offensive defenseman on the pairing. For instance, when he was paired with Marino, Marino was the defensive defenseman on the pairing, and the pairing worked.
I think they tried to re-mold Graves into a defensive defenseman, and that's part of the reason why it hasn't worked out so far.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Graves isn't a defensive defenseman. If he had been, either Letang or Karlsson would've been perfect partners. Unfortunately, Graves is better suited as the offensive defenseman on the pairing. For instance, when he was paired with Marino, Marino was the defensive defenseman on the pairing, and the pairing worked.
I think they tried to re-mold Graves into a defensive defenseman, and that's part of the reason why it hasn't worked out so far.

Considering that Graves has the offensive IQ of a canned ham and puts up only marginally more points than I do on the Penguins (shocking as it may be I do not play professional hockey for the Pittsburgh Penguins or any other organization)... it is both horribly confusing and sad that I agree wholeheartedly with this.